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Old 01-10-2006, 11:16 AM   #91
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You know there are many forms of abortion, such as Saline poisoning, that happen late in pregnacy, where the baby can feel, think, and move. It isnt that far gone from a born baby and is certanly sentient.
Why do you always miss the fact that I keep saying abortion is okay up to that 4 week period in all cases? Until the fetus becomes sentient, it CANNOT feel pain, think, or move on its own volition.
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Old 01-10-2006, 10:24 PM   #92
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Huh ... think 1st before you doit cause you might regret it later on ...
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Old 01-11-2006, 02:51 AM   #93
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According to the teachings of Judaism, it is not taking a life. In fact, at one point in the OT, it says that a baby's soul enters it durings its first breath. Additionally, from my more scientific outlook that I have upon the world, I do not believe what biology tells me that it is not sentient until later on.
judaism follows moises' laws. but we catholics follow Jesus', so if your'e saying that abortion is okay with your religion, i dont believe it. because as far as i know, moses was handed by God the ten commandments. and what's the 5th commandment say? "Thou shall not kill." So let us say you made a mistake, and your'e months all the way, but you never wanted the baby, so you will abort him coz you dont feel like having a "baby". Isn't it killing? unless your'e baby died "naturally", meaning of natural cause, inside your womb and you have to abort him so it wont poison your body, that is where abortion is look up as not immoral.
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Why do you always miss the fact that I keep saying abortion is okay up to that 4 week period in all cases? Until the fetus becomes sentient, it CANNOT feel pain, think, or move on its own volition.
does because the baby does not feel any pain or dont move on its own violation means you can actually abort a baby? can you please go beyond that situation. a life starts after the fertilazation, meaning, after the sex cells united. and if you "consiously" abort the baby, you are killing it. in heaven when you meet (or if you do meet) him, there you will hear millions of accusations the baby will throw into you for not giving him a chance of seeing the world.
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Old 01-11-2006, 03:33 AM   #94
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judaism follows moises' laws. but we catholics follow Jesus', so if your'e saying that abortion is okay with your religion, i dont believe it. because as far as i know, moses was handed by God the ten commandments. and what's the 5th commandment say? "Thou shall not kill." So let us say you made a mistake, and your'e months all the way, but you never wanted the baby, so you will abort him coz you dont feel like having a "baby". Isn't it killing? unless your'e baby died "naturally", meaning of natural cause, inside your womb and you have to abort him so it wont poison your body, that is where abortion is look up as not immoral.
#1 - The Commandments are not our only laws.

#2 - A body without a soul is simply what is known in Jewish lore as a golem. (No, for real. Google the origins and you'll read all about it.) Until the child takes its first breath, it has no soul. Please, I study Judaism regularly.

#3 - If we say abortion is not moral because of the 5th Commandment, then guess what? You're fucked policially. That's right, the United States has declared itself again and again to be secular. The US has a SBCaS that prevents us from making laws based upon religion's rules.

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does because the baby does not feel any pain or dont move on its own violation means you can actually abort a baby? can you please go beyond that situation. a life starts after the fertilazation, meaning, after the sex cells united. and if you "consiously" abort the baby, you are killing it. in heaven when you meet (or if you do meet) him, there you will hear millions of accusations the baby will throw into you for not giving him a chance of seeing the world.
It is not a PERSON yet! You are arguing yourself in circles by ignoring key facts.
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Old 01-11-2006, 04:13 AM   #95
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#1 - The Commandments are not our only laws.

#2 - A body without a soul is simply what is known in Jewish lore as a golem. (No, for real. Google the origins and you'll read all about it.) Until the child takes its first breath, it has no soul. Please, I study Judaism regularly.

#3 - If we say abortion is not moral because of the 5th Commandment, then guess what? You're fucked policially. That's right, the United States has declared itself again and again to be secular. The US has a SBCaS that prevents us from making laws based upon religion's rules.
ok. so you are jewish, im a catholic. we'll never convince each other. last sem, we took up theo. 3, which is about the morality of life. are you saying that because a baby in a womb dont have a soul of its own, he has no right, definitely no right to live? do you mean that a mother can have all the freedom to abort every baby she could have because "oh i dont mind, this child has no soul..." is that what you mean? well. you know what? Your'e so bias! You never look on either side, or even think of the consequences of killing a baby. only because "it has no soul" does not mean you can abort! i'm telling you, a baby on a womb do have a soul! its faulse that only on the time the baby first breath will he have soul! that fucking idea! a baby dont breath inside the womb because he's lungs aren't working yet. he's getting all the air from his mother. the baby's life depends upon the mother carrying him.

ok, shall we say, a month after the conception, or even earlier than that, a baby has already a life of its own. dont you go comparing a baby from, what is it? " a seed of a tree" is that right? well, a seed dont need to have a mother for him to be born, he has just to be thrown in a soil to burst forth. a baby dont. he needs his mother. what the mother do will affect him.

