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Old 02-08-2014, 04:08 PM   #91
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Re: Naruto_663

Well in apacolypz's defense, there is some support for the Byakugan deriving from the elder son's bloodline. If the sharingan originated out of the Byakugan as Kakashi said, that is manga support, not just apacolypz stating an opinion without evidence. We have to take Kakashi's claim as plausible (maybe not entirely as fact), since it is dialogue generated from Kishi. Now if it was proven that Kakashi was inadvertently spreading misinformation by future characters than it would be entirely understandable to dismiss the notion that the Uchiha are connected to the Hyuuga. The manga also never states how far out the sharingan is from the elder son's bloodline, only that the elder son's bloodline at some point spawned the sharingan, which is true.
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Old 02-08-2014, 07:24 PM   #92
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Re: Naruto_663

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Originally Posted by The Special One View Post
Well in apacolypz's defense, there is some support for the Byakugan deriving from the elder son's bloodline. If the sharingan originated out of the Byakugan as Kakashi said, that is manga support, not just apacolypz stating an opinion without evidence. We have to take Kakashi's claim as plausible (maybe not entirely as fact), since it is dialogue generated from Kishi. Now if it was proven that Kakashi was inadvertently spreading misinformation by future characters than it would be entirely understandable to dismiss the notion that the Uchiha are connected to the Hyuuga. The manga also never states how far out the sharingan is from the elder son's bloodline, only that the elder son's bloodline at some point spawned the sharingan, which is true.
It's plausible but characters have been wrong before such as how everyone was sure the RG was a myth. But understand here when they were doing their little story i.e clearing up the legend, they never even mentioned Hyuuga. Keep in mind how when they mentioned Uzumaki they were distant relatives of the Senju yet Hyuuga does not fit anywhere in this picture if they were related to Uchiha Kishi would've said so by now.

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There was no magic anything until the first sage had his magic Rinnegan and his eldest son was born with magic eyes. I do not see how it is possible for any ninja in this ninja world to be born with genetics that provides them with magic eyes or any other kekkegenkai without them sharing a genetic link to the first sage. Though we couldn't prove that Naruto was the 4th Hokage's son and that Obito, his body at least, was Tobi, all the evidence and hints were there. To say that the Byakugan, the only Dojutsu that is always active to some degree and appears to be passed to all members of their clan, might not be directly connected to the first sage does not make sense to me.
So you're saying Byakugan could not exist independent of the sage? I don't how it's not possible, I see it as clear as day that it could have been possible even looking at the eye characteristics itself. Sharingan evolves into RG yet Byakugan stays a plain dull white eye. The Sharingan and Rinnegan needs emotion to activate(See: Sasuke, Itachi Nagato and all other Uchiha) Byakugan requires training. Another one is that you aren't born with the eyes active unlike Byakugan. As I said to TSO, if Hyuuga were related to Uchiha then they would have been mentioned as relatives as Uzumaki and Senju were but they weren't it was just a rumor by Kakashi and we all know rumors aren't always 100% true.

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No one can say anything about anything for sure until it's proven; that's a fact, but what would make you believe that magic eyes would come from anywhere else based on what we know about the origins of the two greatest of the only three magic eyes in this shinobi world, the only magic eyes with which any ninjas in this manga appear to be born? Of course, Kishi can make up whatever he wants to explain the origins of the Hyuuga. I'm simply curious as to what makes you believe that he might try to connect the Hyuuga and their dojutsu to anyone or anything other than the 1st Sage and his magic eyeballs that could see chakra, or are you just taking the position you have for the sake of debate? Just curious
Because I'm not even sure myself where Byakugan ties into this so I can't just Byakugan came from the elder son without conclusive evidence. It's like how we all said Tobi=Obito was implausible and beyond retarded yet we couldn't disprove it then what does Kishi do?
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Old 02-08-2014, 08:01 PM   #93
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Re: Naruto_663

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Originally Posted by ninjalostboy95 View Post
It's plausible but characters have been wrong before such as how everyone was sure the RG was a myth. But understand here when they were doing their little story i.e clearing up the legend, they never even mentioned Hyuuga. Keep in mind how when they mentioned Uzumaki they were distant relatives of the Senju yet Hyuuga does not fit anywhere in this picture if they were related to Uchiha Kishi would've said so by now.



