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Old 12-10-2005, 06:30 PM   #46
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That was very interesting for what the student said. So basically what he said was that there is only one thing, and the rest are shades of that thing; and if we can't see something, then that something doesn't exist. In addition, he began to say that there is not God, but just faith... but then he said that there might be evolution, and that there might be God... but we will never know- all we have to do is keep our faith.

But, what is weird is that can anyone imagine not being alive before they were born? I can still recall seeing darkness... but I can never picture being in heavan or hell... I just feel as though we had a different life everytime we 'die'... as though we're a phinox rising up again. Maybe God has intended for us to keep living different lives... because life is paradise if you keep your faith to God. Or it could be hell if you don't keep your faith. I don't know if that made any sense to anyone, but that's kind of what I think. But contemplating about it all your life isn't going to get you your lover or career... So I guess we'll never know until we pass on into the other world.
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Old 12-10-2005, 09:20 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flareofdragon
But I do not understand your former comment. Are you asking if a tailbone is classified as a vestigal structure? Yes, I am pretty sure it is. Google seems to prove me right, although the first link was confusing. I do not know when though.
Yes, that's sorta what I was asking. More along the lines of was that bone just labeled that because it could fuel the evolutionist arguement, or was the pre-Darwin.

Another question I want to raise was, what was the first animal? Not organism; walking, eating, jumping, animal?
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Old 12-11-2005, 02:41 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aruko samaki
Another question I want to raise was, what was the first animal? Not organism; walking, eating, jumping, animal?
A fish of some sort. The ordrers: fish-amphibians-reptile-mammal. And yes, the tail bone is vestigial.

And lastly, wow, good stuff aruko. The only thing I knew about evolution when I was 13 was that humans had supposedly evolved from monkeys and that was wrong as hell.
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Old 12-11-2005, 03:28 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by nma
A fish of some sort. The ordrers: fish-amphibians-reptile-mammal. And yes, the tail bone is vestigial.

And lastly, wow, good stuff aruko. The only thing I knew about evolution when I was 13 was that humans had supposedly evolved from monkeys and that was wrong as hell.
Thanks for the new info nma! And thanks for the compliment. I make it a goal to know as much as possible. (as I just learned what the first animal was supposed to be)
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Old 12-11-2005, 04:55 PM   #50
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I'm not going to bother trying to get caught up after I was gone for a few days, I'll just reply to DarkAztek. Also, what one person said really stood out and I didn't see anyone reply:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Itachi God of Sharingan
no it just means that the student is smarter then the teacher because you can see the professors brain its called xray or you kill him and cut his head off the cold and darkness are meer representations of a lesser out come and our preceptions on each it is cold but that is a term passed down if i walked around saying wow it sure is a low heat day i would sound like an idiot so i win
I don't even know where to begin...
Ok, well first off, you should know that a regular old Xray won't show soft tissue (brain), so you'd be looking to get an MRI. As for killing him, that would work, but it's just a stupid idea. (Very stupid)
The rest of it? It looks like you're just trying to sound smart via stringing together big words inorder to make it sound like it makes sense. "cold and darkness are meer representations of a lesser out come" What? That makes no sense. Also, heat is engery and light is electromagnetic radiation, cold and darkness are the lack of that energy/radiation. "cold" and "dark" are words, they are used to describe the lack of heat or light (adjectives), they just aren't actual things.
You're also overconfident.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkAztek
The theory of evolution can be tested in all of its forms. Do you know what the scientific method is?

Let us take abiogenesis for example... We have simulated in labs the formation of amino acids from non organic material. They then form together in a non random pattern (the way in which their very structure demands that they form in order to survive). From there, they have been witnessed to accumulate into simple proteins. Give or take a few BILLION years of accumulative changes and there's life. That's just one area of the theory of evolution.

Now let us test the theory that a divine being made us... Oh wait. Hmm... We can't. There is no way to observe God and there is a reason why religion is called FAITH.
True, the basics of the Theory of Evolution can be tested, because "evolution" still occurs today. I'm talking about, as you mentioned, abiogenesis and the evolution of man. And yes, I am familiar with the scientific method.

