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Old 12-18-2013, 12:19 AM   #16
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Re: naruto_659

The RG has always been powerful..it was the knowledge that Nagato lacked in using it. Only reason Obito could use it so well was because Madara instilled his will and know how of RG, SG, Uchiha and Hermit techs. Now I agree with KYF his limbo tech did remind me of a different Shinrai Tensei. As we also saw with Obito and his "one" RG eye..he was able to pull and use the bijuu like play things. Obito went on a serious onslaught just using his RG powers. Madara having his "own" eye back which makes sense that with his Hashi cells he wouldn't have too many issues getting adjusted to using quickly. His friendly demeanor towards zetsu was interesting. Naruto and Bee getting tackled by the chains of the outer path...there isn't much from a bijuu/jinks stand point that you can do to protect yourself from that jutsu. Black Zetsu attempting to take back Madar's other RG eye but being stalled by Obito's last bits of strength. Madara def got back his full powers...it was said and hinted that having his edo form crippled his fighting power. Also there are probably said jutsus that can only be performed when you're alive.
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Old 12-18-2013, 01:18 AM   #17
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Re: naruto_659

Um...Nagato knew how to use the Rinnegan. Jiraiya even pointed out that when he was training the orphans that Nagato had mastered the 5 base elements. He knew how to use the Paths of Pain ability when he was rendered crippled. He didn't have the sheer power of the original sage, and he admitted as such.
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Old 12-18-2013, 01:24 AM   #18
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Re: naruto_659

Quote:
Originally Posted by kael03 View Post
Um...Nagato knew how to use the Rinnegan. Jiraiya even pointed out that when he was training the orphans that Nagato had mastered the 5 base elements. He knew how to use the Paths of Pain ability when he was rendered crippled. He didn't have the sheer power of the original sage, and he admitted as such.
I didn't say he didn't know how to use it....i said properly.....

Nagato didn't unlock the RG...they were transplanted....Nagato couldn't use the RG like Obito or Madara due to his bodily limitations...though when he was brought back his power increased due to his body not being the issue... As Zetsu said it here in this chapter...Madara and Sage were the only two who unlocked the RG. Madara being the most powerful user knowing mostly all the jutsus involved with the RG and SG. Madara>Obito>Nagato....only reason Obito didn't use the RG like Nagato did was because they already knew how to work around it....This was stated when he faced Kakashi, Naruto, and Guy...

Anyway what I was saying was the RG was always powerful....
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Old 12-18-2013, 01:42 AM   #19
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Re: naruto_659

http://readms.com/r/naruto/659/2181/1
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Old 12-18-2013, 01:59 AM   #20
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Re: naruto_659

Quote:
Originally Posted by apacolypz View Post
I didn't say he didn't know how to use it....i said properly.....
You said he lacked knowledge in how to use it. That's not the case.

Quote:
Nagato didn't unlock the RG...they were transplanted....Nagato couldn't use the RG like Obito or Madara due to his bodily limitations...
He had full run of its abilities up to the point he was crippled from using the gedo mazo against Hanzo. He had full run of its abilities when he regained his healthy body, but was put into plot induced stupidity to let Naruto join the war.

Quote:
only reason Obito didn't use the RG like Nagato did was because they already knew how to work around it....This was stated when he faced Kakashi, Naruto, and Guy...
Um...try again. Madara stated that Obito couldn't use the Rinnegan on his own because he lacked the Senju lineage. He could use them as a transplant because of the Zetsu graft, but he didn't have full run of its abilities.
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Old 12-18-2013, 02:20 AM   #21
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Re: naruto_659

Quote:
Originally Posted by kael03 View Post
You said he lacked knowledge in how to use it. That's not the case.



He had full run of its abilities up to the point he was crippled from using the gedo mazo against Hanzo. He had full run of its abilities when he regained his healthy body, but was put into plot induced stupidity to let Naruto join the war.