So you're saying Byakugan could not exist independent of the sage? I don't how it's not possible, I see it as clear as day that it could have been possible even looking at the eye characteristics itself. Sharingan evolves into RG yet Byakugan stays a plain dull white eye. The Sharingan and Rinnegan needs emotion to activate(See: Sasuke, Itachi Nagato and all other Uchiha) Byakugan requires training. Another one is that you aren't born with the eyes active unlike Byakugan. As I said to TSO, if Hyuuga were related to Uchiha then they would have been mentioned as relatives as Uzumaki and Senju were but they weren't it was just a rumor by Kakashi and we all know rumors aren't always 100% true.



Because I'm not even sure myself where Byakugan ties into this so I can't just Byakugan came from the elder son without conclusive evidence. It's like how we all said Tobi=Obito was implausible and beyond retarded yet we couldn't disprove it then what does Kishi do?

Sharingan only evolves into rinnegan if both sides of the clans are blended in one body. Also again the story has only focused on Uchihas and senjus. They have not elaborated on the Hyuugas since part one. Also the byakugan just by look if you add more circles looks like a rinnegan just as if you add more tomoes to the sharingan it looks kinda like the sharinnegan. Eyes could of started out white and ended up red-pale purple due to the hate and curse of the Uchiha. The byakugan does not require pain or loss. Also it can't be said the rg requires such emotion since Nagato was the only case of example. Madaras activated near death and outside that there was only the sage.

Also a nice little link
http://www.leafninja.com/hyuuga.php
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Old 02-08-2014, 08:37 PM   #94
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Re: Naruto_663

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Originally Posted by apacolypz View Post
Sharingan only evolves into rinnegan if both sides of the clans are blended in one body. Also again the story has only focused on Uchihas and senjus. They have not elaborated on the Hyuugas since part one. Also the byakugan just by look if you add more circles looks like a rinnegan just as if you add more tomoes to the sharingan it looks kinda like the sharinnegan. Eyes could of started out white and ended up red-pale purple due to the hate and curse of the Uchiha. The byakugan does not require pain or loss. Also it can't be said the rg requires such emotion since Nagato was the only case of example. Madaras activated near death and outside that there was only the sage.
Ofc it looks like a rinnegan if you add more circles, that's what a rinnegan is supposed to look like, a bunch of circles. The fact remains Byakugan does not evolve. Also yes the RG made him unconcscious due to his emotions.

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Also a nice little link
http://www.leafninja.com/hyuuga.php
That's a fan page you might as well use wiki and btw it doesn't prove a single thing it's just going by Kakashi's rumor that we're going by.
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Old 02-08-2014, 09:19 PM   #95
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Wink Re: Naruto_663

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Originally Posted by ninjalostboy95 View Post
Ofc it looks like a rinnegan if you add more circles, that's what a rinnegan is supposed to look like, a bunch of circles. The fact remains Byakugan does not evolve. Also yes the RG made him unconcscious due to his emotions.



That's a fan page you might as well use wiki and btw it doesn't prove a single thing it's just going by Kakashi's rumor that we're going by.
I never said anything about the link being official. I said a nice little link.. You are not the only dude to view this forum. A rumor the author stated is better I than your baseless assumption. The fact that the byakugan doesn't evolve doesn't mean squat. As the only eye that evolves is the sharingan. Again the sharingan only evolves if the body has both blood lines of the sage. Rinnegan doesnt evolve into the sharinnegan or has it been shown the sharingan will. The sharingan is the only one that evolves through darkness. Nagato as I said was the only case and madaras eyes were already awakened anyway. Also it isn't shocking Nagato unlocked his eyes through emotion since madaras eyes were originally sharingans... Which require emotions to ascend the dojutsu.