It's not enough to simply be able to create amino acids in as-close-to-perfect-as-possible lab conditions, it's whether or not those life-building amino acids could be created on a "primordial earth". The Miller-Urey experiment was supposed to have solved this problem, but their experiment was flawed. This isn't according to me, this is according to the current model of a primordial earth. The Miller-Urey experiment used a combination and concentration of gases different from what is now beleived to have been true. So now the theory is that the amino acids came on a comet/asteroid/meteorite.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkAztek
Certainly. The existance of free will and omnipotence (both things that the Judeo-Christian faith teach that we have) are mutually exclusive. If he knows our decisions ahead of time then they are predetermined and we don't have "free will."
I still don't see how something is "predetermined" just because God knows it's going to happen, He just knows what choice we'll make.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkAztek
See my posts in another thread on good and evil. They did not exist in the universe until man defined them. Heat and cold, light and darkness did.
That's one theory, I believe that good and evil have existed since God created man (or before, depending on when Satan decided he wanted God's power). We don't define "universal" good and evil, God does. We make our own laws based on what we believe to be right.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkAztek
I was asking what the thread is supposed to be a debate about. Evolution? God? Don't we already have threads for those?
Well, Aruko says it's supposed to be about "common sense", but I don't see how that works.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkAztek
The theory of evolution is not mutually exclusive with God. I hate when people do that. I believe in both. In a way, I believe that we were intelligently designed, but we cannot teach that in a SCIENCE class. Why? Because it doesn't follow the scientific method, does not prove any piece of evolution incorrect (it only points out certain holes that are currently in evolution), and it is not a scientific theory by the definitions given to all of those words.
As I've said before, I also believe in both God and evolution in the form of adaptation, just in a different way than you.
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Old 12-11-2005, 05:09 PM   #51
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I am pretty sure the first animal was a sponge, it seems to be the simplest. Then it goes to the jellyfish one (I am not sure what that one is called) and I believe fish, then amphibian, then reptile, then mammal.

I have not done research on this subject so I cannot give you accurate information.
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Old 12-11-2005, 09:43 PM   #52
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I can be proven wrong. And I will accept it. If someone here'd provide more evidence then I already know. I'm currently studying this subject in school AND through this conversation I've been doing private research. SO far no one really feels like disproving me. They just feel like putting my beliefs' down. (and at least I'm not cursing at anyone.)
Jesus, you HAVE been. I provided you with three freaking links that refuted you. I don't care if you have a pissant class on the subject in your high school. I took 4 different college level courses, wrote 3 thesis papers, and have submitted my work as a book on the goddamn subject of evolution versus intelligent design. And I've yet to see a rule on this forum that says I cannot curse.

Quote:
I shouldn't need to use Google when asking someone who is all-knowing about this subject. Ahem...-_- If you're not going to debate me, don't stay here and talk. But if you're going to debate PROVIDE ME EVIDENCE. That's the only way you can disprove my own theories and or beliefs.
I've provided you with multiple links before. All I need to do is write in "AAA: mutations" and I will get a zillion resources that prove you wrong. However, for such an asinine topic as this one, I don't feel that I should waste my time having to do so. But here.

If you really still think you're right, then go to that alone. Jesus on a stick! Mutations occur in nature all of the time. There are classic examples like the peppered moths who changed colors in a mutation adaptation to camo with their enviornment that got tampered with due to human pollution. There are pictures of deer with spots that make them look like dalmations. I myself am a mutation of a kind, for I don't even have wisdom teeth, an unnatural occurance. Read a fucking book and you'll find all of this. If you are really taking a course on the subject, than you would see how GODDAMN wrong you are.