Um...try again. Madara stated that Obito couldn't use the Rinnegan on his own because he lacked the Senju lineage. He could use them as a transplant because of the Zetsu graft, but he didn't have full run of its abilities.
Nagato was not limited to his jutsus just the full knowledge of how to use the RG...He was not aware of the raw potential of the RG as Obito and Madara are....If Nagato was so strong he wouldn't of been put under Obito's heel. And no I don't need to try again...Obito could use the RG best abilities due to him having both Uchiha/SG and Hashi's cells....I don't know what you tried to imply but I never said anything about Obito's limits due to him not having Hashi's cells...I said again he did not use the RG powers like Nagato did because they already had a way around it... I mean I can pull up the panel if I need to.

http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/567/13 try again sir

Obito even went to confirm Kakashi's hypothesis. It would drain his chakra to waste the RG's abilities on foes who know full well how to counter them. He is using the bjiuu but more importantly the shell of the Gedo just with his RG eye...Madara told him all this when he instilled his will which I said in my original statement. Use the RG on his own? Yeah his own by saying relying on his Uchiha powers isn't enough...he needs both halves in order to fully utilize the Gedo and the Bijuu. He has used jutsus of the outer path that even Nagato didn't use. He roped together the bijuu like it was childs play and Nagato could barely fight Naruto/one bijuu.....

Last edited by apacolypz; 12-18-2013 at 02:53 AM.
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Old 12-18-2013, 09:07 AM   #22
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Re: naruto_659

So is everyone in this war going to stand around and let Madara revive the Juubi again (*sigh*)?

At least we know Sasuke means business and he is probably the only one who can stop Madara because it seems like everyone else is drooling in sheer awe of Madara's "real" Rinnegan. What ever that is supposed to mean haha?
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Old 12-18-2013, 01:06 PM   #23
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Re: naruto_659

Quote:
Originally Posted by kael03 View Post
You said he lacked knowledge in how to use it. That's not the case.
not true! If nagato had full knowledge of the RG then he would know it came from the EMS, thus be able to realize he could likely use EMS jutsu to activate and use susanoo like madara can...

not to mention that the RG is a Yin/Yang doujutsu that comes from the combination of the eyes and body of the sage therefore allowing the use of Yin/Yang jutsu like the sage's Izanagi that can create things from nothing or chakra by bringing imagination to life making it real.

Much less the knowledge of the RG being just the highest level of the SG going from SG-MS-MS-RG, which means that Izanagi or Izanami can be used which nagato showed no knowledge of either.


Quote:
He had full run of its abilities up to the point he was crippled from using the gedo mazo against Hanzo. He had full run of its abilities when he regained his healthy body, but was put into plot induced stupidity to let Naruto join the war.
Nagato could use all 7 realms/powers, but we do not know if he knew how to use ALL the varations of each of those powers or the combination of more then one realm power together for a new power...

We need to wait and see what madara can do with the RG...

Quote:
Um...try again. Madara stated that Obito couldn't use the Rinnegan on his own because he lacked the Senju lineage. He could use them as a transplant because of the Zetsu graft, but he didn't have full run of its abilities.
Are you for real? Did you forget about the hashirama SENJU half body obito has to use for half his full power plus his uchiha half to qualify to be able to wield the RG which is awakened by the same powers.

I thought it was far more obvious at this point that Obito merely lacked the power/stamina level to use the RG more properly like nagato could. His senju half body is a clone power of hashirama, thus likely only half as powerful as the original not giving obito the power/stamina he needs to spam all 7 powers like nagato could.

Obito did use preta path on kakashi's kyuubi cloak and could use the ultimate jutsu rinne tensai... but that was it.
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However..... Knowledge and Perception are both ambiguous....
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Old 12-18-2013, 01:22 PM   #24
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Re: naruto_659

I always love how KYF argues we don't read his bullshit, when he does the same when trying to counter my post.
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Old 12-19-2013, 05:03 AM   #25
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Re: naruto_659

FFS the RG is not evolved from the sharingan in anyway. It is fucking evolved from the brown eye, as in, every power is pulled directly out of the user's ass!
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Old 12-19-2013, 02:24 PM   #26
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Re: naruto_659

Quote:
Originally Posted by kael03 View Post
I always love how KYF argues we don't read his bullshit, when he does the same when trying to counter my post.
"We" do not read his Bullshit!!! Is their a hamster up your ass... You are but one person you poor deluded fellow..
Clearly you are just Committing a BEGGING THE QUESTION FALLACY making such an assumption...

Other then that, you clearly are just Committing a TWO WRONGS MAKE A RIGHT by not reading my counter post simply because you believe I did not read yours... Classy!!! Yet such a transparently obvious RED HERRING ARGUMENT...

Question is then, why are you trying to draw attention away from the argument and even change the subject...???

Quote:
Originally Posted by emachina View Post
FFS the RG is not evolved from the sharingan in anyway. It is fucking evolved from the brown eye, as in, every power is pulled directly out of the user's ass!
Browneyegan//Sharingan... Potato//Patatoe.... Both offer the ability to pull powers straight out of the users Keister.
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KNOWLEDGE TO LIVE BY...

