You all knew it was comming... ABORTION - Page 4

flareofdragon · 01-05-2006, 11:51 PM

Killing a fetus whatever. Personally its more of a decision to: are you responsible for your actions?

And no, I would take care of the baby if it came down to it. Just because I support the choice of abortion does not mean I personally would want to use it.

Matonly1T · 01-05-2006, 11:54 PM

understandable, ditto for me i want tons o children.

palmereap · 01-06-2006, 01:17 AM

true you are stop a life tha could have been born and there could have been more genuis anyway i thinks its bad and you should a least give it up for adoption

«Artos» · 01-06-2006, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flareofdragon

Killing a fetus whatever. Personally its more of a decision to: are you responsible for your actions?

And no, I would take care of the baby if it came down to it. Just because I support the choice of abortion does not mean I personally would want to use it.

Its not a personal decision. The baby isnt you. You dont die from abortions, lol.
Your decision dectates whether or not a human lives or dies, but it was never YOUR decision to make. I dont know how may times ive had to say this, but, again, what gives you the right?

DarkAztek · 01-06-2006, 02:09 PM

Let me address more of the common pieces people have said in here:

"It could be born as a genius, so killing it will be like killing off the guy who discovers the cure for AIDs!" Yeah, that argumental fallacy can be applied the other way around. Imagine a world where Adolf Hitler had been aborted. Where Osama bin Laden had been aborted.

"It is alive!" No. A fetus has no electrical activity (brain activity) in its spinal cord and its head until about 6 weeks or so have passed. Only then can that lump of flesh be considered to be "alive." Before those six weeks, it is NO different than my appendix.

"It has a soul!" That is purely a religious belief based upon opinion and cannot be made to determine whether or not abortion should be allowed. Furthuremore, by the definition of a soul (a person's personality and "living" after death), does not occur until later in life... The personality of a baby forms through its enviornment and we remember it for the actions it took, which is "living" after death.

"The parents aren't taking responsability!" No, that is pure speculation. I know that whenever I have sex, I use a spermicidal condom and I happen to own the "day after" pill. Am I not taking responsability because I do not want to have a child right now? What if I had a vasectomy and had sex with my wife and she got pregnant? Am I still not responsable?

Or what about a high school girl who wants to have sex? It is not your right to say that she is not mentally and physically ready for it. She gets pregnant because the condom tore (about 1 in 200 chance if used properly). If she has the kid, then her entire life will be ruined. She will never be able to go to college and might not be able to graduate high school. Is SHE not taking responsability?

And what of an extremely poor person who is unable to raise the child?

"But she can give it to adoption lollerskatez!" This argument can go either way... After carrying a baby for nine months and having your hormones raging over it, you don't want to just give away your baby. I've been to enough psychological group therapy meetings on grief counseling for mothers who give away their children to know exactly how hard it is. Giving away something that you carried for almost a year inside of you and you protected it means that you grow attached to it immediately.

Now the counter argument to what I just said could be that aborting the fetus will cause just as much grief. True, in some cases, it can cause a mother to fall into depression. So can giving it away. Which is "worse"? That is hard to say. But I do recognize that putting the child up for adoption is a good idea... But then again we arrive to one of the biggest arguments for allowing abortions:

It is the MOTHER'S right to choose. (And yes, the father should have no say in it. Why? Because he does not have to invest in the child the same way that the mother does. Ever. He cannot give birth to it and cannot carry it. Therefore, it is entirely the mother's decision.) She can say if she does not want it and no other person has the right to say that she cannot. It is not murder. If we counted abortion as murder, then we would have to count self mutilation as murder as well.

"Who gives the mother the right!?" She does. The United States recognizes that parents have full control over a child's habits until the age of 18. It also dictates that a mother can live how she desires and can decide if she wants to raise a child or not. Those are basic foundations of our government. The fetus is not alive and cannot choose if it wants to enter the world or not and, just like the rest of us, cannot choose how or when it will leave the world too. The mother is a piece of the baby until it is born. The mother pretty much has a symbiotic relationship with the fetus.