Also I could be wrong but I thought he passed out from using his powers. To note if you watch the anime which went back over Nagato he used his abilities and passed out cold.

http://www.mangapanda.com/93-450-4/n...apter-445.html
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Old 02-08-2014, 10:59 PM   #96
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Re: Naruto_663

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Originally Posted by apacolypz View Post
I never said anything about the link being official. I said a nice little link.. You are not the only dude to view this forum. A rumor the author stated is better I than your baseless assumption. The fact that the byakugan doesn't evolve doesn't mean squat. As the only eye that evolves is the sharingan. Again the sharingan only evolves if the body has both blood lines of the sage. Rinnegan doesnt evolve into the sharinnegan or has it been shown the sharingan will. The sharingan is the only one that evolves through darkness. Nagato as I said was the only case and madaras eyes were already awakened anyway. Also it isn't shocking Nagato unlocked his eyes through emotion since madaras eyes were originally sharingans... Which require emotions to ascend the dojutsu.
That's like saying I'm assuming God doesn't exist when I never suggeste any of the sort. On the italics, I was pointing out differences that makes me believe thy aren't from the same place and you posting a fan page doesn't contribute to your argument. Unless Kishi flat out states it himself, what is so hard about this?

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Also I could be wrong but I thought he passed out from using his powers. To note if you watch the anime which went back over Nagato he used his abilities and passed out cold.

http://www.mangapanda.com/93-450-4/n...apter-445.html
It made him unconscious because he raged but even though he was unconscious, he was still attacking.
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Old 02-08-2014, 11:11 PM   #97
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Re: Naruto_663

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Originally Posted by ninjalostboy95 View Post
It's plausible but characters have been wrong before such as how everyone was sure the RG was a myth. But understand here when they were doing their little story i.e clearing up the legend, they never even mentioned Hyuuga. Keep in mind how when they mentioned Uzumaki they were distant relatives of the Senju yet Hyuuga does not fit anywhere in this picture if they were related to Uchiha Kishi would've said so by now.



So you're saying Byakugan could not exist independent of the sage? I don't how it's not possible, I see it as clear as day that it could have been possible even looking at the eye characteristics itself. Sharingan evolves into RG yet Byakugan stays a plain dull white eye. The Sharingan and Rinnegan needs emotion to activate(See: Sasuke, Itachi Nagato and all other Uchiha) Byakugan requires training. Another one is that you aren't born with the eyes active unlike Byakugan. As I said to TSO, if Hyuuga were related to Uchiha then they would have been mentioned as relatives as Uzumaki and Senju were but they weren't it was just a rumor by Kakashi and we all know rumors aren't always 100% true.



Because I'm not even sure myself where Byakugan ties into this so I can't just Byakugan came from the elder son without conclusive evidence. It's like how we all said Tobi=Obito was implausible and beyond retarded yet we couldn't disprove it then what does Kishi do?
I am saying that in a world where no one used chakra and weren't born with the ability to see nor use chakra naturally until the first sage taught the ninja world to mold chakra and use jutsus, I do not see how it is plausible for any clan to be born with the genetic, naturally ability to see chakra nor naturally do anything else related to chakra if they are not genetically related to the 1st sage. The fact that you are born with an active Byakugan is even more reason to believe that this is something that connects back to the first sage, as his eldest son was born with a dojutsu. And if Hyuuga were related to Uchiha or anyone else, Kishi will mention it at a time of his choosing just like he did with revealing Minato was Naruto's father and Karin was Uzumaki.

Tobi being Obito was plausible, and one would have to be retarded not to see the plausibility and even go so far as to call those who could see it Obitards. It became a theory because it was plausible to many, but Kishi didn't reveal it until he was ready, although he had plenty of time to do so. Kishi reveals what he wants when he's ready.
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Old 02-09-2014, 12:58 AM   #98
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Re: Naruto_663

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Originally Posted by ninjalostboy95 View Post
It's plausible but characters have been wrong before such as how everyone was sure the RG was a myth. But understand here when they were doing their little story i.e clearing up the legend, they never even mentioned Hyuuga. Keep in mind how when they mentioned Uzumaki they were distant relatives of the Senju yet Hyuuga does not fit anywhere in this picture if they were related to Uchiha Kishi would've said so by now.
Yes, characters have been wrong because they've been proven wrong. So far, Kakashi hasn't been proven wrong in regards to the Uchiha being descendants of the Hyuuga. It's likely that Kishi hasn't bothered to bring up the Hyuuga because neither of their clan members aren't focal points in the story; maybe that will change, who knows.
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Old 02-09-2014, 09:34 AM   #99
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Re: Naruto_663

