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Old 09-24-2013, 11:28 AM   #166
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Thumbs up Re: Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength...

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Originally Posted by MrBIG View Post
I think prayer to a lot of people is a form of meditation not an actually way to change god's will.

It's true that a lot of undeserving people are in pain in this world, but how much of that suffering is inflicted by other humans and the society we've created?

racism, murder, poverty, etc. Is mostly shit we've made up, God intervening would basically be robbing us of our free will.
What you say here is true, but the bible says that God listens to prayers and answers prayers. God intervening to save the life of someone shot in the face, involved in a car accident, or dying of cancer does not necessarily take away the free will of anyone. God saving someone who has been shot in the face is not necessarily taking the free will of that shooter to attempt to take that person's life. People live and die by chance all the time. God occasionally intervening to remove tumors from your body, tighten your seat belt before impact with a drunk driver, or guide the mugger's bullet from striking your brain anywhere that might cause death would not necessarily be taking away anyone's free will unless he was repeatedly taking away that mugger's free will to kill you, assuming that the mugger has tried at least once more after failing the first time, since it is not unusual for people to survive gunshot wounds even in the face.

Honestly, all God would have to do is show his face, turn some water into wine, and do a few magic tricks that even Chris Angel couldn't pull off, and the world would know for sure that he exists, and that alone would make the world a better place. He could say, "Hey, no more suicide bombings. There won't be any virgins waiting for you in hell when you get there," and voila, peace in the Middle East. He doesn't even have to take away free will from anyone to intervene and make the world a better place or just make the lives better for people of his choosing, which most religions teach that he does anyway. People pray to him and praise him for what they believe are his miracles and blessings.


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Originally Posted by MrBIG View Post
He loves us enough to let us pick our own path. Free will becomes an illusion if he intervenes at all.



That's not even the view of most Christians nor the catholic church.
Even the pope said that atheists could reach salvation. Meaning that what you believe in doesnt matter but it's the way you lead your life. Your actions that matter.
Churches teaching that God answers prayers and plays a role in our daily lives creates an illusion of him intervening.
"Sister Rita was mugged in the parking lot, and the safety was off the gun, and the mugger pulled the trigger, and the barrel was right in her face, but the gun jammed."
"God made the gun jam. He prevented that mean old mugger from shooting sister Rita in the face. It was a miracle."
"I'm not going to fear those muggers no more. God will protect me late at night while I'm walking to my car."

What the pope said has always been common-sense thinking to me, in my ideal perception of God. The God I imagined as a kid wouldn't give a shit which region you claimed to follow. He wouldn't give a shit about how much money you donated to your church and wrote off on your taxes, helping your church or pastor get rich or richer while setting yourself up for a possible refund. As long as you lived life in a moral manner, you'd go to heaven whether or not you ever prayed to him a day in your life. And all those who molested children, along with the popes and other church officials who knew about it and protected their fellow men of God, would all go to hell no matter how many Hail Marys and confessions they did. This is kid of how I imagined God until I realized that the bible was just a bunch of fairy-tale stories that rarely made common sense.
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Old 09-24-2013, 12:22 PM   #167
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Re: Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength...

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I always found free will a paradoxical excuse for God's inactivity. Not only in the Bible he intervened a lot of times, free will actually breaks one of his statuses: if free will is applied and he's omni-benevolent, then he isn't omnipotent since he isn't capable of intervening even with free will; if free will is applied and he's omnipotent, then he isn't omni-benevolent because he has the capacity of intervening even with free will but doesn't do so.

And, to be honest, I've seen people excusing child rape with free will, so fuck that notion.

Too bad the Bible is packed with verse condemning unbelievers to death and/or God's smite. So if that's not the view of most Christians or the Pope's, please update your moral codex.

Sorry I've been away.. this conversation has really surprised me.First I want to comment on sin and what I know it to be. And again this is my own personal belief and isn't any christian doctrine.

I was reading this book ..it was some government thriller by that guy who did deception point. Any way there was this small banter in the book and dude and his wife always did correspondence ending in the term " Without wax" which is what Sincerely means. Sin meaning without and Cera meaning wax. In the past if a stone statue was perfect then it was said to be without wax, meaning it didn't have any blemishes that would require wax to fill in the imperfections.

The key point I honed in on was Sin meant without. I was in Wal-mart in the laundry aisle and saw the Spanish translation on some fragrance free detergent said "sin Fragrancia"

So I came to the conclusion that sin just means without.. which makes sin not only an action but also a state of being.