"Religion morality!!!1!" Pardon me, but the Old Testament clearly states that it is not a crime to abort a fetus until the baby's head is outside of the mother and it has its first breath of air. The OT teaches that with the first breath of air, its soul enters its body. Life (or really, a soul's life) does not begin at conception. But as we all know anyway, religion has no place in government... At least, not in the US's government.

"Look at deese abortion photos!" Okay. Great. Nothing like shock value trying to gross out people. I guess that proves you are right, roflcopter?! No, wait. That's pure lunacy. I could prove to you that measures need to be taken to ensure all gay rights by showing you photos of the dead body of Matt Shepard. What about the death penalty? Or hunting? Or surgury? Or anal sex? Shall I show you pictures of severally depressed women to sway you? Shock value proves nothing.

Now here is where the hypocrisy lies that I have been DYING to point out: For those of you who are against abortion, are you also against the death penalty? Because if you aren't, then you're a huge fucking hypocrite.

KyoichiKanami · 01-06-2006, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by «Artos»

Your completly short of the point, yet again.You say i "control others", but you dont see me out there stopping people from having abortions, and i dont say we should restrict their choices because their not the same as my own, and you'd have to be retarded to possibly think that. I think that abortions are wrong because no one has the right to take anothers life without concequence, so lets say all those who kill a fetus suffer the penalty of death. Killing a fetus is still killing a human, regardless of weather its out of the womb or not. No one wants to beat around the bush, whether its techically murder or not, the fact is clear, you KILLED another human for personal gain, meaning you should suffer as they did. Meaning death sentence for abortion.

First of all, I called out no names, as I rarely do. As far as the rest of the post, you contradict yourself. You're now saying we shouldn't take away the choice of abortion because you don't have the same beliefs. If that's the case, what's the point of this argument. The whole reasoning behind all this is because some people believe life begins at conception, and others do not. You believe that a life begins at conception, and by the time it has become a fetus, it is already human. I, however, think that life only begins at birth. Therefore, in my eyes, it's quite fine for abortion to happen. And you think it is the murder of a human being. It was the same in the rap post. People were turning on one another and insulting and this and that because their beliefs aren't the same. There will never be a time when everyone truly believes the exact same thing in the exact same way. Plus, with the death sentence, you contradict yourself again. You say no human has the right to take another's life. If this is the case, how can you support the death penalty, which is simply murdering someone?

@Dark Aztek: I didn't see your post till after I had posted, but you hit exactly what I was trying to say.

k-strife · 01-06-2006, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matonly1T

If you had a choice when having a kid would you want a healthy boy or girl? or a mentally retard kid?

So basically you're saying that if you had a mentally retarded kid you would love them less than you would a regular kid.

If I had a mentally retarded kid i would not LOVE him/her ANY less. Some parents really want to have a boy but yet they get a girl. Just because they didn't get what they want, should they just discard them?

I actually have a close friend who has had an abortion. It's something that she regrets immensely. I don't agree with abortion and I find it wrong... instead of taking the easy way out why don't you grow up and accept the responsibilities for your actions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkAztek

Now here is where the hypocrisy lies that I have been DYING to point out: For those of you who are against abortion, are you also against the death penalty? Because if you aren't, then you're a huge fucking hypocrite.

Tell me, what crime has the child committed? I'm all for "an eye for an eye". Which is why i think you should really think twice before you have an abortion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkAztek

"The parents aren't taking responsability!" No, that is pure speculation. I know that whenever I have sex, I use a spermicidal condom and I happen to own the "day after" pill. Am I not taking responsability because I do not want to have a child right now? What if I had a vasectomy and had sex with my wife and she got pregnant? Am I still not responsable?