And the winner is... Minato and the other half of the Kyuubi.
Next question is what about Sasuke? (So far only thing left that wouldn't be too much out of the blue would be Kabuto that escaped the loop and has some kind of plan but it's probably gonna be some so far unknown Rouge Uchiha or whatever)
Now Madara gone RS though not 100% powered since the Juubi still misses the second half of Kurama.
What I really hate about this chap is the NaruSaku fan service, NaruSaku fans must still go crazy in any shipping thread and so at this point.
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Old 02-09-2014, 10:25 AM   #100
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Re: Naruto_663

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Originally Posted by liondemon View Post
I am saying that in a world where no one used chakra and weren't born with the ability to see nor use chakra naturally until the first sage taught the ninja world to mold chakra and use jutsus, I do not see how it is plausible for any clan to be born with the genetic, naturally ability to see chakra nor naturally do anything else related to chakra if they are not genetically related to the 1st sage. The fact that you are born with an active Byakugan is even more reason to believe that this is something that connects back to the first sage, as his eldest son was born with a dojutsu. And if Hyuuga were related to Uchiha or anyone else, Kishi will mention it at a time of his choosing just like he did with revealing Minato was Naruto's father and Karin was Uzumaki.
I don't mean to be a smartass but chakra did exist otherwise the sage couldn't have taught people to use it. At first it was Nishu or some shit that was a substitute for ninjutsu back then. The Byakugan isn't always active and for the last part Kishi will prob never even touch upon this. Neji died Hyuugas lost their relevance right there. It's not impossible that the Uchiha and Byakugan had different bloodlines. They just don't share the characteristics sharingan and Rinnegan have.

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Tobi being Obito was plausible, and one would have to be retarded not to see the plausibility and even go so far as to call those who could see it Obitards. It became a theory because it was plausible to many, but Kishi didn't reveal it until he was ready, although he had plenty of time to do so. Kishi reveals what he wants when he's ready.
I was giving an example of how everyone on forums had the debate and most were dubbed Obitards. As I said before Hyuuga lost it's relevance so he prob won't even touch upon this.

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Yes, characters have been wrong because they've been proven wrong. So far, Kakashi hasn't been proven wrong in regards to the Uchiha being descendants of the Hyuuga. It's likely that Kishi hasn't bothered to bring up the Hyuuga because neither of their clan members aren't focal points in the story; maybe that will change, who knows.
That's what we've been on the past twenty or so posts. Kakashi hasn't been proven wrong but at the same time doesn't mean he's right. Characters can get proven wrong as shown previously that was my point.

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Old 02-09-2014, 05:42 PM   #101
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Re: Naruto_663

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Originally Posted by ninjalostboy95 View Post
I don't mean to be a smartass but chakra did exist otherwise the sage couldn't have taught people to use it. At first it was Nishu or some shit that was a substitute for ninjutsu back then. The Byakugan isn't always active and for the last part Kishi will prob never even touch upon this. Neji died Hyuugas lost their relevance right there. It's not impossible that the Uchiha and Byakugan had different bloodlines. They just don't share the characteristics sharingan and Rinnegan have.



I was giving an example of how everyone on forums had the debate and most were dubbed Obitards. As I said before Hyuuga lost it's relevance so he prob won't even touch upon this.



That's what we've been on the past twenty or so posts. Kakashi hasn't been proven wrong but at the same time doesn't mean he's right. Characters can get proven wrong as shown previously that was my point.
I never said that chakra did not exist. What I said and the point I was making was that no one could naturally use chakra just because their genetics allowed for it until the first sage. In Haku's backstory, it was shown that he was never taught to use any jutsu, but because he had the genetics of his clan, he one day just happened to combine wind and water without even knowing he could do this. Before the first sage and his genetics he received and passed from his mother eating the Juubi fruit, no one had any natural, genetic abilities to do anything with chakra.

Hyuugas haven't lost their relevance until Kish decides they have. You cannot just say that since Neji died, Hyuugas have lost their relevance. Hinata, a Hyuuga, has been crushing over Naruto, an Uzumaki and hero of this story, since the beginning of this manga.

Rinnegan, Sharingan, and Byakugan all share one important characteristic, which is that they can all see chakra, something no one was born to be able to manipulate nor see naturally until the first sage was born and then had his own sons.

