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Old 01-17-2006, 10:41 AM   #151
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so what if i answer every query you have in mind? does it prove your point? i mean what point is there to prove if intentional abortions like in that case cannot be proven? (don't mistake me for saying that it can't really be proven). our laws are constructed following certain principles. and one of them is "what cannot be done directly cannot be also done indirectly". and i never questioned why it's legal in your country. did you forget? I DON'T CARE if it is.
The only way I'll stop asking you questions would be if I changed you onto the pro-choice side. That is the PURPOSE OF A DEBATE.

And actually, you DO question why it is legal in my country when you keep going on and on about how it should be illegal.

Quote:
i'm still waiting for the biblical quote, you know.
And I'm still trying to find a source so that I can look up Jewish laws. Right now, the best I've got is my own torah, which is a pain in the ass to go through, in case you didn't know.

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and about the research thing, i just brought it to you so can see what you'll gonna say. i don't care if you squash it with facts that i don't if it's really true but still it makes sense to me. now if you think you're smarter than the researchers go conduct your own.
I never said I was smarter than the researchers... But the fact remains that any person who has taken statistics or even an introductory level psychology course can see all of the flaws in the study. It is an extremely flawed and biased analysis. I'm sure the researchers are aware of that as well.

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so if your'e saying, dark aztek, that i do not have any valuable information, eat dung.
Uh huh. You DON'T. You're quoting a dictionary and using that as an ethical guide as to whether or not abortions should be allowed. Good job.

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you wouldnt know your'e pregnant unless you are 3 months pregnant. and in that 3 months, a baby is already a fetus. and a fetus is a human. what can you say about that?
...Says who? Even if you are not expecting it, morning sickness and etc. can occur within only a few days after gestation begins.
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Old 01-17-2006, 07:04 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by kakashi1300
did i ever say they will never freak out? ALL of them will. still, not enough to let themselves fall from the stairs. brain over heart. you say it's easy? well i don't. there's risk of getting your neck broken. i said you think of trying it when you're pregnant. huh?
It's called desperation. Look it up.


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Originally Posted by kakashi1300
that's not conscience. that's common sense.
DENIED!
con┬Ěscience n. The awareness of a moral or ethical aspect to one's conduct together with the urge to prefer right over wrong: Let your conscience be your guide.

prefer as in to choose right over wrong, it can just as much be used before a wronged deed is done. So eat it.

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Originally Posted by kakashi1300
i don't have any idea on who the hell they might be. i don't know macbeth. it has no relevance here because it's FICTION.
OMG -.- my point WAS that the tale was based on history. -.- I'm sorry I didn't realize you didn't know Macbeth, my point was you're acting like ppl who get abortions are like Macbeth and Lady Macbeth, which is soo totally wrong. [In the end Macbeth and Lady Macbeth go insane with guilt, but only after they killed many innocent ppl so they could reign over scotland. NOT save their futures and lives.]

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Originally Posted by kakashi1300
is it hypocrisy? if ever i become a citizen in your country (which i would love to) then i have to follow every laws in your country. if ever i'll whine about your laws don't you think i can do something about it? it's just being practical. and personally i think your perception is very odd, considering how you could compare killing a fetus like killing a fly. i'm sorry to tell you this and not meant to offend you or something but i really felt sick when i thought about it.
What are you talking about! you're the one who was all.

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Originally Posted by kakashi1300
i've said this already to darkaztek, never question how we uphold our laws here. as long as it's illegal, then that's it. period. no matter how i explain, you'll never understand.
If you're allowed to say that, why can't we just tell you to buzz off and never question our laws? [btw I live in Canada] that's like us saying. Abortion is legal here. THat's it. No buts. Stop talking. You clearly are still talking. We clearly are still talking, IT'S CALLED A DEBATE. WE'RE ALLOWED TO QUESTION W/E THE HELL WE WANT.

THAT MY FRIEND, is hilarious hypocrisy.

