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Old 02-23-2014, 09:45 PM   #16
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Re: Ellen Page comes out

I think you're overstating the media distraction role in all this. Sports like the NFL have nothing but media distraction. While I agree that coming out should be that and no extra attention paid to it, it isn't that simple for the mere fact that more than enough people don't think being gay is normal. You said yourself "I don't agree with it". Whether or not it is your lifestyle doesn't matter. There's nothing to agree with; it just is and it is normal.

But because there are still ultra conservative and religious groups that smear homosexuality, we have to go through these motions of identifying and giving exposure to gay athletes so normalcy can finally take hold. In the end, it is how Sam handles himself behind the scenes that will make this a non-issue. The media will ask their questions, if he lives it as a "crusade", as you put it, then there's an issue. Don't put the media slant on the player.

And athletics does remain one of the most conservative and harsher environments, regardless of who you say "accepts or supports" gay athletes. Hell, you have that Incognito fellow who clearly demonstrates a reason why someone might not want to open up while in the sport.

As to something Mal said... a politician coming out as an atheist? BAHHAHAHAHHA... talk about an instantaneous loss.
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Old 02-24-2014, 10:32 AM   #17
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Re: Ellen Page comes out

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I think you're overstating the media distraction role in all this. Sports like the NFL have nothing but media distraction. While I agree that coming out should be that and no extra attention paid to it, it isn't that simple for the mere fact that more than enough people don't think being gay is normal. You said yourself "I don't agree with it". Whether or not it is your lifestyle doesn't matter. There's nothing to agree with; it just is and it is normal.
According to numerous people in the Internet community, especially those in favor of homosexuals, the vast majority of them want the... exploitation kept minimal. I'm not going to debate the normalcy of homosexuality, because my stance won't be changed and neither will yours. Also, the fact that there are disagreements clings to the uniqueness that the "YOLO" generation so vehemently shouts and proclaims (but that is a different topic).

Quote:
But because there are still ultra conservative and religious groups that smear homosexuality, we have to go through these motions of identifying and giving exposure to gay athletes so normalcy can finally take hold. In the end, it is how Sam handles himself behind the scenes that will make this a non-issue. The media will ask their questions, if he lives it as a "crusade", as you put it, then there's an issue. Don't put the media slant on the player.
You know, the religion/political card is getting really old. Look at the countries right now that are thriving (economically) and look at the political structures. The hardcore, traditional, iron-fist governments are emerging as the thriving countries now. And I'm not putting the slant parse on Sam. If he does what so many successful athletic pioneers have done before him, this will become a non-issue fast. But if he becomes a "glory-hog" in terms of his sexual orientation, he will not be in the NFL much longer after he is drafted or signed (the guy will at least make a practice squad unless he goes and plays elsewhere).

Quote:
And athletics does remain one of the most conservative and harsher environments, regardless of who you say "accepts or supports" gay athletes. Hell, you have that Incognito fellow who clearly demonstrates a reason why someone might not want to open up while in the sport.
10 years ago, I would have agreed whole-heartedly with you. I've been in locker rooms where country music fans were shunned by the hip-hop crew if you will. But I do tend to believe the players in that they would support said teammate if they kept the team and sport first. I mean there is a reason why you see support from fellow players for Tim Tebow (and Doug Flutie for you Canadians... best under 6'0" QB there probably ever was), meanwhile players such as Terrell Owens and Chad Johnson (or Ocho Cinco... whatever it is now) don't have that support. The latter two made it about themselves and not the team or sport.

I do remember this from my time in locker rooms. Once you were in, you were in. That locker room was a brotherhood. No one messed with you outside of the locker room. And that appears to be the way it was at Mizzou.
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Old 02-24-2014, 10:42 AM   #18
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Re: Ellen Page comes out

If the religious/political slant is getting old, then maybe help change the US that still elects politicians who move to block gay rights. Because it happens. A lot. The Christian Right has a lot of power in the US, sorry if you don't see how they influence the country. And I don't know who you are listing as strong economic iron-fisted countries. China, I suppose. USA still is one of the best around, not sure if you meant them.

I believe change is coming but it isn't going to happen overnight (I lean to more generational changes on these issues). In this respect, we have to go through the motions to get the novelty of openly gay athletes to get it out of the way. But again, the issue is how it is publicized. I'm sure the player will be about the game.