Yes, many people on different forums thought it was implausible for Tobi to be Obito, but there were many others who saw it as being plausible. Just because someone or many or even most cannot see something or choose not to see it does not necessarily make it implausible, especially not when many others can see the plausibility in it.

edit- I forgot to respond to you saying the Byakugan isn't always active. It's always active to a point where the Hyuugas all have white eyes unless they have a curse seal placed on them, die, and that seal locks away their always-active Byakugan like it did with Neji's father, whose eyes then went from white to brown, I believe. They send chakra to their eyes to see further away or more intensely at something, but the white eye suggests that their Byakigan dojutsu is always active to a degree, the degree that they appear white.
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Old 02-09-2014, 08:39 PM   #102
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Re: Naruto_663

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Originally Posted by liondemon View Post
I never said that chakra did not exist. What I said and the point I was making was that no one could naturally use chakra just because their genetics allowed for it until the first sage. In Haku's backstory, it was shown that he was never taught to use any jutsu, but because he had the genetics of his clan, he one day just happened to combine wind and water without even knowing he could do this. Before the first sage and his genetics he received and passed from his mother eating the Juubi fruit, no one had any natural, genetic abilities to do anything with chakra.
Where exactly is this proof? And the Haku backstory supports me more than you. Back to your original point, if they didn't have the genetics to use chakra as you said, how could the Sage teach people ninjutsu during his time? It's clearly said he preached his ways and how could he do it? Logically speakig everyone can't be related to the sage during this time period that's complete nonsense.

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Hyuugas haven't lost their relevance until Kish decides they have. You cannot just say that since Neji died, Hyuugas have lost their relevance. Hinata, a Hyuuga, has been crushing over Naruto, an Uzumaki and hero of this story, since the beginning of this manga.
What has Hinata done in this whole war? Answer that and I'll take it back. All we saw Hyuuga does was one jutsu in this whole war them they vanish, reappear for Neji to die and vanish again.

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Rinnegan, Sharingan, and Byakugan all share one important characteristic, which is that they can all see chakra, something no one was born to be able to manipulate nor see naturally until the first sage was born and then had his own sons.
That's only one and that should be a common trait to begin with. How would they be a doujutsul if they couldn't see chakra? Imagine using the eye but you can't see chakra? That's a sharingan being able to use genjutsu through his eye and yet not being able to see chakra to counter it.

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Yes, many people on different forums thought it was implausible for Tobi to be Obito, but there were many others who saw it as being plausible. Just because someone or many or even most cannot see something or choose not to see it does not necessarily make it implausible, especially not when many others can see the plausibility in it.
Isn't that the same situation we're in? You all think it's implausible for this possibility but I see it clear as day.

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edit- I forgot to respond to you saying the Byakugan isn't always active. It's always active to a point where the Hyuugas all have white eyes unless they have a curse seal placed on them, die, and that seal locks away their always-active Byakugan like it did with Neji's father, whose eyes then went from white to brown, I believe. They send chakra to their eyes to see further away or more intensely at something, but the white eye suggests that their Byakigan dojutsu is always active to a degree, the degree that they appear white.
If you're talking about seeing chakra points and all that other stuff, they have to activate it. They can't normally see chakra points.
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Old 02-10-2014, 04:37 AM   #103
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Re: Naruto_663

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Originally Posted by ninjalostboy95 View Post
Where exactly is this proof? And the Haku backstory supports me more than you. Back to your original point, if they didn't have the genetics to use chakra as you said, how could the Sage teach people ninjutsu during his time? It's clearly said he preached his ways and how could he do it? Logically speakig everyone can't be related to the sage during this time period that's complete nonsense.



What has Hinata done in this whole war? Answer that and I'll take it back. All we saw Hyuuga does was one jutsu in this whole war them they vanish, reappear for Neji to die and vanish again.



That's only one and that should be a common trait to begin with. How would they be a doujutsul if they couldn't see chakra? Imagine using the eye but you can't see chakra? That's a sharingan being able to use genjutsu through his eye and yet not being able to see chakra to counter it.



Isn't that the same situation we're in? You all think it's implausible for this possibility but I see it clear as day.



If you're talking about seeing chakra points and all that other stuff, they have to activate it. They can't normally see chakra points.
You are pointlessly nitpicking and making no sense. I made myself clear. No one had the genetic, natural ability to use chakra, which I further explained by using Haku as an example. Haku's backstory doesn't support you even in the slightest. He had the genetic ability to naturally do something that he had no idea he could do. If the first sage had to teach the world to mold and use chakra, it is obvious that no one had the genetic ability to naturally use chakra.

