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Old 12-05-2005, 02:28 PM   #1
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Debate me on common sense...

Does this story, as follows, not make common sense? This is out of my belief but I want everyone here to see this to at least respect the thought that there is more then just scientists, or evolution, or buhda(sp?), or Shiva, or even my,as I believe, one true God. You might not believe in the Christian God but here's something to think about for whether or not Evolution is correct:

An atheist professor was talking to his class about
the problem science has with God, The
Almighty.

He asks one of his new Christian students
to stand and.....
Professor: You are a Christian, aren't
you, son?
Student : Yes, sir.
Prof: So you believe in God?
Student : Absolutely, sir.
Prof: Is God good?
Student : Sure.
Prof: Is God all-powerful?
Student : Yes.
Prof: My brother died of cancer even though he prayed to
God to heal him. Most of us would attempt to help others
who are ill. But God didn't. How is this God good then? Hmm?

(Student is silent.)
Prof: You can't answer, can you? Let's ask. Is God good?
Student :Yes.
Prof: Is Satan good?
Student : No.
Prof: Where does Satan come from?
Student : From...God...
Prof: That's right. Tell me son, is there evil in this world?
Student : Yes.
Prof: Evil is everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything. Correct?
Student : Yes.
Prof: So who created evil?
(Student does not answer.)
Prof: Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things exist in the world, don't they?
Student :Yes, sir.
Prof: So, who created them?
(Student has no answer.)
Prof: Science says you have 5 senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Tell me, son...Have you
ever seen God?
Student: No, sir.

Prof: Tell us if you have ever heard your God?
Student : No , sir.
Prof: Have you ever felt your God, tasted your God, smelt
your God?
Have you ever had any sensory perception of God for that
matter?
Student : No, sir. I'm afraid I haven't.
Prof: Yet you still believe in Him?
Student : Yes.
Prof: According to empirical, testable, demonstrable, protocol, science says your GOD doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?
Student : Nothing. I only have my faith.
Prof: Yes. Faith. And that is the problem science has.
Student : Professor, is there such a thing as heat?
Prof: Yes.
Student : And is there such a thing as cold?
Prof: Yes.
Student : No sir. There isn't.
(The lecture theatre becomes very quiet with this turn of
events.)
Student : Sir, you can have lots of heat, even more heat,
superheat, mega heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat. But we don't have anything called cold. ! We can hit 458 degrees below zero which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold. Cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of heat.

(There is pin-drop silence in the lecture theatre.)
Student : What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as darkness?

Prof: Yes. What is night if there isn't darkness?
Student : You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light.... But if you have no light constantly, you
have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? In reality, darkness isn't. If it were you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?
Prof: So what is the point you are making, young man?
Student : Sir, my point is your philosophical premise is flawed.
Prof: Flawed? Can you explain how?
Student : Sir, you are working on the premise of duality. You argue there is life and then there is death, a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life i! s to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the
opposite of life: just the absence of it. Now tell me, Professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?
Prof: If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process,yes, of course, I do.
Student : Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?
(The Professor shakes his head with a smile, beginning to
realize where the argument is going.)
Student : Since no one has ever observed the process of
evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor,are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a preacher?
(The class is in uproar.)
Student : Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the
Professor's brain?
(The class breaks out into laughter.)
Student : Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor's brain, felt it, touched or smelt it?.....No one appears to h! ave done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stab le, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, sir. With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures, sir?
(The room is silent. The professor stares
at the student, his face unfathomable.)
Prof: I guess you'll have to take them on faith, son.
Student : That is it sir.. The link between man & god is FAITH. That is all that keeps things moving & alive.

I normally don't debate but I saw this and it MADE complete sense to me. At first reading it I started to question God myself with the first part. But then reading what the student had to say, I reassured myself of my faith.

Let the Debate begin!
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Old 12-05-2005, 02:35 PM   #2
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Old 12-05-2005, 02:44 PM   #3
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i loved it but im an athiest so
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Old 12-05-2005, 06:01 PM   #4
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Oh man! God must exist because a biased author wrote this piece! This proves that all people who are atheists or believe in evolution MUST follow this same rational thinking process as the professor in this story and we can all defeat them this way with our own theory of faith!

