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Old 02-07-2014, 11:36 AM   #76
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Re: Naruto_663

Quote:
Originally Posted by ninjalostboy95 View Post
Where does it say that? Don't group the eyes all together that's a fallacy to begin with. The sharingan and byakugan may not be related to begin with, so treating them as if they came from the same source is stupid. We have no origins on it all we can call it is a KKG.



Are you trying to prove my point for me? That just disproved your tree. Flip it the other way.
So Konoah the originator of all three great dojutsus. Two came from the same source and your belief is the byakugan didn't?

How does that prove your point? The Sharingan and the Rinnegan devolved from the Sharinnegan is a confirmed fact. By no way though does it not mess up my theory. As you said due to the panel I provided the discussion was not about Hyuugas so we don't know their complete origin or relation to the Son's of the Sage. It can be assumed since Kishi did throw in the rumor that the Sharingan evolved from the Byakugan.
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Old 02-07-2014, 12:17 PM   #77
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Re: Naruto_663

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Originally Posted by apacolypz View Post
So Konoah the originator of all three great dojutsus. Two came from the same source and your belief is the byakugan didn't
That's exactly what I am saying. You can't assume all eye techniques came from the same source(I'm talking about the elder son not Konoha.)

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Originally Posted by apacolypz View Post
How does that prove your point? The Sharingan and the Rinnegan devolved from the Sharinnegan is a confirmed fact. By no way though does it not mess up my theory. As you said due to the panel I provided the discussion was not about Hyuugas so we don't know their complete origin or relation to the Son's of the Sage. It can be assumed since Kishi did throw in the rumor that the Sharingan evolved from the Byakugan.
It does mess up your theory. You put Hyuuga then Uchiha whereas manga says otherwise, ofc that's assuming they're even related. Also that rumor is just that, a rumor i.e that's what characters believed to be true. Does that make it true? No. Itachi was believed a cold blooded assassin but he wasn't, Rinnegan was thought to be a legend and it was real, point things chars say aren't always fact.

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Old 02-07-2014, 12:37 PM   #78
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Re: Naruto_663

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Originally Posted by ninjalostboy95 View Post
That's exactly what I am saying. You can't assume all eye techniques came from the same source(I'm talking about the elder son not Konoha.)



It does mess up your theory. You put Hyuuga then Uchiha whereas manga says otherwise, ofc that's assuming they're even related. Also that rumor is just that, a rumor i.e that's what characters believed to be true. Does that make it true? No. Itachi was believed a cold blooded assassin but he wasn't, Rinnegan was thought to be a legend and it was real, point things chars say aren't always fact.
It's not manga facts that the sharingan came before the byakugan.
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/646/8
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/646/9

http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/619/17

What do you mean not same source elder son or konoah?
So until Kishi clears up his rumor from what has not been stated.. I'm going with the rumor. The House of Hyuuga has been ignored since forever.

The Juubi didn't have an eye until it got mad and felt the loss for his chakra.
Like the Uchiha a similar effect was shown in the development of their sharingan.

It could be said the peaceful clan of the Hyuuga didn't develop the sharingan because unlike other clans they weren't in constant combat. Nor did they seek to expand their dojutsu through inner competition and murder. Their off branch did develop that evolution through their curse.
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Old 02-07-2014, 12:49 PM   #79
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Re: Naruto_663

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Originally Posted by apacolypz View Post
It's not manga facts that the sharingan came before the byakugan.
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/646/9

http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/619/17
What does that prove at all? You even posted a link that said Uchiha's are direct descendants of the elder son...

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Originally Posted by apacolypz View Post
The Juubi didn't have an eye until it got mad and felt the loss for his chakra.
Like the Uchiha a similar effect was shown in the development of their sharingan.
Ofc it didn't, the Juubi was a tree.

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Originally Posted by apacolypz View Post
It could be said the peaceful clan of the Hyuuga didn't develop the sharingan because unlike other clans they weren't in constant combat. Nor did they seek to expand their dojutsu through inner competition and murder. Their off branch did develop that evolution through their curse.
Or it could be that they aren't related to begin with.
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Old 02-07-2014, 12:55 PM   #80
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Re: Naruto_663

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Originally Posted by ninjalostboy95 View Post
What does that prove at all? You even posted a link that said Uchiha's are direct descendants of the elder son...
Uchiha's? I am not disputing that fact. I said it is not fact that the sharingan came before byakugan. I showed you a panel that said the eyes came from the elder son.