Your body here on earth is not in heaven .. where God dwells, we are essentially "without his presence".. so what does this mean. it means that Sin is in the flesh. the mere fact that you're born here on earth means that you are without God thus born into a state of sin.

Now as for the action part look at what are considered to be sins, Stealing, Lying, Coveting, Killing, Suicide. How do they equate to being sins

Stealing- you tried to provide "on your own" without god

Lying- God is truth the reason humans could no longer stay in the garden was because they caused sin to enter the world. ** whatever power the Juubi tree fruit" had it tainted eve and Adam to the point where they could no longer withstand gods glory (yes I just wove Naruto into this.. it is the Naruto section after-all)

Coveting- not trusting god to do for you what he has done for others

Killing- intervening and ending life before God. thus you become a counter to his will

Suicide- same as killing but is a serious slap in gods face because you take his gift of life and throw it away

Quote:
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Here are three people without opinions I disagree with, but I honestly hold HR in higher consideration. He as the most outrageous statements, the less versed arguments and several leaps of logic, but he has what the other two don't have: self-awareness and honesty. He's the first to admit his case is faulty and that is what makes him comfortable, not what is right because he's right. On the other hand, we have KYF and MrBig, who continue to be two clueless boobs that pretend to have a clue and project towards and mock those who actually have a clue.
Also thanks for this.. I appreciate the fact that you understood where I was coming from
________________________________________ ____

As for the Free will argument God gave man free will to test his love for the lord. We through our trials and tribulations are tested by God sometimes and sometimes By Satan. this life is just the recruitment center for both armies. this war isn't a physical war but a war of ideology.

God wanted to give us a chance to gain power and a way to be with him forever so he pitched his plan and needed a savior to help us get back to him. Because once born on earth we wouldn't have any memory of our previous state as a spirit in heaven.

Satan spoke up first and said he would go down and show the way and when he got back at the end of existence the honor power and glory would be his because of what he had done.

The spirit of Jesus said he would come down show the way and the power and glory would remain God's. This pissed Lucifer off he gathered his army and they stormed God's thrown where he cast he and his followers out.

So this life needs free will so on judgement day it will be a clear case made for which camp you will fall into.

**again this is my personal understanding of the two topics and in no way claim to be a spokesman for any christian Muslim or Jew**
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Old 09-24-2013, 12:56 PM   #168
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Re: Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength...

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Originally Posted by Numinous View Post
Sorry, I'm not appealing to authority,
YES you ARE!!! You are asking for my credentials over actual evidence trying to argue that the authority of credentials PROVE something thus you are appealing to authority...

Quote:
you're the one claiming that a specialist's work is null without presenting a single proof you are qualified to do such a thing. That's why peer-reviewing exists and, if you are trying to refute a scientific paper, you should be a peer to do so since it's not a layman like the people in this forum that will debunk them.
STRAWMAN!!!

Never said the work is NULL and especially without EVIDENCE... The writer and studiers are forms of scientist YET did NOT even use ANY SCIENCE to PROVE ANYTHING, just give their own PERSONAL INTERPRETATIONS of the babies behavior LMAO...
As opposed to performing experiments to ACTUALLY Determine the Motivation and REASON for the behavior... Not just determine something form their own personal interpretations of the behavior based on nothing more the their opinion making their argument absolutely pathetic from a scientific point of view and considering I asked for PROOF of your claim and you gave me papers with personal interpretations, not actual science determining anything... You should understand why the papers are just crap and prove nothing other then the personal interpretations of the studiers which at beast an OPINION which is opposite of what I asked for...

Quote:
Sorry, credentials and/or scientific paper of your authorship or just admit your bullshit.
LAMO, i am wrong unless I have credentials/am an authority on the subject, thus an appeal to authority yet again...
Or, for some reason you think me just writing on paper on the subject would make me right, LMFAO!!! tha makes no sense considering the paper could be just like the ones you LINKED and be complete crap arguments based on opinion ad not FACT...

LAMO, you are a special one... Somehow either being an authority or having already written a paper on the subject makes you right while the quality and level of reason of the argument coupled with supporting evidence no longer matters...

Quote:
Proof YOU do not read:
I've been asking for the conditioned stimulus for almost a week, which would make the two stimuli I know that are required for conditioning. So your whining about presenting US and UR is idiotic considering you only have conditioning if you have CS.
1). Your full of shit and I already proved and now you are just ding more mental gymnastics...

