kakashi1300

and the problem is that i am compassionate about this thing. every time i hear of abortion cases my blood boils. i feel pity for those fetuses who were really been treated unfairly and did not have any chance of living and deciding for themselves.

__________________
Hey Language Gringos Check This Out:
fsi-language-courses.com

Takumi

well, i truly think you should be proud that you can actually care about people who you don't know. Not saying that to mock you, I really think you should be proud of yourself for that. I can't care about such things, main reason for that is coz I have to care for my own family too much, a handicapped brother and a couple of dead familymembers don't give you time for caring for people you don't know.

__________________

Peregrin

Yeah. This debate is really a sort of "agree to disagree" situation. Considering that none of us are liscensed doctors, pregnant women, etc., there's really not much to debate. It just a difference of philosophy and of the concept of right and wrong, and how we weigh one thing against another. For example, Kakashi1300 feels bad for aborted fetuses, whereas I don't. Nothing is ultimately going to change that.

__________________
"The chief has spoken"
-Lord of the Flies

Ninja48

I've read 26 pages of this debate, and I'm getting tired. I'll just say what I'm thinking right now and finish reading later.

What makes an abortion better than giving the baby up for adoption?
The only thing I can see, is that the negative social impacts that would harm the mother would dissapear. (Maybe not the emotional impact that may happen after the abortion procedure. "omG I jus kilt my baby!!1 :cry:", which still may not happen to all mothers.)

Although a younger-than 3 month old fetus is just living organic matter and is not a human person, it still will eventually become a person. Is it morally right to kill a brain dead person if the person would not be loved/cared for? Perhaps. A fetus, however, will more than likely develop a fully capable brain.

Now, should we abort these things just so they don't have a miserable life? As in, child neglect/low income family and such. Again, turning to adoption is the best thing to do.

Adoption is widely available, I assume, but if its not available, is abortion the way to go? If the newborn child is to suffer and die anyways, should it just be aborted? Well, the child still has a chance at succeeding through the hate/poverty in comparison to dieing before birth. (Also has a chance growing up hating the world and becoming a murderer, but blah.)

I myself am not sure of what my stance is on this subject. Yesterday I leaned towards pro-choice. Now I'm leading towards pro-life. Some pro-choice people will hopefully point out some faults in my logic above, because I know damn well I'm missing something.

Peregrin

Nothing makes it better than adoption. In all respect, it's a sort of "last-resort." The only exceptions are diseases that kill newborns quickly (see posts on Tay-Sachs, etc.) At this point, it's really just a matter of personal philosophy. If you think a fetus is a human that needs to have rights, you're probably pro-life. If not, you're probably pro-choice. I consider myself pro-choice, because while I don't support superficial abortions, or abortions in excess, I believe that a woman should have the option available. I also think that it is never my decision to make, as I'm not a woman, and I don't plan on impregnating anyone who doesn't wish to be impregnated.

__________________
"The chief has spoken"
-Lord of the Flies

Ore-sama

I will not let laws someone else made wuthout my asking him to, make my life hell.


I take it you don't understand what pain is. Although I'm lucky to be ugly = untouched, I think I can say with confidence: rape is more than enough for a person to cope with, why add giving birth of that monster's fruit ontop of her pains?

Aha. Now this is funny - so let them 3rd world children starve, they had the chance to live a fruitful life. Let them Jews be gassed, they had the chance to run. And so on. Listen to yourself. I thought my disrespect of humanity was gross, but you take it to a whole new level. I don't mean to offend you personally, but right now I think you're being ugly.
As for the foetus... no thought, no feeling, no understanding of anything is not living but vegetating. A foetus can't possibly value its life. A life not valued by its owner is not a life worth protecting. Be it a vegetative life or a life of seeking death, someone who doesn't savour their life isn't truly alive.

This completely opposes what you said about "let law decide". In French, "terminer" (terminate) is only 2 letters from "determiner" (decide). But "our hands" also includes "law's hands", because those who make laws are, just like us, some random a-holes who think they can decide about others. So they can decide and we cannot..? Only I decide whether or not I want to get pregnant and/or give birth. That foetus is in my body, of my flesh and blood, thus my property. I decide. My life is mine. Mine alone. Not law's. There are forces stronger than myself but as long as I can avoid them, I alone decide what I do with my body. If even my body belonged to someone else, what point in being alive? Doesn't that prove how worthless life is if some law-people can decide about the life of someone else?

__________________
ZOMG! There was an EBUL link here!!!11!
My DevArt
Ore-sama'sWeblog

I value Animals as much as Humans = I value Humans as little as Animals.

Peregrin

Yes, that's a good point. That's my main reason for not wanting to interfere. The fetus is the property of the mother. She should have the right to decide for herself what she wants to do with it. Often times, children raised in poor families that can't care for them well turn out as criminals.