P.S flies are considered pests, look up pests. I kill flies.

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you wouldnt know your'e pregnant unless you are 3 months pregnant. and in that 3 months, a baby is already a fetus. and a fetus is a human. what can you say about that?
I don't get it...wth do you think the menstruation cycle does? I'll give you a hint, think refresh unused and eggs o.O When you're pregnant, you tend to throw up a lot. Which will probably make you go see a doctor if you don't already know you're pregnant, and then they will tell you you're pregnant! And i'm betting if you're throwing up for more than 3 days tops, you'll already have booked an appointment with your doctor, or at least have taken a pregnancy test.
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Old 01-17-2006, 07:34 PM   #153
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abortion? One could argue that it stops crime. Because most people who get abortion, are people whom do not want that child, and unwanted children mostly become criminals. so yeah, theirs my meager point.
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Old 01-18-2006, 02:37 AM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkAztek
The only way I'll stop asking you questions would be if I changed you onto the pro-choice side. That is the PURPOSE OF A DEBATE.

And actually, you DO question why it is legal in my country when you keep going on and on about how it should be illegal.
unluckily it would take you more than that to convert me into a pro-choice one. so go on with your queries.


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And I'm still trying to find a source so that I can look up Jewish laws. Right now, the best I've got is my own torah, which is a pain in the ass to go through, in case you didn't know.
ok then. but be sure it would really be from the bible, and not jewish laws.

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Originally Posted by LightDreamer
It's called desperation. Look it up.
desperation are for fools who use heart over brain. just like those fools who, in desperation, takes away their own life.

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DENIED!
con·science n. The awareness of a moral or ethical aspect to one's conduct together with the urge to prefer right over wrong: Let your conscience be your guide.

prefer as in to choose right over wrong, it can just as much be used before a wronged deed is done. So eat it.
right again, but to a deeper context. we use our conscience to make moral decisions, to judge what is morally wrong and right, according to your definition.

common sense
n.

Sound judgment not based on specialized knowledge; native good judgment.

so yeah, we need this to distinguish what will be stupid or not. and to choose what will be betwen the two, conscience or common sense, that i will use before trying to make myself fall from the stairs, i'll use my common sense. to abort or not to abort, my conscience.


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What are you talking about! you're the one who was all.
i didn't get you here. don't you understand what i said?

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If you're allowed to say that, why can't we just tell you to buzz off and never question our laws? [btw I live in Canada] that's like us saying. Abortion is legal here. THat's it. No buts. Stop talking. You clearly are still talking. We clearly are still talking, IT'S CALLED A DEBATE. WE'RE ALLOWED TO QUESTION W/E THE HELL WE WANT.

THAT MY FRIEND, is hilarious hypocrisy.

P.S flies are considered pests, look up pests. I kill flies.
but i already answered your questions, about how we investigate the matter. hypocrisy? you really make me laugh. and basically you just copied what darkaztek had said. nice touch.

who don't kill flies? right, flies are pests, and fetuses are like flies, so fetuses are like pests?
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Old 01-18-2006, 12:01 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by kakashi1300
desperation are for fools who use heart over brain. just like those fools who, in desperation, takes away their own life.
Buddy, whether you like it or not desperation is a human emotion. It highly highly doubt you've never done an act in desperation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kakashi1300
right again, but to a deeper context. we use our conscience to make moral decisions, to judge what is morally wrong and right, according to your definition.

common sense
n.

Sound judgment not based on specialized knowledge; native good judgment.

so yeah, we need this to distinguish what will be stupid or not. and to choose what will be betwen the two, conscience or common sense, that i will use before trying to make myself fall from the stairs, i'll use my common sense. to abort or not to abort, my conscience.
Like I said it's all perception, just becuase you think aborting a fetus is a 'stupid' choice. I think it's a smart one.