No matter how POWERFUL/STRONG you are. If you cannot CATCH your Enemy, all you POWER/STRENGTH is no more USEFUL then a squirt gun....
And if You cannot possibly TRACK/REACT to your enemies attacks to Defend yourself, then how can you possibly stop him from DEFEATING you at WILL...


MINATO "KYF" NAMIKAZE.

People live relying on they're Knowledge and Perception, and thus are bound to them.....
Those Boundaries are what they tend to accept as "Reality".....
However..... Knowledge and Perception are both ambiguous....
so "Reality" could be nothing more....
then an illusion....


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Old 12-19-2013, 04:05 PM   #27
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Re: naruto_659

So kael is committing not one, not two, but three fallacies for saying something factual, that your response in no way was relevant to what he was saying?! KYF, I didn't know the truth was a pit of fallacies, thanks for the insight.

So let's analyze the conversation between apocalypz and kael, shall we? First, apocalypz said this:
Quote:
The RG has always been powerful..it was the knowledge that Nagato lacked in using it.
To which kael pointed out:
Quote:
Um...Nagato knew how to use the Rinnegan.
apocalypz tried to clarify the issue:
Quote:
I didn't say he didn't know how to use it....i said properly.....
And kael rightfully pointed out that apocalypz didn't say that initially (my guess would be apocalypz not using proper wording that would convey what he meant)
Quote:
You said he lacked knowledge in how to use it. That's not the case.
And here's what you replied:

Quote:
not true! If nagato had full knowledge of the RG then he would know it came from the EMS, thus be able to realize he could likely use EMS jutsu to activate and use susanoo like madara can...

not to mention that the RG is a Yin/Yang doujutsu that comes from the combination of the eyes and body of the sage therefore allowing the use of Yin/Yang jutsu like the sage's Izanagi that can create things from nothing or chakra by bringing imagination to life making it real.

Much less the knowledge of the RG being just the highest level of the SG going from SG-MS-MS-RG, which means that Izanagi or Izanami can be used which nagato showed no knowledge of either.
Tell me, oh wise one, how the flying fuck is this of any, ANY relevancy on whether Nagato knew or not how to use the Rinnegan? None, you just started rambling on about something that wasn't even the point of kael's post.

So please respond to the following questions:
  • How is kael begging the question in the last post he made if it lacked circular reasoning, the foundation of the such fallacy?
  • How are you NOT committing a non-sequitur by providing an answer that doesn't match at all the question made?
  • How is kael committing the "two wrongs don't make a right" fallacy if he doesn't even allude to two wrongs, but only one (being it the irony/hypocrisy linked to your post)?
  • How are you NOT committing a naturalistic fallacy by saying that only by fully knowing how the Rinnegan came to be and all of its properties can someone use it properly?
  • How is kael placing a red herring in his last post if all of it contributes to a single argument, that you do exactly what you criticize others of doing?
  • How are you NOT committing an argument from repetition by insisting on that damn bullshit of Izanagi creating anything even after being refuted to hell and back and Izanagi not being relevant at all for almost an hundred chapters?


Please, KYF, don't insult my intelligence by not knowing the least bit of what you're pretending to say and accusing others of a cascade of fallacies when you're the one barfing them out.
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Old 12-19-2013, 04:55 PM   #28
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Re: naruto_659

Won't let me make a prediction thread. Has something changed do we not do those anymore?

A Jericho Prediction:

Naruto 660: “Surprise!”

The Bijuu are all being dragged towards the Summoned ten tails body.

Kurama, “dammit he is dragging us all inside, me and Gyuuki end up in there this time it will be complete and more to handle then last time!

Gyuuki, “Bee the others are knocked out we are only awake because we are linked to you and Naruto. If he extracts us this way you will…”

Naruto, “Uncle Bee follow my lead!”

Bee, I’m here, for you. Monkey see monkey do!”

Naruto puts his hands together and goes back into base mode, Bee follows suit. They both seem to fall through the chain loops.

Madara atop the Gedo Mazo, “trouble some, no matter I shall extract them by my own …”

Schlup!!

A blade comes erupting from his torso from behind.

Sasuke from below, “that’s..”

Orochimaru has impaled Madara from behind with the Sword of Kusanagi.

Madara, “how did you?!”

Tobirama is beside him with his hand on his shoulder, “you always seemed to overlook little brother, Madara!”