Or what about a high school girl who wants to have sex? It is not your right to say that she is not mentally and physically ready for it. She gets pregnant because the condom tore (about 1 in 200 chance if used properly). If she has the kid, then her entire life will be ruined. She will never be able to go to college and might not be able to graduate high school. Is SHE not taking responsability?

And what of an extremely poor person who is unable to raise the child?

You do all that stuff KNOWING there is still a chance to get pregnant. If you don't want a child then you SHOULDN'T be doing it int he first place. oh so your condom broke, boo f*cken hoo, you took that chance. There are OTHER ways BESIDES vaginal intercourse that you can get pleasure and still show affection. You should only have sex if you believe you are READY and willing to ACCEPT the results. THAT is what responsibility is.

flareofdragon · 01-06-2006, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by «Artos»

Its not a personal decision. The baby isnt you. You dont die from abortions, lol.
Your decision dectates whether or not a human lives or dies, but it was never YOUR decision to make. I dont know how may times ive had to say this, but, again, what gives you the right?

I do not care? I am owning up to my actions, that is A PERSONAL decision. I am saying that if I ever make that mistake (unprotected sex, which I am not planning on anyway), I will take responsibility of my action.

Killing fetuses, whatever. Its about making a mistake (like having sex for sex) and owning up to the situations that came up. That is a decision.

And if I died from an abortion.... I died from an abortion. I do not really mind considering I would not have seen the world yet.

Matonly1T · 01-06-2006, 05:55 PM

Quote:

So basically you're saying that if you had a mentally retarded kid you would love them less than you would a regular kid.

If I had a mentally retarded kid i would not LOVE him/her ANY less. Some parents really want to have a boy but yet they get a girl. Just because they didn't get what they want, should they just discard them?

I actually have a close friend who has had an abortion. It's something that she regrets immensely. I don't agree with abortion and I find it wrong... instead of taking the easy way out why don't you grow up and accept the responsibilities for your actions.

k-strife please dont put words into my mouth, but tell me which would you prefer? a healthy girl or boy or a retarded kid. <thats what i was asking> & just for your information even if i had a retarded kid id always love him or her.

«Artos» · 01-06-2006, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KyoichiKanami

First of all, I called out no names, as I rarely do. As far as the rest of the post, you contradict yourself. You're now saying we shouldn't take away the choice of abortion because you don't have the same beliefs. If that's the case, what's the point of this argument. The whole reasoning behind all this is because some people believe life begins at conception, and others do not. You believe that a life begins at conception, and by the time it has become a fetus, it is already human. I, however, think that life only begins at birth. Therefore, in my eyes, it's quite fine for abortion to happen. And you think it is the murder of a human being. It was the same in the rap post. People were turning on one another and insulting and this and that because their beliefs aren't the same. There will never be a time when everyone truly believes the exact same thing in the exact same way. Plus, with the death sentence, you contradict yourself again. You say no human has the right to take another's life. If this is the case, how can you support the death penalty, which is simply murdering someone?

@Dark Aztek: I didn't see your post till after I had posted, but you hit exactly what I was trying to say.

You dont uderstand what i posted, i said i dont want their choises restricted because of MY personal beliefs, i want their choices restricted because of common morality. Would you murder a one month old baby? No, so how can you kill a fetus? Death senence for abortion, simple enough, i see no contradictions. as for the rest of you think about this, whos life is more important, that of a soon to be born childs, or your life?

KyoichiKanami · 01-06-2006, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by «Artos»

You dont uderstand what i posted, i said i dont want their choises restricted because of MY personal beliefs, i want their choices restricted because of common morality. Would you murder a one month old baby? No, so how can you kill a fetus? Death senence for abortion, simple enough, i see no contradictions. as for the rest of you think about this, whos life is more important, that of a soon to be born childs, or your life?