2). LMAO, now it's the CS despite the whole time almost every post I have written it... Over and over explaining to you that seeing edo's over and over consistently within a two day time frame is the conditioned stimulus that is different from the UC stimulus of ONLY seeing an Edo rarely, thus the UC response of utter surprise...
And so, the CS of seeing edo after edo, over and over consistently for a coupled days will condition a response of Lesser surprise to the point is almost none because it is such a common thing to see dead people walking around...

But again, you will ignore this and ask for something I have given you tons of times to try and hide the FACT you are the one not reading...
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Old 09-24-2013, 01:43 PM   #169
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Re: Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength...

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I don't want to sound redundant but the concept of God may just be to keep society in check. I mean enough people follow it right? And there are those extremists bombing and shit but still they do follow it as the basic idea is to live a life doing good for people, at least that's what I got from it.
This is exactly right. it's a level of control. A real God exists and I can prove it right here right now. He just isn't the being you've been lead to believe He is.

God is mainly seen as this invisible force that guides you for his own purpose. He wants your love and worship. You all worship God and don't know it. You or someone you know got up today and went to work. but for what.. to pay for things, but before society people lived off the land but some power has taken that away with laws and government. How can I be charged for water or electricity or land when these elements belong to us all.

But We are compelled to do this.. we're forced to interact in some form or another moved and pushed to means that are unknown to us. We get distracted with the internet television PlayStations.. things we love and devote ourselves to. there is the media onslaught that he uses to control and sway.

God isn't some invisible sky man, He's a human being .. that sits in the most powerful chair in some backroom of a leader of leaders of nations.

Now the organized religion parts are to keep us docile and content with whats going on. We create god or gods as human beings.. we've done it throughout history.. some gods were invisible and others like Ramses you could walk right up to and touch.

The unseen force that extends is will.. It's what causes man to strive for success, all to achieve.. what.. and for what end

Now the spiritual god that we make /or has been made is a level of control as well it keeps people from destroying ourselves more that we already do. it's a deterrent that stops us from wiping ourselves out as a species
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Old 09-24-2013, 03:06 PM   #170
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Re: Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength...

you really butcherd this poppular quote by trying to insert "free will" in it.

Quote:
if free will is applied and he's omnibenevolent, then he isn't omnipotent since he isn't capable of intervening even with free will
He chooses NOT to intervene so we are capable of making our own choices.
Omnipotence doesn't stop inaction.
Quote:
; if free will is applied and he's omnipotent, then he isn't omnibenevolent because he has the capacity of intervening even with free will but doesn't do so.
He is omnibelovent because he chooses not to sacrifice our freewill by intervening. Free will being the most important characteristic to humans (and maybe every living creatures). It's the very basis of freedom.

Actively intervening in our affairs would only create an false peace. Peace from fear of god's divine intervention isn't peace at all.

It would be a keen to a totalitarian government regime. Sure no war, no famine, etc, all coming at the cost of the ability to make your own choices in life.

Quote:
And, to be honest, I've seen people excusing child rape with free will, so fuck that notion.
Don't even know where you're going with that one. In fact it further proves my point on how free will is important considering rape is sexual intercourse without consent (read: will) of one of the participants.

Quote:
Too bad the Bible is packed with verse condemning unbelievers to death and/or God's smite. So if that's not the view of most Christians or the Pope's, please update your moral codex.
If you're questioning the validity of my statement about the Pope's views then you're wrong.

"Given and this is the fundamental thing that God's mercy has no limits, if He is approached with a sincere and repentant heart," the pope wrote, "the question for those who do not believe in God is to abide by their own conscience. There is sin, also for those who have no faith, in going against one's conscience. Listening to it and abiding by it means making up one's mind about what is good and evil." The Guardian


In short, You may believe in god or not, whats most important is your actions in the eyes of God.
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Old 09-24-2013, 03:14 PM   #171
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Re: Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength...

And how does any of this actually matter in any way whatsoever to the distinction between agnostic and gnostic atheism, the distinction between atheism and anti-theism, and the nonexistence of "agnosticism"? You know, what was being discussed before this turned into a moral clusterfuck and arguments about denominational beliefs?
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Old 09-24-2013, 03:34 PM   #172
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Re: Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength...

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Originally Posted by AOTKorby View Post
And how does any of this actually matter in any way whatsoever to the distinction between agnostic and gnostic atheism, the distinction between atheism and anti-theism, and the nonexistence of "agnosticism"? You know, what was being discussed before this turned into a moral clusterfuck and arguments about denominational beliefs?
To be fair it started out about a discussion about God.

