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Old 04-18-2006, 12:40 AM   #361
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abortion is wrong cause your killing a human life. if u dont want the child the just give it up for adoption. and maybe you will learn your lesson nextime (dont go having sex at a young age and without protection)
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Old 04-18-2006, 01:41 AM   #362
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Oops, forgot about this thread :P

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Originally Posted by kakashi1300
sorry if you were offended with me calling you a kid. anyways i don't know what idealism you follow but laws aren't created to prevent suffering of the people...they are created so that no one will be left with injustice, and no one will be atop of the other.
Hmm, this is true.

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sorry you're the one who claimed that so the burden of proof must be yours
The statement I made isn't exactly backed up by proof. It's backed up by my observations, though as I think about it now, I think its different than what I thought of it before. Laws prevent suffering basically, but this isn't the best way to generalize/phrase it. Laws, as you said, prevent injustice and, what I'm adding, to prevent disorder. Injustice can be seen as emotional suffering, in a way I suppose. But pff, forget what I said.

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dude, i said newborns are sentient. and fetuses are sentient too (not until 3 weeks), still killing a human is wrong. and newborns don't have emotions too, do they?
What I was saying before was that newborns can feel pain. They may not have emotions, but they can feel pain. Pain against another human without some form of consequence is injustice.

So my logic is, if the fetus can't feel any form of pain at all (or, before it develops the ability to), then there's no real injustice in killing it. Also, no one else at all should be emotionally attached to the fetus. Because killing someone who's paralyzed and mentally ill is an injustice if another person else cares for this someone.

I don't think its morally right to kill something that'll eventually become a human. The mothers should just give up the unwanted baby to adoption. However, my morality doesn't matter when debating laws. Everyone's morality is different, as Dark Aztek has said.
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Old 04-20-2006, 01:42 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by Ninja48
What I was saying before was that newborns can feel pain. They may not have emotions, but they can feel pain. Pain against another human without some form of consequence is injustice.
and i pointed out that fetuses at some point are also sentient already, so it will give them the "injustice" if they will be killed.

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So my logic is, if the fetus can't feel any form of pain at all (or, before it develops the ability to), then there's no real injustice in killing it. Also, no one else at all should be emotionally attached to the fetus. Because killing someone who's paralyzed and mentally ill is an injustice if another person else cares for this someone.
following your logic, it will be injustice to kill pigs, cows or chickens for food because they are sentient. you know, injustice for me is controlling or not respecting your rights, or a person has more rights than you.

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I don't think its morally right to kill something that'll eventually become a human. The mothers should just give up the unwanted baby to adoption. However, my morality doesn't matter when debating laws. Everyone's morality is different, as Dark Aztek has said.
i believe in that too. morals must not be a basis for debating laws. now my point, the law grants everyone the right to live, and abortion violates that right. every human is granted by law the right to live, and now i have to prove that fetuses are humans that are killed by abortion.
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Old 04-20-2006, 01:17 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by kakashi1300
and i pointed out that fetuses at some point are also sentient already, so it will give them the "injustice" if they will be killed.
Are you saying that fetuses that are sentient shouldn't be killed? I agree with that totally. But I'm not sure exactly what you mean. Do you mean this, or do you mean that a fetus will eventually be sentient (referring to a non-sentient fetus), so they shouldn't be killed?

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following your logic, it will be injustice to kill pigs, cows or chickens for food because they are sentient. you know, injustice for me is controlling or not respecting your rights, or a person has more rights than you.
Well, humans have more rights than animals do, since we're self-concious/beneficial to our own society/intelligent/whathaveyou.