Quote:
True. But how do we ABSOLUTELY know that the Amino acids did this back then? It's considered prehistory. We have no written record. What you said in this quote above this typing is 99% correct, cause I jsut don't give anything a 100%. Also Amino Acids have had a long time of practice and survival since then, if we're going by an evolutionist calendar. We have no idea what it could've done back then or even if it was in existance. And please don't say we have fossil record they were. The radiometric dating system is flawed, and that's the main way that scientists date things. Although I personally can't provide you evidence it is flawed, in my opinion and through MY research, it's flawed.
I thought you said you took a course on this subject. Yeah, that would pretty much HAVE to happen. The most basic foundations of life are amino acids. They are what make up proteins, which make up cells, which make up all living things. Amino acids must have formed for there to be life on this planet. But at least we can test it. Tell me how we can test that a divine being created us. Please.

Tell me, no I'll use your words, PROVE to me that radiometric dating is flawed. The one example that some people have is a living clam being carbon dated to be several thousand years old. That is used by creationists ALL THE TIME and is nothing more than bullshit proven wrong. The shell itself is made from the enviornment and is built up from the rocks. It has limestone on it that can be tested to be very old. The clam itself was not.

Quote:
Thank you! You're already semi-agreeing with ONE thing I said. Can you give me which degree it is though?
No, you're twisting my words for your own purposes. You claim that by living in Jordan for my whole life, despite being born white, I will be black near the end of my life. First off, no. I'll get TAN. I won't become black. Secondly, if it were true, why do black people have BLACK children? Why if a black person is in a place with little sun do they NOT change to a lighter color? And why, if I turned almost black from the sun and living in Jordan, would my children be born white?

It is for the same reason that if I were to break off my thumb, my kids would not be born thumbless. Even if they did the same and their grand kids did the same, they wouldn't be BORN thumbless. You're going by complete Lamarkian inheritance, which has been proven a number of times to be complete hogwash.

Quote:
Please, don't put down my knowledge. I find it highly disrespectful and highly inappropriate to put another person down over their research and/or beliefs
But you have PROVEN TO ME that you do not know what you are doing. You freaking belive in Lamarkian inheritance!

Quote:
It is debateable, yes. But the timeline in the Bible seems to be a bit more accurate, seeing everything in there is technically a written record, so that's what I base my theories of the Earth's age off of.
No, it freaking doesn't. Again, you prove to me how little you know of evolution of both the Earth and of mankind. You have NO business debating in here. The Bible says that the Earth is, at most, 10,000 years old. Bullshit! We've found rocks almost 3.9 BILLION years old. We've found SKELETONS OF ANIMALS that are billions of years old. Please tell me what you base your theories on so I can show you just how wrong you are.


Btw: The tailbone still serves a purpose in humans. It is not made to help support the weight of a person while they sit and lay down. It is also used for protection of that area.

Hey Malevolent Sasuske! Prove to me, using the scientific practices, that God exists! Prove to me that we can even test to see if God exists in any form. What's that? You can't? It's called Faith for a reason? We're debating science? Oh noesch!
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Old 12-12-2005, 12:00 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkAztek
Hey Malevolent Sasuske! Prove to me, using the scientific practices, that God exists! Prove to me that we can even test to see if God exists in any form. What's that? You can't? It's called Faith for a reason? We're debating science? Oh noesch!
Ok, now I'm going to go more into who God is than I have before. First off, you need to understand that God is more than just "the big man upstairs", He plays a major roll in our lives whether we notice Him or not. It is not possible for someone to prove to someone esle that God exists, He is a personal God, so we have to experience Him for ourselves. You can't see God's work and realize it for what it is unless you know God. I'm not talking about mere coincidents, when you get to know God you will learn to hear Him speak to you. This may sound way-out there, but that is what I believe.
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Old 12-12-2005, 12:56 AM   #54
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Oh that's great. One problem: We're talking about SCIENCE here. God doesn't fit into the picture. That was the point I was making in my previous post.
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Old 12-12-2005, 01:06 AM   #55
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Well this topic didn't start off with Science, it started with "common sense", we're all over the place here now, there's no certain topic.
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Old 12-12-2005, 08:03 AM   #56
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Are you kidding? The entire first post is a "common sense" debate over intelligent design versus evolution. The conversation "lolz prove-ed that intellagunt de-zine ees curract!"
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Old 12-14-2005, 01:36 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkAztek
Are you kidding? The entire first post is a "common sense" debate over intelligent design versus evolution. The conversation "lolz prove-ed that intellagunt de-zine ees curract!"
It's funny how you, the person who hates people that talk like that, is the only one here to talk that way...-_-