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Originally Posted by kakashi1300
i didn't get you here. don't you understand what i said?
My point was, you said we shouldn't question your laws, yet here you are questioning ours. It's a debate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kakashi1300
but i already answered your questions, about how we investigate the matter. hypocrisy? you really make me laugh. and basically you just copied what darkaztek had said. nice touch.
I've never read your conversations between DA and yourself. So I'm sorry if anything I've said is similar to what he's said. If I had read his points, I wouldn't be so stupid to restate them. or would have at least said 'like DA said' Thanks for thinking so well of me [sarcasm]

BTW,you didn't answer any of my questions. Everytime I asked you a question you said 'I'M NOT AN INVESTIGATOR. BEJEEZES'

Quote:
Originally Posted by kakashi1300
who don't kill flies? right, flies are pests, and fetuses are like flies, so fetuses are like pests?
Did you not read the part where I said. 'Look up pests' here lemme do it for you.

pest-something resembling a pest in destructiveness; especially : a plant or animal detrimental to humans or human concerns An annoying person or thing; a nuisance.

tada. To someone pregnant, and they really don't want to be. It's a nuisance, it's unwanted, it's uneeded. it's a pest. Just because it's human, doesn't make it less of a pest.
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Old 01-18-2006, 09:04 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Matonly1T
I'm pro-choice women should have a right to choose.
Ditto.

Though I think there should be a period of the development where it should be "illegal" to abort due to a developed brain/nervous system/etc. I'm pretty sure there is actually.. anytime after the first tri-mester (first 3 months). Though our Government doesn't think that should be the law across the Country so you have states like New York that allow it all the way up to the 9th month of development. So I guess that's what I was saying.. it should be illegal throughout the Country after the first tri-mester.

I don't care what you pro-life/anti-abortion advocates say.. scientific studies have proven that there are absolutely NO signs of life during the first tri-mester therefore labeling it "unliving."

Do you feel like you're taking a life away everytime you fry up some eggs and pile on the ketchup? I bet you don't, technically it doesn't make you any better than abortion clinics. Actually.. it makes you worse, you're "eating" an unborn creature. Think twice about what you stand for..
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Old 01-18-2006, 10:43 PM   #157
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...Says who? Even if you are not expecting it, morning sickness and etc. can occur within only a few days after gestation begins.
Says science. symptoms of pregnancy occurs during or before the 3rd month (a week or two). like morning sickness, etc. that is because the fetus is already feeding in your body. morning sickness or vomiting is the usual reaction for that.

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I don't get it...wth do you think the menstruation cycle does? I'll give you a hint, think refresh unused and eggs o.O When you're pregnant, you tend to throw up a lot. Which will probably make you go see a doctor if you don't already know you're pregnant, and then they will tell you you're pregnant! And i'm betting if you're throwing up for more than 3 days tops, you'll already have booked an appointment with your doctor, or at least have taken a pregnancy test.
what cant you understand about that? its simple. dark aztek here is saying that the aborted child is not alive or what he said "not a person", so i gave the meaning of embryo and fetus, which are the ones being aborted. it said there that an embryo or a fetus is a living thing and that when theyr'e aborted, they will actually die.
about that menstruation thing, when you menstruates and you haven't been in a sexual intercourse, the egg that has been released from the ovum goes to the uterus, then goes out your body as blood. only a single cell is released durinf menstruation. you will refresh an unused egg, you'll going to withdraw. that's part of women's cleansing.
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Old 01-18-2006, 10:46 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by Rockshmo
Do you feel like you're taking a life away everytime you fry up some eggs and pile on the ketchup? I bet you don't, technically it doesn't make you any better than abortion clinics. Actually.. it makes you worse, you're "eating" an unborn creature. Think twice about what you stand for..
Chicks only happen if a rooster mated with them. A little science there buddy. Otherwise they just lay eggs.