Okay, but it's the same basically. They're morality is not the same as yours, so it boils back down to the belief that all people have the same standards. You can't call any set of morality issues or beliefs common because not everyone in the world will believe the same things you do. It's nice and all that you cna consider it a murder, but let's think of it from the child's position. Quite personally, I'd rather be killed if I knew there was no hope for me to have a decent life. If my parent(s) did not love me, if I would simply be dumped in some place to either die or live in the worst possible conditions, I would want to not be brought into this world. All you can ever do is account for yourself. And you keep missing the contradiction about the murder sentence. You say killing period is wrong, correct? Then why kill someone who's killed another? What makes you any better than the murderer? Because you're killing for justice or punishing someone? No murder can be justified as a punishment. The way things are today, it seems, the government feels the need to take away all free choice of the people.

k-strife · 01-06-2006, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matonly1T

k-strife please dont put words into my mouth, but tell me which would you prefer? a healthy girl or boy or a retarded kid. <thats what i was asking> & just for your information even if i had a retarded kid id always love him or her.

I wouldnt care really, i'd take whatever was given to me.

You say that you'd love your retarded kid, but yet you have a problem with them being retarded. It contradicts itself.

«Artos» · 01-06-2006, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KyoichiKanami

Okay, but it's the same basically. They're morality is not the same as yours, so it boils back down to the belief that all people have the same standards. You can't call any set of morality issues or beliefs common because not everyone in the world will believe the same things you do. It's nice and all that you cna consider it a murder, but let's think of it from the child's position. Quite personally, I'd rather be killed if I knew there was no hope for me to have a decent life. If my parent(s) did not love me, if I would simply be dumped in some place to either die or live in the worst possible conditions, I would want to not be brought into this world. All you can ever do is account for yourself. And you keep missing the contradiction about the murder sentence. You say killing period is wrong, correct? Then why kill someone who's killed another? What makes you any better than the murderer? Because you're killing for justice or punishing someone? No murder can be justified as a punishment. The way things are today, it seems, the government feels the need to take away all free choice of the people.

Note the word "common" in my post, its like common sence for morals. you see, an example of a common moral, is somthing like this. You dont and murder other humans. Simple isnt it? You assume that everyone who is sane knows not to kill others. That my friend, is a common moral. It applies here.

Off topic: You could be Emo, seek help.

Makoto_Duke_War_IV · 01-06-2006, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkAztek

Let me address more of the common pieces people have said in here:

"It could be born as a genius, so killing it will be like killing off the guy who discovers the cure for AIDs!" Yeah, that argumental fallacy can be applied the other way around. Imagine a world where Adolf Hitler had been aborted. Where Osama bin Laden had been aborted.

"It is alive!" No. A fetus has no electrical activity (brain activity) in its spinal cord and its head until about 6 weeks or so have passed. Only then can that lump of flesh be considered to be "alive." Before those six weeks, it is NO different than my appendix.

"It has a soul!" That is purely a religious belief based upon opinion and cannot be made to determine whether or not abortion should be allowed. Furthuremore, by the definition of a soul (a person's personality and "living" after death), does not occur until later in life... The personality of a baby forms through its enviornment and we remember it for the actions it took, which is "living" after death.

"The parents aren't taking responsability!" No, that is pure speculation. I know that whenever I have sex, I use a spermicidal condom and I happen to own the "day after" pill. Am I not taking responsability because I do not want to have a child right now? What if I had a vasectomy and had sex with my wife and she got pregnant? Am I still not responsable?

Or what about a high school girl who wants to have sex? It is not your right to say that she is not mentally and physically ready for it. She gets pregnant because the condom tore (about 1 in 200 chance if used properly). If she has the kid, then her entire life will be ruined. She will never be able to go to college and might not be able to graduate high school. Is SHE not taking responsability?

And what of an extremely poor person who is unable to raise the child?

"But she can give it to adoption lollerskatez!" This argument can go either way... After carrying a baby for nine months and having your hormones raging over it, you don't want to just give away your baby. I've been to enough psychological group therapy meetings on grief counseling for mothers who give away their children to know exactly how hard it is. Giving away something that you carried for almost a year inside of you and you protected it means that you grow attached to it immediately.