Look at me as a psychopath. Look at me as a retard. Look at me as some monkey who lost his brain through the evolution path. I don't give a shit what you look at me as. But all I know that is when we die, if I'm right I know where I'm going. But if you're right, then have fun being some fossil everyone will look at in 3 billion years.

And I knew this was a bad idea to debate. All it does is instigates people to call me names and shit for no reason other then they have an opinion that I'm wrong.
You win, I'll leave.

EDIT: And Mal, as a note to you:
He prolly hasn't had any family members, as in my case 5, have a 100% chance of dying and yet not die. And not out of scientific methods.
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Old 12-14-2005, 02:04 PM   #58
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Know what else is funny? The way you avoid my responses because you cannot find the means to prove them in any way wrong.

Quote:
Look at me as a psychopath. Look at me as a retard. Look at me as some monkey who lost his brain through the evolution path. I don't give a shit what you look at me as. But all I know that is when we die, if I'm right I know where I'm going. But if you're right, then have fun being some fossil everyone will look at in 3 billion years.
Ah ha ha ha ha! You think that because I believe that only evolution should be taught in schools that I'd go to hell? You really think that I am some kind of atheist just for thinking the theory of Intelligent Design is completely retarded? Wow. I should have no problem looking at you the way you think I should.

I believe in God. I go to Sabbath, I even eat freaking kosher. Believing in God and believing in evolution is not mutually exclusive. I've said it before and it appears, for your sake, I have to say it again. A person can believe in God and be as holy as they want, but that doesn't matter two shits in the United States school systems. Why is that? Because if you teach children in a SCIENCE CLASS that one good explaination for things that we do not know work is to just believe that God did it is both asinine and sets back the further advancement of science for that generation.

Creationists (Yeah, ID people are creationists and nothing more) are not trying to disprove evolution. Their attacks against evolution are somehow supposed to prove creationism. Beginning philosohpy students should immediate recognize this exercise in anti-logic. Allow me to quote Tim M. Berra from his book "Evolution and the Myth of Creationism."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim M. Berra
History offers us a glimpse of this process in action. In 1543 Copernicus argued that the Earth and planests revolve around the Sun. To the Catholic Church, which for centuries had insisted that the Earth was the center of everything, this was a great shock and a blasphemy. Copernicus's disciple, Bruno, was burned alive at the stake in 1600 for this an other heresies, just twenty years before the first settlers - leaving Europe to escape religious persecution and dogma - arrived in Massachusetts. Gallileo (1564-1642) spent the last eight years of his life under house arrest for his support of the Copernican system. But today I know of no religion that teaches that the Earth is the center of the solar system, or that it is flat, although there are still geocentrists and flat earthers who claim that their positions are supported by a literal interpretation of the Bible.

In 1859 Darwin completed the Copernican revolution by removing humans from the center stage. By 1900, most of the scientific world was convinced of the validity of the theory of evolution. It is just a matter of time before this fruitful concept comes to be accepted by the public as wholeheartedly as it has accepted the spherical Earth and the Sun-centered solay system.
Just because science proves pieces of the Bible to be wrong does NOT mean that God cannot exist. I like the theory of Intelligent Design as a philosophy. Unfortunately for you, it is not a science. Science is facts. Religion is faith. I cannot deny facts of life just because my religion conflicts with it, and I should not. Nobody should. Just incorporate it and keep it separate from your religion. Use your religion to teach you morals, not that the stories inside it are some kind of literal happenings. They are made to teach you a lesson in how to behave.