__________________
"The chief has spoken"
-Lord of the Flies

kakashi1300

why would it make your life hell, if you are responsible enough not to live in hell?


i'll say it again, it's not the fetus' fault to get formed when a woman is raped. which is valuable, life or labour pains? labour pains passes out after birth, but life, once it is killed, cannot be brought back.

anyone has a chance to live life according to what they want. do you think all the children starving die out still starving? as for the jews, well, they are just being unfortunate. not all will meet the same fate. i don't have any time to listen to your loathing of humanity. and now, do you think insulting me like calling me ugly prove any of your ideas? try again. geez...

and do you think newborns can also value their life? no feeling (just sentience, w/c is also present in fetuses after 3 weeks), no understanding, is that what you mean? which is why i'm asking now if you also support the execution of newborns.

the first part is completely pointless. why? you are just playing around with etymology without any logical implications. just because terminer is just 2 letters away from determiner doesn't make completely any sense. now, the part about the law, so you always wanted to decide for yourself, huh? you wanted to decide that yeah, i want to kill my neighbor, can you do that? it's your body of course that you will you use. you want to sell drugs, can you decide to do it? no, the law says you cannot do those things, so even if you decide, you can't do it, because we have laws. you cannot do anything you want that harms other's life, especially right to life. do anything on your own. don't mess around with other's rights. we have to draw a boundary line where we can decide things or not. those that harm other's rights are outside, those that doesn't are inside. there.

and now, here we go again on disproving that twisted logic that a fetus is part of the mother. if it is, then what part exactly? and when will it cease to be part of the mother? don't mock these questions because they are crucial. i will prove them later if you will answer. again, according to science, a human begins at conception, because at that point, all the genetic material required for becoming a human are already present. i haven't heard of a same material that in time, turns a non-human into a human. they are humans from the start. fetuses are humans, a completely different individual from the mother. it's just that it is inside asking for nourishment, because it is part of it's development. we also ask support for our parents, for our food, shelter, anything until we are emancipated. does that give the parents rights to kill us off?

__________________
Hey Language Gringos Check This Out:
fsi-language-courses.com

hokge

I don't like the idea but it saves lives. It's called stem cells.

__________________

Ninja48

kakashi1300, are you arguing if abortion should be legal or not? If so, then saying "taking a life is wrong" isn't a good argument, since it is only based on your morality. Laws arn't based on morals (unless you can bring up a source to prove me otherwise). They are only based on things you are not allowed to do because if they are done, it will hurt society in some way. Or, it could be based on preventing physical/emotional harm to an individual.

Example, law: you can't kill anyone. It's not because killing someone is wrong, it's because of the physical pain it causes the victim, and the emotional pain it causes the victim's friends and family.

Therefore, a mother should have the decision whether or not to abort their unwanted baby (or until the fetus reaches x months, and develops feeling). Laws should only be based on asking the question, "does this action cause suffering in some way?" If the fetus cannot feel anything, and therefore cannot suffer, there shouldn't be a law against it.

Although, one could argue the emotional impact on the father, if the father did not want his partner to have an abortion.

__________________

kakashi1300

wow i never thought that i would be back in this forum, but a kid challenged me and so be it. and wow, when was taking life right? according to the law, you can't kill a human being, and that's my point, that a fetus is a human being.

and i hope you can tell me where you get this funny stuff....

1. answering the question, abortion causes indeed suffering in a way, and that is to stop a life which you do not own.

2. following again that line of logic, newborns, having no feelings or self-awareness, just sentience (w/c fetuses also have after 3 weeks), can they be killed too, once the mother feels like it?

sorry i don't have enough time so this is only the reply i can give...so be satisfied with this until later

__________________
Hey Language Gringos Check This Out:
fsi-language-courses.com

flame_alchemist

what's the issue over here??? anyone??

__________________

Ninja48

K, no need for name calling. Just want a little debate here. I see your point, but to counter your point, I can say you can't kill a human since it causes physical and emotional suffering. Killing a fetus doesn't cause any suffering (assuming the fetus hasn't developed emotional or physical feeling yet, and the parents don't want the fetus). And based on my observation that laws are made to prevent suffering, abortion shouldn't be illegal since it causes no suffering.

Well, it was just an observation on my part. I asked that, if you could, just prove me otherwise.

If the fetus has no emotion or physical feeling, it can't suffer. In fact, preventing abortion causes alot of emotional suffering towards the mother.

Newborns can feel pain (or do they? sounds as though you're saying newborns have no physical feeling). Therefore, killing a newborn causes suffering. It's kind of similar to animal abuse, though I don't like to compare a baby to an animal. A fetus can't feel a thing, or even think about feeling anything; it can't suffer, therefore shouldn't be against the law.

K, no prob.

__________________

kakashi1300

sorry if you were offended with me calling you a kid. anyways i don't know what idealism you follow but laws aren't created to prevent suffering of the people...they are created so that no one will be left with injustice, and no one will be atop of the other.

sorry you're the one who claimed that so the burden of proof must be yours

dude, i said newborns are sentient. and fetuses are sentient too (not until 3 weeks), still killing a human is wrong. and newborns don't have emotions too, do they?

__________________
Hey Language Gringos Check This Out:
fsi-language-courses.com

diane_cheeze

abortions are wrong.. fetus or not its still a living thing.. however, sometimes people just do not have a choice but to abort for whatever reasons.. also some people think that abortion is sparing the child future pain and suffering after born (in case parents are poor and cant support the child etc) but i think if u have sex, u should deal with the consequences. But do understand that at times, there is just no other alternative. However, i wonder if the mum or dad of the aborted child feels any remorse.. or is it just another everyday thing to do? if so, i think thats just sad..