Ofc it didn't, the Juubi was a tree.
No the Juubi became the ten tails when it got mad.

Or it could be that they aren't related to begin with.
That's your assumption.


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Old 02-07-2014, 04:43 PM   #81
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Re: Naruto_663

According to Madara, there were clans fighting each other BEFORE the eating of the Fruit of the God Tree, therefore some clans outdate chakra use.

There hasn't been mention of the Princess, or her Son's Race/Clan specifically anywhere. Therefore if Senju and whomever came from either Son, they happened after some other clans had been rocking for a while.

The Uzimaki's, Hyuugas, Uchiha's, or Senju's beginnings have never been told. No one knows, theyre are so many holes in this shit it gives me a headache. Its a puzzle that won't match, it can't, its too broken in the first place.

Since all 4 are by design 'chakra' by some means users, shouldn't they have all come from the time the fruit was eaten, thereafter? Prior to the eating of the fruit, they're weren't any chakra users, see... busted, broke, fucked, stupid, retardedly bad.
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Old 02-07-2014, 05:54 PM   #82
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Re: Naruto_663

Quote:
Originally Posted by apacolypz View Post
It's not manga facts that the sharingan came before the byakugan.
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/646/8
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/646/9

http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/619/17

What do you mean not same source elder son or konoah?
So until Kishi clears up his rumor from what has not been stated.. I'm going with the rumor. The House of Hyuuga has been ignored since forever.

The Juubi didn't have an eye until it got mad and felt the loss for his chakra.
Like the Uchiha a similar effect was shown in the development of their sharingan.

It could be said the peaceful clan of the Hyuuga didn't develop the sharingan because unlike other clans they weren't in constant combat. Nor did they seek to expand their dojutsu through inner competition and murder. Their off branch did develop that evolution through their curse.
The rumor makes sense to me. What would cause the Hyugga to develop such a clan curse and ideals of duty where even the younger brother of two identical twins would be at the mercy of his elder brother?
The elder son of the Sage believed that it was his right to rule, as eldest son, but their father chose for the younger brother to rule. I can imagine Hyuuga, after their ancestors branched off from the elder brother, making it so a situation like theirs never arose again, by automatically making the elder brother and his offspring the rightful heirs to their proud clan of ninja with magic white eyeballs that are born to see chakra.
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Old 02-08-2014, 12:36 AM   #83
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Re: Naruto_663

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Originally Posted by apacolypz View Post
Uchiha's? I am not disputing that fact. I said it is not fact that the sharingan came before byakugan. I showed you a panel that said the eyes came from the elder son.
It said the sage's eyes not that all eyes came from him.

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Originally Posted by apacolypz View Post
No the Juubi became the ten tails when it got mad.
... Watch this:

"The Juubi didn't have an eye until it got mad and felt the loss for his chakra."

"Ofc it didn't it was a tree"

That was a response to the first half for example:

"He didn't pass his class til the last marking period"

"Ofc he didn't he wasn't studying."

Quote:
Originally Posted by apacolypz View Post
That's your assumption.
We're both doing the same thing. The "could" in that sentence implies plausibility not certainty, so ofc it's an assumption we've been doing that the whole time. Wake up.


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Originally Posted by apacolypz View Post
my bad at work and on my phone so bear with the quotes
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Old 02-08-2014, 03:43 AM   #84
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Re: Naruto_663

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Originally Posted by ninjalostboy95 View Post
It said the sage's eyes not that all eyes came from him.
You said it was fact that the sharingan came before the byakugan which isn't the case. The stories have not focused on Hyuugas what so ever. Kishi dropped a rumor that he didn't clear up in part two or part three. All the famous dojutsus and the byakugan being around the same time frame and it's hard to believe they didn't come from the same source or related? Well that's your belief as this is mine.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ninjalostboy95 View Post
... Watch this:

"The Juubi didn't have an eye until it got mad and felt the loss for his chakra."

"Ofc it didn't it was a tree"

That was a response to the first half for example:

"He didn't pass his class til the last marking period"

"Ofc he didn't he wasn't studying."
Well duh smart guy, I was saying how the God Tree became the Juubi. It was due to it being mad. I was tying that in to my theory on how the sharingan came to be.

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Originally Posted by ninjalostboy95 View Post
We're both doing the same thing. The "could" in that sentence implies plausibility not certainty, so ofc it's an assumption we've been doing that the whole time. Wake up.
I am awake I just wanted you to acknowledge you are making no ground just as myself and others included. I tagged on to a theory TSO stated and you can't prove it wrong. Kishi never developed the Hyuuga's story line enough to credit anything really at this point.