Now the counter argument to what I just said could be that aborting the fetus will cause just as much grief. True, in some cases, it can cause a mother to fall into depression. So can giving it away. Which is "worse"? That is hard to say. But I do recognize that putting the child up for adoption is a good idea... But then again we arrive to one of the biggest arguments for allowing abortions:

It is the MOTHER'S right to choose. (And yes, the father should have no say in it. Why? Because he does not have to invest in the child the same way that the mother does. Ever. He cannot give birth to it and cannot carry it. Therefore, it is entirely the mother's decision.) She can say if she does not want it and no other person has the right to say that she cannot. It is not murder. If we counted abortion as murder, then we would have to count self mutilation as murder as well.

"Who gives the mother the right!?" She does. The United States recognizes that parents have full control over a child's habits until the age of 18. It also dictates that a mother can live how she desires and can decide if she wants to raise a child or not. Those are basic foundations of our government. The fetus is not alive and cannot choose if it wants to enter the world or not and, just like the rest of us, cannot choose how or when it will leave the world too. The mother is a piece of the baby until it is born. The mother pretty much has a symbiotic relationship with the fetus.

"Religion morality!!!1!" Pardon me, but the Old Testament clearly states that it is not a crime to abort a fetus until the baby's head is outside of the mother and it has its first breath of air. The OT teaches that with the first breath of air, its soul enters its body. Life (or really, a soul's life) does not begin at conception. But as we all know anyway, religion has no place in government... At least, not in the US's government.

"Look at deese abortion photos!" Okay. Great. Nothing like shock value trying to gross out people. I guess that proves you are right, roflcopter?! No, wait. That's pure lunacy. I could prove to you that measures need to be taken to ensure all gay rights by showing you photos of the dead body of Matt Shepard. What about the death penalty? Or hunting? Or surgury? Or anal sex? Shall I show you pictures of severally depressed women to sway you? Shock value proves nothing.

Now here is where the hypocrisy lies that I have been DYING to point out: For those of you who are against abortion, are you also against the death penalty? Because if you aren't, then you're a huge fucking hypocrite.

Wow copy and paste fun, ne?

Matonly1T · 01-06-2006, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by k-strife

I wouldnt care really, i'd take whatever was given to me.

You say that you'd love your retarded kid, but yet you have a problem with them being retarded. It contradicts itself.

you didnt answer the question which would you rather prefer? theres no middle ground to that question. i never said i had a problem with retarded kids just i rather prefer to have normal kids

01-05-2006, 11:51 PM	#46
flareofdragon Hunter-Nin Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 1,055 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Killing a fetus whatever. Personally its more of a decision to: are you responsible for your actions? And no, I would take care of the baby if it came down to it. Just because I support the choice of abortion does not mean I personally would want to use it. __________________ freerice.com flareofdragon.deviantart.com

01-05-2006, 11:54 PM	#47
Matonly1T ANBU Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NY Age: 26 Posts: 1,829 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	understandable, ditto for me i want tons o children. __________________ Co-Owner

01-06-2006, 01:17 AM	#48
palmereap Kage Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5,209 Thanks: 0 Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts	true you are stop a life tha could have been born and there could have been more genuis anyway i thinks its bad and you should a least give it up for adoption __________________ My Photobucket - My Deviantart - My Youtube SOTW #3 - winner :Akatsuki FC: :Ninja Girls FC: :War of Sharingan FC: :Legend Of Zelda FC: Kitty is my perverted glitter sis