Still, it feels like you've internalized a prejudgement here. If Sam is really good at football, the gay issue isn't a thing. If he falls out, it is because he made the gay issue the center and should have been better at football. Neither is true. His being openly gay is a personal choice and has no reflection on his game. I think we could make the same story about Tebow and his pro-life or whatever the hell those ads were. In truth, he just wasn't that good but everyone chose to blame his beliefs and actions upon them as a distraction and thus a reason why he failed.
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Old 02-24-2014, 03:58 PM   #19
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Re: Ellen Page comes out

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If the religious/political slant is getting old, then maybe help change the US that still elects politicians who move to block gay rights. Because it happens. A lot. The Christian Right has a lot of power in the US, sorry if you don't see how they influence the country.
Oh, I don't deny it. But if you think the Christian Right (as you put it) as so formidable, let's take a look at communistic/Marxist governments in China and Russia, or the extreme right-wing elitists in the Middle East. Frankly, I'm tired of people, hating if you will, on the "Christian Right", but not lauding what is done in other prominent countries. As a matter of fact, most of those people who bash the CR, often times emulate the political fallacies if you will, that the aforementioned countries practice that keeps these social rights in place.

Quote:
Still, it feels like you've internalized a prejudgement here. If Sam is really good at football, the gay issue isn't a thing. If he falls out, it is because he made the gay issue the center and should have been better at football. Neither is true. His being openly gay is a personal choice and has no reflection on his game. I think we could make the same story about Tebow and his pro-life or whatever the hell those ads were. In truth, he just wasn't that good but everyone chose to blame his beliefs and actions upon them as a distraction and thus a reason why he failed.
No internalized prejudgment. If anything, you're jumping to conclusions. Look in my previous posts. I stated he will at least end up on a practice squad (which is still what 90% of all collegiate football players do not do). He's ok, but I personally don't see him as a NFL player. He is undersized for his position (by 2 inches and roughly 30 lbs.). He's not known as a high-motor guy (NFL speak for those unaware). He is however, a guy that finishes plays and seems to have a high football acumen. The only problem with that last part, pass rushers don't need a high football acumen. It's pin the ears back and get after the QB. He may be a special-teamer, I can see him making a team in this area. But if his sexual orientation does become the priority, he's gone. He's gone, because he doesn't have "it", that star power and production to make the head-ache worth it... at least not yet.

And in regards to Tebow, the only downfield passer better than Tim Tebow (passes of 20 yards or longer) was Tom Brady. And every Hall of Fame player he's played with, and all of his coaches have done nothing but applaud him for his professionalism, attitude, and ability to work. I'm not saying he's an all-star. But I am of the mind that if given the time and mentorship behind a Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, or Drew Brees, he could become a successful QB.
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Old 02-24-2014, 05:11 PM   #20
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Re: Ellen Page comes out

So as long as other countries are worse, don't say anything negative about us? C'mon. This isn't an either or game. I can comment and criticize whomever I please and, quite frankly, the United States has far more impact on my country than does other nations. But sure, if you like, I disagree with Russian stance on human rights and China is a mess. India has major issues with gender equality and countries of Africa and the Middle East have a dangerous us or dead style to them.

But you know what? None of them so boldly and brashly proclaim themselves land of the free and home of the brave, holding liberty above all else. If you're going to talk the talk, walk the walk.

By the way: http://thehill.com/business-a-lobbyi...-gays-from-nfl Timely.
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Old 02-25-2014, 01:26 AM   #21
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Re: Ellen Page comes out

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But you know what? None of them so boldly and brashly proclaim themselves land of the free and home of the brave, holding liberty above all else. If you're going to talk the talk, walk the walk.
This. With shit like Kansas and Arizona passing bills about legalizing gay segregation because of "religious expression" I can't help thinking other Americans would be cool with living in the Dark Ages.

Shit, if gays in sports aren't allowed, might as well get rid of softball and men's figure skating.
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Old 02-25-2014, 11:34 AM   #22
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Re: Ellen Page comes out

In discussions with others, we all agree that bill proposed by lobbyist nutjob probably won't get anywhere but still, that it is even proposed is a sign of the types of people who have access and power.
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Old 02-26-2014, 01:20 AM   #23
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Re: Ellen Page comes out

I agree the segregation of homosexuals these bills propose is wrong. However, I do think that there should be some protection for the business owners also. Kansas is a great example. Let's just say, as a hypothetical, one of Fred Phelp's demon spawns decide they're going to harass the local gay photographer and drive them out of business. So, they decide they're going to hire him or her to do the photography at their wedding or "church" event.