First off, science has NEVER said that God exists. It says that God cannot be proven nor disproven, for it cannot be tested to be proven wrong or right. Evolution can. (Also, evolution IS observable.)

Now does God exist? ...Maybe. From an atheist viewpoint, the Judeo-Christian God cannot exist, for one CANNOT be both omnipotent and still give people free will. The very idea of omnipotence is flawed in many ways... Even for a being that could exist beyond time and space.

Do cold and darkness exist? Yeah. They are actual words that help to define the lack of heat and light. Just look them up in any dictionary. What is heat and light? Technically, they are the lack of cold and darkness. They go hand in hand.

So please tell me, what is there to debate about?
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Old 12-05-2005, 06:30 PM   #5
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OMG....this is the most amazing peice of information I have ever read, I myself believe in Darwin's Theory of Evolution, however this peice made me question that.......I'm gonna copy and save this, if it isn't too much trouble.....
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Old 12-05-2005, 06:50 PM   #6
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You all are going to hell XP. I have no reason to question my GOD.
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Old 12-05-2005, 06:52 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkAztek
First off, science has NEVER said that God exists. It says that God cannot be proven nor disproven, for it cannot be tested to be proven wrong or right. Evolution can. (Also, evolution IS observable.)
True, that theory of evolution can be tested, but how? Looking at old rocks and using a variety of flawed Radiometric Dating methods? Sure, adaptation can be observed, mutations have been seen by many people and documented; but true Darwinian Theory cannot be observed because no one could possibly live that long (not to mention travel back in time).

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkAztek
Now does God exist? ...Maybe. From an atheist viewpoint, the Judeo-Christian God cannot exist, for one CANNOT be both omnipotent and still give people free will. The very idea of omnipotence is flawed in many ways... Even for a being that could exist beyond time and space.
Omnipotence: Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful.
Now that we've got a definition, mind explain these "flaws" you mentioned? I'm curious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkAztek
Do cold and darkness exist? Yeah. They are actual words that help to define the lack of heat and light. Just look them up in any dictionary. What is heat and light? Technically, they are the lack of cold and darkness. They go hand in hand.
Same could be said for good and evil from a Chrisitan perspective, it all depends on how you look at it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkAztek
So please tell me, what is there to debate about?
Well, I'd obviously like to have a better understanding of where you're coming from, so I'll debate you and hopefully learn something.
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Old 12-05-2005, 07:07 PM   #8
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Alright, I have to say that the student is very smart to be good on such a comeback, but his arguments are flawed.

There is no person that can say that they know every single information about something, but that is why we have experts. These experts, although might be biased (which is why we have competition), know their specific field of study more than a commoner. Through this, we can establish a few certain things:

And it seems to me that this proffesor is not a scientifical one. Because he could easily crush the philosophy of the student. Indeed, the proffesor seems to fall short, either to support creative thinking or because he has no clue on what he is talking about.

The way science works is this: take an experiment, repeat it multiple time untill a usual observation is made. Figure out how this occurs and repeat the experiment to prove that this is so. This is used to take things for granted; for example, since every human seems to have an organ that pumps blood, we can assume that every human does have it. It is not really necessary to test all 6 million people.

Evolution: It has indeed been observed (a species deviating so far that it cannot reproduce with the original, it has happened over 50 years). Now it is not the question of is this true, but how true can we make it?

And no, cold and darkness is just a relative term. They are descriptory, used for literature and such to bring it to life. Most people don't think in numerical terms.
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Old 12-05-2005, 09:18 PM   #9
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I might have come off wrong to some of you. I'm not coming from a completely biased look here. I'm just pointing this out that there are some flaws in each belief. For some to think that Evolution is the only way and is nearly unfalable, is ludicrous. And people going around screaming "God's right, follow now!" is ludicrous too. I am an open-eared person. I will listen, I will learn. You'd have to force me to dis-believe my God, but I WILL listen to all views and thoughts. And the Radiometric Dating system IS, flawed. It's really annoying how they follow so closely. They're too many variables, in my opinion, when using the Radiometric Dating system.
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Old 12-06-2005, 12:13 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MalevolentSasuke
[COLOR="DarkGreen"]True, that theory of evolution can be tested, but how? Looking at old rocks and using a variety of flawed Radiometric Dating methods? Sure, adaptation can be observed, mutations have been seen by many people and documented; but true Darwinian Theory cannot be observed because no one could possibly live that long (not to mention travel back in time).
The theory of evolution can be tested in all of its forms. Do you know what the scientific method is?