01-06-2006, 02:09 PM	#50
DarkAztek Sand Man Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Massachusetts Age: 30 Posts: 3,324 Thanks: 64 Thanked 583 Times in 190 Posts	Let me address more of the common pieces people have said in here: "It could be born as a genius, so killing it will be like killing off the guy who discovers the cure for AIDs!" Yeah, that argumental fallacy can be applied the other way around. Imagine a world where Adolf Hitler had been aborted. Where Osama bin Laden had been aborted. "It is alive!" No. A fetus has no electrical activity (brain activity) in its spinal cord and its head until about 6 weeks or so have passed. Only then can that lump of flesh be considered to be "alive." Before those six weeks, it is NO different than my appendix. "It has a soul!" That is purely a religious belief based upon opinion and cannot be made to determine whether or not abortion should be allowed. Furthuremore, by the definition of a soul (a person's personality and "living" after death), does not occur until later in life... The personality of a baby forms through its enviornment and we remember it for the actions it took, which is "living" after death. "The parents aren't taking responsability!" No, that is pure speculation. I know that whenever I have sex, I use a spermicidal condom and I happen to own the "day after" pill. Am I not taking responsability because I do not want to have a child right now? What if I had a vasectomy and had sex with my wife and she got pregnant? Am I still not responsable? Or what about a high school girl who wants to have sex? It is not your right to say that she is not mentally and physically ready for it. She gets pregnant because the condom tore (about 1 in 200 chance if used properly). If she has the kid, then her entire life will be ruined. She will never be able to go to college and might not be able to graduate high school. Is SHE not taking responsability? And what of an extremely poor person who is unable to raise the child? "But she can give it to adoption lollerskatez!" This argument can go either way... After carrying a baby for nine months and having your hormones raging over it, you don't want to just give away your baby. I've been to enough psychological group therapy meetings on grief counseling for mothers who give away their children to know exactly how hard it is. Giving away something that you carried for almost a year inside of you and you protected it means that you grow attached to it immediately. Now the counter argument to what I just said could be that aborting the fetus will cause just as much grief. True, in some cases, it can cause a mother to fall into depression. So can giving it away. Which is "worse"? That is hard to say. But I do recognize that putting the child up for adoption is a good idea... But then again we arrive to one of the biggest arguments for allowing abortions: It is the MOTHER'S right to choose. (And yes, the father should have no say in it. Why? Because he does not have to invest in the child the same way that the mother does. Ever. He cannot give birth to it and cannot carry it. Therefore, it is entirely the mother's decision.) She can say if she does not want it and no other person has the right to say that she cannot. It is not murder. If we counted abortion as murder, then we would have to count self mutilation as murder as well. "Who gives the mother the right!?" She does. The United States recognizes that parents have full control over a child's habits until the age of 18. It also dictates that a mother can live how she desires and can decide if she wants to raise a child or not. Those are basic foundations of our government. The fetus is not alive and cannot choose if it wants to enter the world or not and, just like the rest of us, cannot choose how or when it will leave the world too. The mother is a piece of the baby until it is born. The mother pretty much has a symbiotic relationship with the fetus. "Religion morality!!!1!" Pardon me, but the Old Testament clearly states that it is not a crime to abort a fetus until the baby's head is outside of the mother and it has its first breath of air. The OT teaches that with the first breath of air, its soul enters its body. Life (or really, a soul's life) does not begin at conception. But as we all know anyway, religion has no place in government... At least, not in the US's government. "Look at deese abortion photos!" Okay. Great. Nothing like shock value trying to gross out people. I guess that proves you are right, roflcopter?! No, wait. That's pure lunacy. I could prove to you that measures need to be taken to ensure all gay rights by showing you photos of the dead body of Matt Shepard. What about the death penalty? Or hunting? Or surgury? Or anal sex? Shall I show you pictures of severally depressed women to sway you? Shock value proves nothing. Now here is where the hypocrisy lies that I have been DYING to point out: For those of you who are against abortion, are you also against the death penalty? Because if you aren't, then you're a huge fucking hypocrite. __________________ [CENTER] Nam Myōhō Renge Kyō[/CENTER] [CENTER] [IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/HookerBodyShots/shark.jpg[/IMG][/CENTER] [center][b]Filler content[/b][/center]

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