And fetuses aren't pests per say. Well, in the sense of children, yeah. But you do not go killing the children. A fetus is not living (before 3 months). Period. That means if the situation requires a person to abort, fine, as long as they are not in emotianal trauma (that can happen).
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Old 01-18-2006, 11:04 PM   #159
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And fetuses aren't pests per say. Well, in the sense of children, yeah. But you do not go killing the children. A fetus is not living (before 3 months). Period. That means if the situation requires a person to abort, fine, as long as they are not in emotianal trauma (that can happen).
says who? the law? and how exactlt will u know if your'e pregnant or not? of course, during the 3rd month. look at my post above!
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Old 01-18-2006, 11:26 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by azumi149
what cant you understand about that? its simple. dark aztek here is saying that the aborted child is not alive or what he said "not a person", so i gave the meaning of embryo and fetus, which are the ones being aborted. it said there that an embryo or a fetus is a living thing and that when theyr'e aborted, they will actually die.
about that menstruation thing, when you menstruates and you haven't been in a sexual intercourse, the egg that has been released from the ovum goes to the uterus, then goes out your body as blood. only a single cell is released durinf menstruation. you will refresh an unused egg, you'll going to withdraw. that's part of women's cleansing.
Perception of what a human being/person is. ect. ect. Changes your views on Abortion, obviously my percetions of a person is different from yours. I highly highly doubt you've never killed a living thing in your entire life, even by accident. Heck statistics show that humans eat an average of 10? or 11 spiders a year or something. or 7...it was a number.

You still menstrate after you have sex, that's only if you're pregnant that you don't menstrate. I'm not confused about your conversation with DA, I don't know half of it. You said you don't know you're pregnant until 3 months after intercourse, I'm saying you're wrong. Becuase a female menstrates ever 4 weeks approx. So if you don't menstrate for 3 months, you can probably assume you're pregnant. Plus the whole morning sickness thing.
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Old 01-18-2006, 11:51 PM   #161
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i dont support it, it becomes a lifeform once the sperm fertilizes the egg. i wouldnt count it as murder but its very wrong to be irresponsible in the first place and then throw away a potential baby
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Old 01-19-2006, 02:22 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by LightDreamer
Buddy, whether you like it or not desperation is a human emotion. It highly highly doubt you've never done an act in desperation.
yeah, i have done. but they're neither stupid nor insane acts. i think first before i act.


Quote:

Like I said it's all perception, just becuase you think aborting a fetus is a 'stupid' choice. I think it's a smart one.
no, aborting a fetus for me is morally wrong, and trying to abort it in letting yourself fall from the stairs is the stupid one. please, try to distinguish what is morally wrong from the stupid one. conscience is deeper, much deeper in context than common sense. you wouldn't use your conscience while thinking to whether pick a fight with a guy larger than you or not. we use our common sense there.



Quote:
My point was, you said we shouldn't question your laws, yet here you are questioning ours. It's a debate.
you have already made your point, so don't repeat it. i know asking questions in a debate is inevitable, but please try to make it as relevant as possible. you're trying to question me how things are done which is already beyond my knowledge. i'm taking up ACCOUNTANCY, and not LAW nor CRIMINOLOGY. did i ever ask you questions like "how do you know" or "how do we find out..."? did i ever ask you how your law operates? of course i won't do that considering you may not know all of your laws yourself.



Quote:
I've never read your conversations between DA and yourself. So I'm sorry if anything I've said is similar to what he's said. If I had read his points, I wouldn't be so stupid to restate them. or would have at least said 'like DA said' Thanks for thinking so well of me [sarcasm]

BTW,you didn't answer any of my questions. Everytime I asked you a question you said 'I'M NOT AN INVESTIGATOR. BEJEEZES'
at least take time to read ALL of my posts before bombing me with already-said points. how do i know you're not actually reading my conversation with darkaztek, when i made all of my replies to both of you in a single post? it's hard for me to answer two people at once. if you'll just gonna read i already answered your question.

ok here it is for your convenience, mademoiselle:

Quote:
Originally Posted by kakashi1300
now when i really want to answer your query the investigators might look into how the woman who got aborted in that case got pregnant. and of course her past. then the courts can just put all the events and facts constructively to arrive in a conclusion. still has some loopholes? of course, no law is ever perfect.
questions? keep it going. one thing: our laws also provide an exception to the rule on abortion. i.e. when the mother's life is endangered when the fetus will continue to remain on the mother's womb, then that's the only time abortion will be allowed.