Then a discussion about atheism and agnosticism. It's only a natural progression of discourse if the other side of the coin is also brought up in discussion.

Not to mention the discussion about atheism/anti-theism/agnosticism, etc.. was mostly between me and num. Others were having their own arguments with their own subjects.
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Old 09-24-2013, 04:46 PM   #173
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Re: Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength...

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Originally Posted by AOTKorby View Post
And how does any of this actually matter in any way whatsoever to the distinction between agnostic and gnostic atheism, the distinction between atheism and anti-theism, and the nonexistence of "agnosticism"? You know, what was being discussed before this turned into a moral clusterfuck and arguments about denominational beliefs?
it may have to do with where this convo ends up. it's caused me to shift the argument based on what was said about sin and free will which has now gotten me to ponder and ask others to ponder what it means to be a God.

this has been one of the most enjoyable discussions I've had on here. everyone has stated their points and tried to remain somewhat civil. I even see people realizing a moot point of a talk with a brick wall and stopping the back and forth. if for nothing else alone than the social discourse I'd say the discussion is good on the whole.
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Old 09-24-2013, 05:55 PM   #174
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Re: Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength...

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YES you ARE!!! You are asking for my credentials over actual evidence trying to argue that the authority of credentials PROVE something thus you are appealing to authority...
And you can't read for shit, thanks for the non-surprise. It's not the fact that having credentials prove something, it's the fact of a layman like you with absolutely no known education of the matter trying to dismiss conclusions from someone with such education.

In smaller words, it's not that they're scientists therefore they're right, it's you that is trying to bullshit your way pretending to have the knowledge you clearly don't have. You providing credentials or a scientific paper on the matter would shut me up instead of me calling on your bullshit every step of the way, so why don't you shut me up and actually win an argument for once, KYF?

Quote:
2). LMAO, now it's the CS despite the whole time almost every post I have written it... Over and over explaining to you that seeing edo's over and over consistently within a two day time frame is the conditioned stimulus that is different from the UC stimulus of ONLY seeing an Edo rarely, thus the UC response of utter surprise...
Not only you made a single stimulus both CS and US, you actually ignored the goddamn manga where everyone was gasping at every Edo, no matter how failtastic they were.

Really, KYF, just give up, you know damn well you're wrong and you're just running after the damage.
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Old 09-24-2013, 09:26 PM   #175
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Re: Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength...

Num and Kyf .. I can honestly say you guys love to hate each other.. makes me jealous I wish I had an arch nemesis. Num is batman and Kyf is the Joker.. that's the best way to describe their relationship. and yes you guys do have a relationship.. a weird dysfunctional one but a relationship non the less.
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for those of you who don't understand.. I'm coming from an illogical perspective so your logic won't fit my argument .. it'll only give you a headache.. remember ..belief doesn't require a co-signer There Is A Fine Line Between Genius And Insanity , I Have Erased This Line ! If I were you I'd hate me too.. I am the HUMAN RASENGAN!!!

The power of despair is great in you.



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Old 09-24-2013, 11:50 PM   #176
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Re: Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength...

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Originally Posted by Human Rasengan View Post
Num and Kyf .. I can honestly say you guys love to hate each other.. makes me jealous I wish I had an arch nemesis. Num is batman and Kyf is the Joker.. that's the best way to describe their relationship. and yes you guys do have a relationship.. a weird dysfunctional one but a relationship non the less.
You can be Sabertooth to my Wolverine.
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Old 09-25-2013, 12:50 AM   #177
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Re: Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength...

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Originally Posted by liondemon View Post
You can be Sabertooth to my Wolverine.
your avatar is more in line with Sabertooth.. I'm more like wolverine cause no matter how many beatings I take I still come back for more..lol
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for those of you who don't understand.. I'm coming from an illogical perspective so your logic won't fit my argument .. it'll only give you a headache.. remember ..belief doesn't require a co-signer There Is A Fine Line Between Genius And Insanity , I Have Erased This Line ! If I were you I'd hate me too.. I am the HUMAN RASENGAN!!!