Call names? You're the one who said to call you a psychopath, a retard, and a monkey who lost its brain. I look at my last explaination post and guess what is one of the things I do not find: A direct insult against you. So quit it with the "I am not going to debate because you get angry" excuse to cover up for the real reason "I am not going to debate because I cannot prove this guy wrong."

Changing your mind on a particular topic should not be seen as a bad thing. In fact, you should ENJOY it when someone proves you wrong! Changing your mind is one of the best ways of figuring out if you still HAVE one. Or even that minds are like parachutes, for it doesn't matter what you pack then with so long as they open at the right time.
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Old 12-14-2005, 02:55 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkAztek
Know what else is funny? The way you avoid my responses because you cannot find the means to prove them in any way wrong.
You're partially right. Mostly cause you're obnoxious...-_-



Quote:
Ah ha ha ha ha! You think that because I believe that only evolution should be taught in schools that I'd go to hell? You really think that I am some kind of atheist just for thinking the theory of Intelligent Design is completely retarded? Wow. I should have no problem looking at you the way you think I should.
I didn't know you believed that evolution should only be taught in schools and I think it is good for evolution to be taught in schools. As long as it's a fair playing field. But that's getting into one more even bigger discussion. (I believe you should be able to learn about Bibical events and evolution events all in the same school...But it doesn't happen that way.)

Quote:
I believe in God. I go to Sabbath, I even eat freaking kosher. Believing in God and believing in evolution is not mutually exclusive. I've said it before and it appears, for your sake, I have to say it again. A person can believe in God and be as holy as they want, but that doesn't matter two shits in the United States school systems. Why is that? Because if you teach children in a SCIENCE CLASS that one good explaination for things that we do not know work is to just believe that God did it is both asinine and sets back the further advancement of science for that generation.
I never said you'd go to hell. And I never knew you were in any way religious. I also didn't know that being a "Sunday-Christian", or Jewish or Catholic or Mormon or whatever, makes you go to heaven. Anyways, I'm not going to start on who goes to hell and heaven. I don't know.

Quote:
Just because science proves pieces of the Bible to be wrong does NOT mean that God cannot exist. I like the theory of Intelligent Design as a philosophy. Unfortunately for you, it is not a science. Science is facts. Religion is faith. I cannot deny facts of life just because my religion conflicts with it, and I should not. Nobody should. Just incorporate it and keep it separate from your religion. Use your religion to teach you morals, not that the stories inside it are some kind of literal happenings. They are made to teach you a lesson in how to behave.
And I semi do. But it doesn't help me for the fact that I don't believe all of science is well...FACT. The way my brother puts it is he believes in the Big Bang Theory. God spoke and there was a bang, as the popular idea of the Earth being created out of an explosion or implosion of sorts. I believe that too. But from Monkey-To-Man, I don't.


Quote:
Call names? You're the one who said to call you a psychopath, a retard, and a monkey who lost its brain. I look at my last explaination post and guess what is one of the things I do not find: A direct insult against you. So quit it with the "I am not going to debate because you get angry" excuse to cover up for the real reason "I am not going to debate because I cannot prove this guy wrong."
I never said call names. I'm not that immature. Calling names is shit like "doo-doo-head" from the 1st grade. But you did try and put down my knowledge by directly saying I don't know anything. If you want the quote I'll be glad to find it.

Quote:
Changing your mind on a particular topic should not be seen as a bad thing. In fact, you should ENJOY it when someone proves you wrong! Changing your mind is one of the best ways of figuring out if you still HAVE one. Or even that minds are like parachutes, for it doesn't matter what you pack then with so long as they open at the right time.
True, but it's not an "enjoyable" thing when someone like yourself comes into the process and at some points is nice and reasonable and the next point completely radical. No offense, that's just how you're coming off to me.
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Old 12-14-2005, 05:52 PM   #60
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See, you have the wrong idea about science.

There is no such thing as "believing" in evolution. http://members.aol.com/darrwin/believe.htm

In anycase, you may not agree with it. But you need a good argument to do so.
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