Why does Hinata have to do anything this whole war for Hyuuga to have any relevancy? You mentioned Neji; Neji's character has been connected to Hinata since the beginning of his story. Like I said, Kishi decides, not you nor me.

The fact that all three see chakra is a strong connection, one you were claiming there wasn't. Defining what a dojutsu is doesn't change that.

You see what clear as day, that in a world where no one had any natural nor genetic ability to use chakra and only began using it after someone who was born with this genetic, natural ability taught them how to do so, the Hyuuga and their genetic, natural dojutsu with which they're born could have somehow come from anyone other than the genetics of the first sage? It is possible, since Kishi can make up whatever he wants, but not plausible based on what we have seen and been told in this manga.

Did I even mention anything about seeing chakra points? I said see chakra. Their eyes are white because their Byakugan is active.

Sometimes it's better to at least just let it go or just agree to disagree than to keep arguing something foolishly for whatever reason you're still nitpicking and saying that I'm implying things that I clearly am not. I have been making myself very clear, but you keep responding as if I have not. It makes you look unreasonable.
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Old 02-10-2014, 04:53 AM   #104
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Re: Naruto_663

Me thinks that liondemon doesn't know what "genetic" means. Or else he'd stop parroting it the moment he'd remember about the Keirakukei, which is the biological system of chakra flow within humans in the Narutoverse.
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Old 02-10-2014, 09:27 PM   #105
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Re: Naruto_663

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Originally Posted by liondemon View Post
You are pointlessly nitpicking and making no sense. I made myself clear. No one had the genetic, natural ability to use chakra, which I further explained by using Haku as an example. Haku's backstory doesn't support you even in the slightest. He had the genetic ability to naturally do something that he had no idea he could do. If the first sage had to teach the world to mold and use chakra, it is obvious that no one had the genetic ability to naturally use chakra.
How does that make sense? That's like saying I taught everyone how to make pasta but since I just discovered it they didn't have the genetic ability to do so before when in fact anyone can make pasta. You see how stupid that sounds? Everyone can usechakra, just that they weren't taught how to mold it into ninjutsu. The only person who couldn't mold chakra so far is Rock Lee and that's still unknown why but he can still use chakra.

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Why does Hinata have to do anything this whole war for Hyuuga to have any relevancy? You mentioned Neji; Neji's character has been connected to Hinata since the beginning of his story. Like I said, Kishi decides, not you nor me.
Read what you just said. Now tell me if it makes sense. Hinata is connected to Neji not the other way around Neji's struggle has been the main focus of the Hyuuga. Hinata is more of a tertiary character than Neji.

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The fact that all three see chakra is a strong connection, one you were claiming there wasn't. Defining what a dojutsu is doesn't change that.
I said there are notable differences not that they have nothing in common. Let's take your argument of seeing chakra, notice how the Rinnegan and Sharingan's perception of chakra is virtually the same? Byakugan focuses more unlike the other two another difference to note.

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You see what clear as day, that in a world where no one had any natural nor genetic ability to use chakra and only began using it after someone who was born with this genetic, natural ability taught them how to do so, the Hyuuga and their genetic, natural dojutsu with which they're born could have somehow come from anyone other than the genetics of the first sage? It is possible, since Kishi can make up whatever he wants, but not plausible based on what we have seen and been told in this manga.
Read my reply to the first quote in this post.

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Did I even mention anything about seeing chakra points? I said see chakra. Their eyes are white because their Byakugan is active.
Then you're wrong. They have to activate it to see chakra. It's not always active that's what I'm telling you.

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Sometimes it's better to at least just let it go or just agree to disagree than to keep arguing something foolishly for whatever reason you're still nitpicking and saying that I'm implying things that I clearly am not. I have been making myself very clear, but you keep responding as if I have not. It makes you look unreasonable.
I'm as clear as day here. You're saying using chakra is a genetic ability only the sage possesses am I right? That clearly isn't the case. And since when does Byakugan require chakra molding? It clearly doesn't since it's a doujutsu solely reliant on taijutsu and a bit of ninjutsu that could've been developed after the sage preached. What I don't understand is how you're making all these assumptions that everyone who uses ninjutsu is related to the sage.
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