Under current law, that person could not refuse service because that would be discrimination based on the religious beliefs of the customer. Added to that, the influx of lawfare the Phelps family could, and probably would inflict on that photographer would be immense. They'd drive them out of business by making them spend money on lawyers to fight a discrimination lawsuit brought against the photographer.

That's just a hypothetical, but at the end of the day, at some point, someone will try this. This issue is bringing out the worst on both sides.
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Old 02-26-2014, 05:18 PM   #24
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Re: Ellen Page comes out

Every store and restaurant I've been in always has a "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" sign. I don't know why there needs to be specific religious clauses in the laws. Also, I didn't know the Bible said "YE SHALL NOT TAKE THE MONEY OF HOMOBUTTSEXUALS." How very forward thinking.
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Old 02-26-2014, 05:44 PM   #25
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Re: Ellen Page comes out

I am completely confused at your example there. Why is getting a job at a church event going to run a photographer out of business? I would say the majority of homosexuals, as the majority of people, are actually religious. The gay photographer would take the job and the money.

What's the issue? I mean, if it were an event about beating up gays, maybe they'd refuse... except that would be a criminal thing so...

And LOL bring the worst out on both sides. You honestly know what LGBT people want? The same rights that straight people have. OH MY GOODNESS THE WORST
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Old 02-27-2014, 12:31 AM   #26
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Re: Ellen Page comes out

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I am completely confused at your example there. Why is getting a job at a church event going to run a photographer out of business? I would say the majority of homosexuals, as the majority of people, are actually religious. The gay photographer would take the job and the money.

What's the issue? I mean, if it were an event about beating up gays, maybe they'd refuse... except that would be a criminal thing so...

And LOL bring the worst out on both sides. You honestly know what LGBT people want? The same rights that straight people have. OH MY GOODNESS THE WORST
My point was, if that photographer refused on principles he could be subject to being sued. I'm probably more jaded than you guys, and looking for bogey men where none exist. I've been reading up on lawfare recently. It's amazing how much the court system in this country allows itself to be used as a hammer to silence or punish people.

As for the whole, worst of both sides. I'm not describing LGBT people, fighting for their rights. I'm more describing people like Floyd Corkins, who decided to go on a mass shooting spree at the Family Research Council and planned to drape the dead bodies with Chick-Fil-A sandwiches.

Edit: At least we can all agree it's a good thing the bill got veto'd.
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Old 02-27-2014, 03:18 AM   #27
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Re: Ellen Page comes out

May be off topic, but I find this quite interesting for a reason or two:

If you are a big fan of the smash hit video game for the PS3 last year, The Last of Us, you'd already know that the one of the main characters, Ellie, bears a striking resemblance to Ellen Page. Hell, even Ellen Page came out and criticized Naughty Dog for using her image without permission.

Ok, now for the interesting part. If you don't mind spoilers from the latest DLC for the Last of Us, continue reading below:

Director for the Last of Us confirmed that Ellie was lesbian due to what some fans would consider to be to a controversial kiss between Ellie and best friend, Riley.


Coincidence, I wonder... Anyway, I'm silly, proceed.
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Old 02-27-2014, 05:14 PM   #28
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Re: Ellen Page comes out

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My point was, if that photographer refused on principles he could be subject to being sued.
If this is even a remote possibility then the problem is not with the photographer.
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Old 02-27-2014, 09:38 PM   #29
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Re: Ellen Page comes out

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If this is even a remote possibility then the problem is not with the photographer.
I agree. Sadly the judicial system in the USA is atrocious. Here's just two examples of what I mean by lawfare used to silence, punish, or financially destroy people you disagree with. And no, Popehat is not a religion blog. It's a libertarian lawyers group.
http://www.popehat.com/2013/11/06/ye...lapp-statutes/

If you don't want to read it, basically it took a married couple $30,000 in attorney fees for a judge to tell them their constitutionally protected free speech, was in fact constitutionally protected free speech.

http://www.popehat.com/tag/oatmeal-v-funnyjunk/

This is a LONG saga, but if you haven't heard of Charles Carreon and his attempt to shutdown The Oatmeal, it's worth a read. You also learn of Paul Allen Levy, the biggest, baddest, pro-bono constitutional right protecting badass out here.

And while the above examples aren't exactly what I was describing in my photographer example. To me, it doesn't take much of an imagination to think what I described could happen.
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