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i believe in that too. morals must not be a basis for debating laws. now my point, the law grants everyone the right to live, and abortion violates that right. every human is granted by law the right to live, and now i have to prove that fetuses are humans that are killed by abortion.
I suppose this is true. You're against the death penalty then, I assume? Hmm, the thing is, for this kind of debate, you have to define when exactly is a human a human? I assume that you think it's when a sperm hits the egg. I think it's when it becomes a fetus and becomes sentient. So, to me, the thing isn't human 'till its sentient. Even if it will eventually become human, we can't judge anything 'till it actually is.
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Old 04-22-2006, 01:11 AM   #365
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninja48
I suppose this is true. You're against the death penalty then, I assume? Hmm, the thing is, for this kind of debate, you have to define when exactly is a human a human? I assume that you think it's when a sperm hits the egg. I think it's when it becomes a fetus and becomes sentient. So, to me, the thing isn't human 'till its sentient. Even if it will eventually become human, we can't judge anything 'till it actually is.
well, unfortunately for you, i have a basis. as we study genetics, we will know that our specific genetic codes are already present the moment the sperm and egg cells meet. the required genetic material for becoming a human is passed by both the egg and sperm cells at their union. in fact, we can already determine the sex of the individual by looking into their chromosomes (XX for females, XY for males). so yeah, science says it's a human from the start. now i hope you can give me a basis of where you get your claim (it's human till it's sentient thing) because if you say that, cats and cows are more human than the fetus? and no, i support death penalty. i'm all for it. now, since this is an abortion thread, let's not talk about that here.
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Old 04-22-2006, 07:52 PM   #366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kakashi1300
well, unfortunately for you, i have a basis. as we study genetics, we will know that our specific genetic codes are already present the moment the sperm and egg cells meet. the required genetic material for becoming a human is passed by both the egg and sperm cells at their union. in fact, we can already determine the sex of the individual by looking into their chromosomes (XX for females, XY for males). so yeah, science says it's a human from the start. now i hope you can give me a basis of where you get your claim (it's human till it's sentient thing) because if you say that, cats and cows are more human than the fetus? and no, i support death penalty. i'm all for it. now, since this is an abortion thread, let's not talk about that here.
Yeah I know all about genetics (Biology class, woo? lol) You're saying once those genes are present, they're human. I assume the right to live is given exclusively to humans for their intelligence. Not because they have the right genes. Before the fetus is sentient, it's just mass that contains human genes. Once electical impulses begin inside of it, however, it starts being a human. It then begins to build its' mind, to develop rational thought.
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Old 04-22-2006, 10:14 PM   #367
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It's not wrong because the baby has no thoughts or feelings, so it wouldn't know if it has died or not
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Old 04-24-2006, 08:10 AM   #368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninja48
Yeah I know all about genetics (Biology class, woo? lol) You're saying once those genes are present, they're human. I assume the right to live is given exclusively to humans for their intelligence. Not because they have the right genes. Before the fetus is sentient, it's just mass that contains human genes. Once electical impulses begin inside of it, however, it starts being a human. It then begins to build its' mind, to develop rational thought.
yeah, i say that ones the genes are present, they are human. now, i don't know what belief you are trying to point out but i can see no basis as to why we should assume that way. well everyone of us are still masses of cells, though more complex. but that is because it's only a timely difference, not a substantial one. one day a human embryo will turn into a human, and no chance whatsoever of turning into a frog or a cow, so if it is then it has to be human from the start. a frog is already a frog from embryo, so as a cow and many other living things. we all go through a stage of non-intelligence to intelligence. so according to you we should elliminate all under the intelligence stage, right? what i'm trying to say is that we should be able to distinguish the substantive and not the accidental differences of fetuses from persons already born. what's important is being called "human".
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Old 04-24-2006, 03:55 PM   #369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kakashi1300
yeah, i say that ones the genes are present, they are human. now, i don't know what belief you are trying to point out but i can see no basis as to why we should assume that way. well everyone of us are still masses of cells, though more complex.
What I was trying to point out was that there is a point in time where the fetus becomes more than just a mass of cells. And this is when electrical impulses begin across the body of the fetus, and the brain starts to develop simultaneously. This is when the fetus becomes human and gains the right to live. Like I said before, humans don't have the right to live just because our genes are organized in a certain pattern, or in other words, are considered biologically human. We have this right over other organisms because of our intelligence.