The power of despair is great in you.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zlzx4...&feature=share

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3qkz4WfOto

LOL I'M DYING BACK HERE
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Old 09-25-2013, 12:55 AM   #178
liondemon
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Re: Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Human Rasengan View Post
your avatar is more in line with Sabertooth.. I'm more like wolverine cause no matter how many beatings I take I still come back for more..lol
Cool, I like the beastly nature of Sabertooth more anyway. Fuck your adamantium, you midget, bitch.
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Wisdom, compassion, and courage are the three universally recognized moral qualities of men.
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There is a wisdom of the head and a wisdom of the heart.
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To be satisfied with a little is the greatest wisdom; and he that increaseth his riches, increaseth his cares; but a contented mind is a hidden treasure, and trouble findeth it not.
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It is the nature of the wise to resist pleasures, but the foolish to be a slave to them.
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It requires wisdom to understand wisdom: the music is nothing if the audience is deaf.
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Old 09-25-2013, 11:03 AM   #179
Konnaha_yellow_flash
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Re: Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Numinous View Post
And you can't read for shit, thanks for the non-surprise. It's not the fact that having credentials prove something, it's the fact of a layman like you with absolutely no known education of the matter trying to dismiss conclusions from someone with such education.
And still you are stupid enough to ignore the FACT that having credentials does not make their paper anymore right you idiot, nor would it make ME any more right!!! Again, trying to use authroty as oopsed to evidence to support your position is an appeal to authority, learn the fallacy you and quit deluding yourself... I mean it is right there to read, but clearly you cannot, thus actually thin you are not appealing to authority despite your ovious appeal to authority as described by it;s very definition...

And since they are scientist not using SCIENCE.... ONLY personal INTERPRETATIONS of behavior, thus showing no evidence to support their position proving a shit argument based on OPINION and nothing to support yours as well... Other then an opinion which means nothing to me without supporting evidence...

Quote:
In smaller words, it's not that they're scientists therefore they're right, it's you that is trying to bullshit your way pretending to have the knowledge you clearly don't have. You providing credentials or a scientific paper on the matter would shut me up instead of me calling on your bullshit every step of the way, so why don't you shut me up and actually win an argument for once, KYF?
Hey Forrest gump, I do not need to be a scientist to KNOW that a Claim merely backed by an OPINION without supporting evidence proves nothing other then a shit argument... ONLY an idiot like you thinks an opinion is comparable to evidence and even facts...

And thus you actually try to hide behind an appeal to authority while ignoring the FACT that the papers you LINKED offered nothing other then Claims and opinions which proves nothing...

Quote:
Not only you made a single stimulus both CS and US, you actually ignored the goddamn manga where everyone was gasping at every Edo, no matter how failtastic they were.
I have already prven you wrong on this and yet you still argue otherwise... You really are an idiot...

FIRST:
I was not supplying two different stimulus this the UCS and the CS... Despite proving you wrong...

SECOND:
I was not proving the CS then which I proved every post proving you wrong yet again...

And now I made a single stimulus the UCS and the CS... You are just ridiculous and pathetic!!! I just wonder how you rationalize this one like the first two...

And apparently I am ignoring something that never happened while able to see obvious conditioning of the shinobi to show less urprise with each dead shinobi they see...

Quote:
Really, KYF, just give up, you know damn well you're wrong and you're just running after the damage.
Yea, I am wrong because tweedle dee says so while appealing to authority as opposed to evidence while you keep changing your story about what I am not giving you about conditioning just showing your obvious back peddling...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Human Rasengan View Post
Num and Kyf .. I can honestly say you guys love to hate each other.. makes me jealous I wish I had an arch nemesis. Num is batman and Kyf is the Joker.. that's the best way to describe their relationship. and yes you guys do have a relationship.. a weird dysfunctional one but a relationship non the less.
Lol, Numious could not even be batgirl... The idiot is more like chouzu with his immature cry baby behavior and lack of intelligence to the point he argues authority is more important then evidence...
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KNOWLEDGE TO LIVE BY...

No matter how POWERFUL/STRONG you are. If you cannot CATCH your Enemy, all you POWER/STRENGTH is no more USEFUL then a squirt gun....
And if You cannot possibly TRACK/REACT to your enemies attacks to Defend yourself, then how can you possibly stop him from DEFEATING you at WILL...


MINATO "KYF" NAMIKAZE.

People live relying on they're Knowledge and Perception, and thus are bound to them.....
Those Boundaries are what they tend to accept as "Reality".....
However..... Knowledge and Perception are both ambiguous....
so "Reality" could be nothing more....
then an illusion....


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Old 09-25-2013, 11:48 AM   #180
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Re: Debate: Speed Vs Power/Strength...

I love how Kyf is claiming he impeachment better than people that have studied behavior for years, including going to school for said speciality, but refuses to show evidence that he also has similar, if not superior, knowledge.
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