Naruto, “way to go Orochimaru and Grand Pa Second Hokage!”

Sasuke, “that won’t stop him, hurry we need to prepare for the worst, Naruto you and Bee get out of here!”

Naruto, “what? No way am I leaving, we have to stop him!”

Gyuuki, “he is right, no human here can stop him, all our brothers and sister are being taken away again. No way we can forge a United front.”

Naruto, “he is not gonna take them and we are not gonna run! I keep my word, I will protect all of my new friends!”

Madara grabs the sword blade and breaks it, then pulls Orochimaru by his tongue and throws him down near Sasuke. Suddenly he grabs Tobirama by the neck.

Madara, “not overlooked just not worth my time…”

As he squeezes it disappears, it was a clone.

Minato looks over to the situation then at Kakashi, “You have become a great shinobi Kakashi. I am sorry I used to leave you students a lot but…”

Kakashi, “go, I can handle it from here.”

Minato smiles and jumps away.

White Zetsu, “seems the injury has hindered his control, The chains have slowed pulling them. Madara is holding his wound as it is healing.

Naruto is standing with Bee and Sasuke, “ we can’t go Bijuu mode or else he can pull Gyuuki and Kurama out of us.”

Sasuke, “I will take the lead then, Uchiha to Uchiha.”
Sasuke goes full Susan’oo.

A black arrow heads towards Madara, he looks at it with RG and it dissipates.

Sasuke, “Madara Uchiha, for dishonoring the Uchiha Clan, I am taking you down!”

Madara, “I suppose I can spare a few moments.”

Minato arrives beside Naruto, “come with me!”

He touches Naruto and they both vanish.

Next: “The Last Talk”
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Old 12-19-2013, 05:03 PM   #29
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Re: naruto_659

Finally, something worth reading that pertains to the characters from this crummy story.
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Old 12-19-2013, 07:36 PM   #30
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Re: naruto_659

Quote:
Originally Posted by Numinous View Post
So kael is committing not one, not two, but three fallacies for saying something factual, that your response in no way was relevant to what he was saying?! KYF, I didn't know the truth was a pit of fallacies, thanks for the insight.

So let's analyze the conversation between apocalypz and kael, shall we? First, apocalypz said this:


To which kael pointed out:


apocalypz tried to clarify the issue:


And kael rightfully pointed out that apocalypz didn't say that initially (my guess would be apocalypz not using proper wording that would convey what he meant)


And here's what you replied:



Tell me, oh wise one, how the flying fuck is this of any, ANY relevancy on whether Nagato knew or not how to use the Rinnegan? None, you just started rambling on about something that wasn't even the point of kael's post.

So please respond to the following questions:
  • How is kael begging the question in the last post he made if it lacked circular reasoning, the foundation of the such fallacy?
  • How are you NOT committing a non-sequitur by providing an answer that doesn't match at all the question made?
  • How is kael committing the "two wrongs don't make a right" fallacy if he doesn't even allude to two wrongs, but only one (being it the irony/hypocrisy linked to your post)?
  • How are you NOT committing a naturalistic fallacy by saying that only by fully knowing how the Rinnegan came to be and all of its properties can someone use it properly?
  • How is kael placing a red herring in his last post if all of it contributes to a single argument, that you do exactly what you criticize others of doing?
  • How are you NOT committing an argument from repetition by insisting on that damn bullshit of Izanagi creating anything even after being refuted to hell and back and Izanagi not being relevant at all for almost an hundred chapters?


Please, KYF, don't insult my intelligence by not knowing the least bit of what you're pretending to say and accusing others of a cascade of fallacies when you're the one barfing them out.
My hat is off to you good sir for a fine argument indeed. Just to throw in an added bonus....


Kael also said:

Quote:
Um...try again. Madara stated that Obito couldn't use the Rinnegan on his own because he lacked the Senju lineage. He could use them as a transplant because of the Zetsu graft, but he didn't have full run of its abilities.
To which KYF regrettably retorted:
Quote:
Are you for real? Did you forget about the hashirama SENJU half body obito has to use for half his full power plus his uchiha half to qualify to be able to wield the RG which is awakened by the same powers.
It is clear as day that the body graft that Madara put on Obito and the Zetsu's themselves are both made from Hashirama's DNA. The manga has bluntly stated it several times now. For poor KYF to read Kael's post, not understand what was actually written, and then post a reworded statement as a counter argument, is beyond laughable.

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