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but that is because it's only a timely difference, not a substantial one. one day a human embryo will turn into a human, and no chance whatsoever of turning into a frog or a cow, so if it is then it has to be human from the start. a frog is already a frog from embryo, so as a cow and many other living things. we all go through a stage of non-intelligence to intelligence. so according to you we should elliminate all under the intelligence stage, right? what i'm trying to say is that we should be able to distinguish the substantive and not the accidental differences of fetuses from persons already born. what's important is being called "human".
Hmm, true. But it isn't as though we should eliminate all of these non-responsive humans. We just can, if it's necessary. Oh, which reminds me of another point. If a fetus somehow threatens the mothers life, should it be removed/killed?
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Old 04-24-2006, 06:05 PM   #370
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i think its wrong cuz u know how many freakin teens get an abortion and don't live with the consequences plus u r killing human life, i mean if u did a wrong choice live with it espcially if it deals with a baby, cuz u may never know what kind of child the baby will grow up to be
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Old 04-25-2006, 06:26 AM   #371
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninja48
What I was trying to point out was that there is a point in time where the fetus becomes more than just a mass of cells. And this is when electrical impulses begin across the body of the fetus, and the brain starts to develop simultaneously. This is when the fetus becomes human and gains the right to live. Like I said before, humans don't have the right to live just because our genes are organized in a certain pattern, or in other words, are considered biologically human. We have this right over other organisms because of our intelligence.
sorry, but i guess there was no provision of the law or will there ever be that says one must have complex tissues, electrical impulses from the brain, etc., so that they will be granted the right to live. what's important is that it is human per se, which can be traced straight from the beginning. from being an embryo, that is. humans are not distinguished that way, or animals might gain more rights than ourselves when we were inside the womb. no discipline that says when a human will be a human in that way (your way i mean)

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Hmm, true. But it isn't as though we should eliminate all of these non-responsive humans. We just can, if it's necessary. Oh, which reminds me of another point. If a fetus somehow threatens the mothers life, should it be removed/killed?
eliminate all nonresponsive humans, as well as the newborns? oh well, when necessary. i wonder when will it be necessary. and for another point, abortion must only be allowed when the life of the mother is threatened. it's a lose/lose situation that must be avoided. at least save the life of the mother when either way the fetus will die.
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Old 04-25-2006, 03:30 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by kakashi1300
sorry, but i guess there was no provision of the law or will there ever be that says one must have complex tissues, electrical impulses from the brain, etc., so that they will be granted the right to live. what's important is that it is human per se, which can be traced straight from the beginning. from being an embryo, that is. humans are not distinguished that way, or animals might gain more rights than ourselves when we were inside the womb. no discipline that says when a human will be a human in that way (your way i mean)
I'm not trying to say where we begin to be human, I'm trying to define when the fetus has the right to live. So first, this question must be asked. What gives us the right to live over other organisms? I say, because of our intelligence. Not because are genes are arranged the way they are for a human. We don't have rights because our tissue is biologically human. It's our working and developing brains.

The fetus really isn't a thinking human until brain activity actually starts, which is when electrical impulses in the fetus begin. Since our brains grants us rights, logically, once a human fetus' brain starts to work, it gains the right to live. Before this, it's just a lump of growing flesh. Although, the fact that it will eventually become responsive is pretty tough to debate. I'll try to lay it out later.

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eliminate all nonresponsive humans, as well as the newborns? oh well, when necessary. i wonder when will it be necessary. and for another point, abortion must only be allowed when the life of the mother is threatened. it's a lose/lose situation that must be avoided. at least save the life of the mother when either way the fetus will die.
Ugh. You still don't get my point. Newborns are responsive, dude. Fetuses before x weeks are not.
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Old 04-26-2006, 12:27 AM   #373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninja48
I'm not trying to say where we begin to be human, I'm trying to define when the fetus has the right to live. So first, this question must be asked. What gives us the right to live over other organisms? I say, because of our intelligence. Not because are genes are arranged the way they are for a human. We don't have rights because our tissue is biologically human. It's our working and developing brains.

The fetus really isn't a thinking human until brain activity actually starts, which is when electrical impulses in the fetus begin. Since our brains grants us rights, logically, once a human fetus' brain starts to work, it gains the right to live. Before this, it's just a lump of growing flesh. Although, the fact that it will eventually become responsive is pretty tough to debate. I'll try to lay it out later.
but since we're debating about a law, one's speculation over a matter must not rule out as well as one's morals and religions. they are all subjective. i believe you could give me at least a discipline that says the same as your point, or i could also fight with my own beliefs in this matter, w/c will lead us to nowhere. i'm still holding my ground firmly that genetics says humans are humans from fertlization up to death.

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Ugh. You still don't get my point. Newborns are responsive, dude. Fetuses before x weeks are not.
no, every living things are responsive. in fact it is a characteristic that separates a non-living from a living thing, the ability to react to a stimulus. now, if you mean a different thing then please tell me again.
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