Quote:
Did you not read the part where I said. 'Look up pests' here lemme do it for you.

pest-something resembling a pest in destructiveness; especially : a plant or animal detrimental to humans or human concerns An annoying person or thing; a nuisance.

tada. To someone pregnant, and they really don't want to be. It's a nuisance, it's unwanted, it's uneeded. it's a pest. Just because it's human, doesn't make it less of a pest.
well, i just brought your statements into a logical syllogism, if you know what i mean. and true, humans could be pests. but fetuses, no matter how much nuisance they bring, are still innocent. so please spare them from our careless decisions. but if that's what you think, then it's up to you. i can't change your perception when it's as worse as that.
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Old 01-19-2006, 03:53 AM   #163
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You still menstrate after you have sex, that's only if you're pregnant that you don't menstrate. I'm not confused about your conversation with DA, I don't know half of it. You said you don't know you're pregnant until 3 months after intercourse, I'm saying you're wrong. Becuase a female menstrates ever 4 weeks approx. So if you don't menstrate for 3 months, you can probably assume you're pregnant. Plus the whole morning sickness thing.
well, delay of menstrual flow does not necessary mean ur a pregnant. ur still suspecting ur pregnant. that's the difference between predicting pregnancy from confirming pregnancy. you might actually come into conclusion that your'e just having an abnormal menstrual cycle, and you will not directly go to an abortionist just because your menstrual cycle is delay.
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Old 01-19-2006, 09:40 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by flareofdragon
Chicks only happen if a rooster mated with them. A little science there buddy. Otherwise they just lay eggs.
I wasn't going for technical because.. well honestly I don't think many here could handle it. It was more of an example..

@kakashi1300: Don't discuss morals in this thread.. it has absolutely nothing to do with it because no one person's morals are the same. Do you think the KKK feels it's morally wrong to beat and kill African American's because of their color? Well if they did there sure wouldn't be a KKK. And stop quoting everyone for christ's sake.. you don't HAVE to reply to every single sentence in each person's post that disagrees with you..

Also sense when did this become an issue of whether you know you're pregnant or not.. True azumi149 just because the menstrual cycle is in delay doesn't mean the female is pregnant. There could be something else wrong.. like a cyst on an ovary or something else. BUT taking into the consideration if the female is under 18, doesn't want a child, and willingly has sex with a boyfriend, I'm sure if she was late on a period she'd be scared shitless and get it checked out.. Plus females don't just wake up in the middle of the night and puke their intestines out for a week straight out of nowhere..

Anyway back to abortion.. it pretty much comes down to personal opinions.. that's why there are pro-life activists and pro-choice activists. For one a female should have the choice to abort an unwanted pregnancy BEFORE the first tri-mester has ended. The only problem is a lot of girls will know they're pregnant but will be too afraid to come out and tell somebody due to pro-life activists who demean abortion and make it seem like a moral sin. Maybe if this didn't happen then young girls WOULD goto an abortion clinic and get the operation done instead of waiting untill it's too late, thus giving birth to an unwanted child. I'm pretty sure the world doesn't need anymore neglected Ed Gein's running around..
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Old 01-19-2006, 09:46 PM   #165
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this is true. i think they would choose abortion because its the easier option. they're usually still in school and a baby would one use up money and two take up their time. getting rid of it at an early stage would be easier and no one would know about it thus making parents and other stuff less of a problem
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