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Old 02-08-2014, 05:21 AM   #85
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Re: Naruto_663

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Originally Posted by apacolypz View Post
You said it was fact that the sharingan came before the byakugan which isn't the case. The stories have not focused on Hyuugas what so ever. Kishi dropped a rumor that he didn't clear up in part two or part three. All the famous dojutsus and the byakugan being around the same time frame and it's hard to believe they didn't come from the same source or related? Well that's your belief as this is mine.
Because it did if we're assuming it came from the same guy. No matter which way you flip it Hyuuga never came first as your tree said. Alright check this out, sharingan evolves into a rinnegan and what does byakugan do? It stays byakugan they don't have the same process so I have reason to believe they came from somehwere else. The two eyes are similar doesn't mean they came from the same place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by apacolypz View Post
Well duh smart guy, I was saying how the God Tree became the Juubi. It was due to it being mad. I was tying that in to my theory on how the sharingan came to be.
I was making a smart reply. If you can don't get it, byakugan is sharing no characteristics even for that theory. Sharingan awakens when you turn emo, Rinnegan awakens when you get PMS and/or turn emo like Nagato yet Byakugan is trained and manually activated.

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Originally Posted by apacolypz View Post
I am awake I just wanted you to acknowledge you are making no ground just as myself and others included. I tagged on to a theory TSO stated and you can't prove it wrong. Kishi never developed the Hyuuga's story line enough to credit anything really at this point.
That's argument from ignorance. I can't prove it wrong, but here's where you're wrong. Logically I wouldn't assume they were related to begin with. That's like saying there are invisible ninjas I can't see stalking my every step. I can't disprove it but logically the lack of evidence gives me a logical conclusion they don't exist til proven otherwise. Get it? I can't say they're related til proven otherwise. They may all be magical eyes but doesn't mean all magical eyes come from the same place.

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Old 02-08-2014, 06:31 AM   #86
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Re: Naruto_663

^you mean first time awakenings, 'cause after the first time, Sharingan awakenings are controlled as well.
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Old 02-08-2014, 06:46 AM   #87
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Re: Naruto_663

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Originally Posted by ninjalostboy95 View Post
Because it did if we're assuming it came from the same guy. No matter which way you flip it Hyuuga never came first as your tree said. Alright check this out, sharingan evolves into a rinnegan and what does byakugan do? It stays byakugan they don't have the same process so I have reason to believe they came from somehwere else. The two eyes are similar doesn't mean they came from the same place.



I was making a smart reply. If you can don't get it, byakugan is sharing no characteristics even for that theory. Sharingan awakens when you turn emo, Rinnegan awakens when you get PMS and/or turn emo like Nagato yet Byakugan is trained and manually activated.



That's argument from ignorance. I can't prove it wrong, but here's where you're wrong. Logically I wouldn't assume they were related to begin with. That's like saying there are invisible ninjas I can't see stalking my every step. I can't disprove it but logically the lack of evidence gives me a logical conclusion they don't exist til proven otherwise. Get it? I can't say they're related til proven otherwise. They may all be magical eyes but doesn't mean all magical eyes come from the same place.



I am really done on the subject... You have no facts that prove
A. Sharingan came before byakugan
B. Hyuugas don't come from the elder son
C. Never states whom came first Uchiha or byakugan
D.it is just as illogical to assume they didn't come from the same source
E. My theory is simply Hyuuga clan developed a off branch that couldn't use the byakugan. Due to the oppression the soon to be known Uchiha clan started to grow dark. Due to that hate of how they were treated and outcasted developed the chakra nerves in the brain that gave way to a new dojutsu within the Hyuuga subranch . These mutated hyuugas as I said became the Uchiha clan born of hatred and malice. Due to the inner conflict and rise in power of the Uchiha, it was decided the Uchihas no longer had a place within their peaceful compound. Both sg and rg go through extreme measures of pain before their activation. The peaceful clan of the Hyuuga were not surrounded by constant misery. Love and peace were their study and the gentle fist. Their calm natures gave then control over their dojutsu vs the cursed requirements of the latter two.
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Old 02-08-2014, 07:29 AM   #88
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Re: Naruto_663

Quote:
Originally Posted by apacolypz View Post
I am really done on the subject... You have no facts that prove
A. Sharingan came before byakugan
Yet your tree says Hyuuga came before Uchiha.