Let us take abiogenesis for example... We have simulated in labs the formation of amino acids from non organic material. They then form together in a non random pattern (the way in which their very structure demands that they form in order to survive). From there, they have been witnessed to accumulate into simple proteins. Give or take a few BILLION years of accumulative changes and there's life. That's just one area of the theory of evolution.

Now let us test the theory that a divine being made us... Oh wait. Hmm... We can't. There is no way to observe God and there is a reason why religion is called FAITH.

Quote:
Omnipotence: Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful.
Now that we've got a definition, mind explain these "flaws" you mentioned? I'm curious.
Certainly. The existance of free will and omnipotence (both things that the Judeo-Christian faith teach that we have) are mutually exclusive. If he knows our decisions ahead of time then they are predetermined and we don't have "free will."

Quote:
Same could be said for good and evil from a Chrisitan perspective, it all depends on how you look at it.
See my posts in another thread on good and evil. They did not exist in the universe until man defined them. Heat and cold, light and darkness did.

Quote:
Well, I'd obviously like to have a better understanding of where you're coming from, so I'll debate you and hopefully learn something.
I was asking what the thread is supposed to be a debate about. Evolution? God? Don't we already have threads for those?

Quote:
OMG....this is the most amazing peice of information I have ever read, I myself believe in Darwin's Theory of Evolution, however this peice made me question that.......I'm gonna copy and save this, if it isn't too much trouble.....
The theory of evolution is not mutually exclusive with God. I hate when people do that. I believe in both. In a way, I believe that we were intelligently designed, but we cannot teach that in a SCIENCE class. Why? Because it doesn't follow the scientific method, does not prove any piece of evolution incorrect (it only points out certain holes that are currently in evolution), and it is not a scientific theory by the definitions given to all of those words.
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Old 12-06-2005, 12:14 AM   #11
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So through my premise that story does not make sense/has any impact because:
a)The actual class was not stated. (it could be completely unscietific)
b)I do not think it is based on a real situation.
c)The actual arguments of the student is flawed.
d)And the definition to all these terms, philosophy/literary, not scientific

And I already debated the case for evolution. It has been observed. People might go through all of its premise, but it is just to modify a few key points, not the big picture.

In any case, thats my stance.
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Old 12-06-2005, 08:05 AM   #12
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I'm really don't have time to debate this entire thing, I would just like to point out. If you don't think evolution can be observed, what is a fetus? What is going on while a baby is inside of the mother?
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Old 12-06-2005, 08:22 AM   #13
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that aruko *huggles* geesh this should count as science. i go over stuff like this alot in science. ^_^ hehe i liked it alot. i also like the one where the student or teacher or whoever jumps on the table and so on. some did jump on a table right? well point is i like it and to make me more happy i am glad people can actually say (or type in this matter) that they believe in God (for those who do that is) it just makes me happy.
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Old 12-06-2005, 08:47 AM   #14
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I'm really don't have time to debate this entire thing, I would just like to point out. If you don't think evolution can be observed, what is a fetus? What is going on while a baby is inside of the mother?
Growing. Like you and I do every single day. Don't say that a fetus is evolving, because that's just like saying a fetus isn't a human. Unless of course you think at that stage a fetus isn't considered a human being and is evolving into one...Which sounded rather ludicrous as I typed that, even though some might think it possible.

Yes, Dark, I know there's been other threads about evolution and god and etc. but this is a debate of common sense. Not just of Christ or Darwyn.
I want to see if that debate between a student and teacher sounds like common sense to you.
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Old 12-06-2005, 09:23 AM   #15
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does to me. i understand it. makes sense. i like it. love it. ^_^
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