Quote:
Originally Posted by apacolypz View Post
B. Hyuugas don't come from the elder son
Burden of proof is on you not me. Seriously manga only said Uchiha nothing about Hyuuga.

Quote:
Originally Posted by apacolypz View Post
C. Never states whom came first Uchiha or byakugan
I'll make this as clear as possible. If they were related Byakugan has to come after. If they're unrelated Byakugan could have been at the SO6P time which would make it before.

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Originally Posted by apacolypz View Post
D.it is just as illogical to assume they didn't come from the same source
Let's say me and and some kid across the globe looked alike would you say we're related? The same concept here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by apacolypz View Post
E. My theory is simply Hyuuga clan developed a off branch that couldn't use the byakugan. Due to the oppression the soon to be known Uchiha clan started to grow dark. Due to that hate of how they were treated and outcasted developed the chakra nerves in the brain that gave way to a new dojutsu within the Hyuuga subranch . These mutated hyuugas as I said became the Uchiha clan born of hatred and malice. Due to the inner conflict and rise in power of the Uchiha, it was decided the Uchihas no longer had a place within their peaceful compound. Both sg and rg go through extreme measures of pain before their activation. The peaceful clan of the Hyuuga were not surrounded by constant misery. Love and peace were their study and the gentle fist. Their calm natures gave then control over their dojutsu vs the cursed requirements of the latter two.
Yet they have a form of hierarchy in their own home. Aside from that theory is your keyword here because it's just that. It can't be disproven but it'd be illogical to believe in so. The manga never once said Uchiha and Hyuuga were related. The byakugan could've came from the sage's wife or some person during the war.
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Old 02-08-2014, 12:26 PM   #89
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Re: Naruto_663

All Hyuugas, Uchihas, Senju, and Uzimaki had to come AFTER the Mother fed the Fruit to Her Son. Nobody used chakra prior, this is according to Madara. Mind you HE stated there were other clans prior that used to fight each other. Nobody knows whom they were, the Mother, or the Son. Holes everywhere people, until Madara plops down to explain the history to Sasuke, or Naruto, nobody will ever know, Kishi fucked up honestly, and left a daisy chain labyrinth for his customers to run around in until he figures out his own world.

Part of me doesn't accept that Sharingan came from Byakugan, its nonsensical, they've never had a history against each other, or any 'blaring' incidents which point to the break. Additionally if such a break happened, trust me Madara would've said so thus far, I'm guessing.

I don't accept that Senju, Uzimaki are distinctly related unless the group above them watered down somehow. Its just way to confusing. This manga don't even explain whom wiped who out.

Nobody knows whom wiped out the Uzimaki's, Kimmamaro's Clan, Orochimaru's Clan, and others. At best they 'disappeared' after this war, or that war, but there's not even a lot of information on whom was fighting whom during the 1st, or 2nd Ninja Wars. That's just bad, or sloppy by the author IMHO. Then out of the woodwork when 2/3rds of the story is over out come the Cloud, whom mattered even to the time of Neji's Dad, but not along the way. Thoroughly inconsistent. Parts don't even fit right, just because of races.
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Old 02-08-2014, 03:47 PM   #90
liondemon
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Re: Naruto_663

Quote:
Originally Posted by ninjalostboy95 View Post
I can't say they're related til proven otherwise. They may all be magical eyes but doesn't mean all magical eyes come from the same place.
There was no magic anything until the first sage had his magic Rinnegan and his eldest son was born with magic eyes. I do not see how it is possible for any ninja in this ninja world to be born with genetics that provides them with magic eyes or any other kekkegenkai without them sharing a genetic link to the first sage. Though we couldn't prove that Naruto was the 4th Hokage's son and that Obito, his body at least, was Tobi, all the evidence and hints were there. To say that the Byakugan, the only Dojutsu that is always active to some degree and appears to be passed to all members of their clan, might not be directly connected to the first sage does not make sense to me.

No one can say anything about anything for sure until it's proven; that's a fact, but what would make you believe that magic eyes would come from anywhere else based on what we know about the origins of the two greatest of the only three magic eyes in this shinobi world, the only magic eyes with which any ninjas in this manga appear to be born? Of course, Kishi can make up whatever he wants to explain the origins of the Hyuuga. I'm simply curious as to what makes you believe that he might try to connect the Hyuuga and their dojutsu to anyone or anything other than the 1st Sage and his magic eyeballs that could see chakra, or are you just taking the position you have for the sake of debate? Just curious
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