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It is not a PERSON yet! You are arguing yourself in circles by ignoring key facts
rofl... your'e too narrow minded. just because a fertilized egg does not look like you does not mean that he's not a person. he will be! in due time. because he was alive. a person undergo developments, like from being a toddler to maturism. it so happens that a baby on the womb was the first to be develope, so he should have undergo changes and development, but he is too a person! an undeveloped, un-matured person!
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That's right, the United States has declared itself again and again to be secular. The US has a SBCaS that prevents us from making laws based upon religion's rules.
that's the reason why Bush's opponent during his second candidacy for presidency did not win, because he favors abortion.
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Old 01-11-2006, 12:36 PM   #96
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ok. so you are jewish, im a catholic. we'll never convince each other. last sem, we took up theo. 3, which is about the morality of life. are you saying that because a baby in a womb dont have a soul of its own, he has no right, definitely no right to live? do you mean that a mother can have all the freedom to abort every baby she could have because "oh i dont mind, this child has no soul..." is that what you mean? well. you know what? Your'e so bias! You never look on either side, or even think of the consequences of killing a baby. only because "it has no soul" does not mean you can abort! i'm telling you, a baby on a womb do have a soul! its faulse that only on the time the baby first breath will he have soul! that fucking idea! a baby dont breath inside the womb because he's lungs aren't working yet. he's getting all the air from his mother. the baby's life depends upon the mother carrying him.
This debate is getting more and more stupid. It doesn't matter what either of our religion's think. Religion cannot be taken into thought when we decide what to do with abortion. I've already told you why more than once.

I'm biased? Don't you mean "I have a different view"? I am not a judge on a criminal court right now, so how can there be bias? We're freakin' having a debate. A DUH, we're both are opinionated. Oh noesch!

And yeah, I do look to see how others feel. How else do you think I came to the conclusion that I did today? I've heard evidence from both sides and went with the stronger one. If it was proved that sentience occured upon fertilization, then I would probably be more on the other side. So don't go flinging names around just because you cannot argue with my logic.

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rofl... your'e too narrow minded. just because a fertilized egg does not look like you does not mean that he's not a person. he will be! in due time. because he was alive. a person undergo developments, like from being a toddler to maturism. it so happens that a baby on the womb was the first to be develope, so he should have undergo changes and development, but he is too a person! an undeveloped, un-matured person!
Yeah, you're right that it doesn't look like us and that should not be a reason to decide if a fetus can be aborted. Know what IS a reason? Sentience. And a mother's choice / need.

A fetus in the womb cannot be compared to a born child developing. The born child has sentience. It's as simple as that.

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that's the reason why Bush's opponent during his second candidacy for presidency did not win, because he favors abortion.
Or it was because he never took a clear stance on anything and had the personality of a rock... And yet he STILL came close to winning and would have won if people in the 18-23 category had more people getting out and voting. But hey, make all the assumptions and bogus assertations that you want. It doesn't make it true.
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Old 01-11-2006, 07:17 PM   #97
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Yes its not ok .. because abortion meaning taking another life eventhough it isnt in a complete form yet .
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Old 01-12-2006, 02:48 AM   #98
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Yes its not ok .. because abortion meaning taking another life eventhough it isnt in a complete form yet .
yeah, you are right. abortion is taking one's life, no matter what you say. all the religions, except yours, believe that abortion is killing. and dont say that religion is not to be taken in thought when it comes to abortion coz it is to be judge by morality. the morality of the woman, and the morality of what she is doing. what do you think would happen to the morality of the society if in case abortion is legalized? ppl killing their babies? well, as i'd said, there are situations where aborting a child is considered, such as when the child died in natural cause inside the womb, or if the baby would threaten the life of the mother so he should be aborted. but aborting the child without a reason, or maybe the mother is afraid or not ready to have a baby, is another case. you got that?
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Old 01-12-2006, 01:28 PM   #99
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Uh oh! Hyperbole police!

All of the religions view abortion as taking a life? Oh no, no. That simply is not true. It all depends upon interpretation of each religion. I see how the Torah tells me that a baby's first breath has its soul enter it, but other Jews might see it differently than I do. Catholics too. All types of religions.

But again, as you always seem to forget, religion should never equal law in the US. Why do you think there are so many people who think abortion SHOULD be allowed? Why do you think women at protests chant "Get your rosearies off my ovaries!" and such? Separation of Church and State. US declared itself secular. Laws cannot be made upon a religion's decision.

Morality is subjective.
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Old 01-12-2006, 09:07 PM   #100
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yes. but the laws of the government are not only laws that we should follow. there's the law of the Church. but of course, you would not consider that.
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A fetus in the womb cannot be compared to a born child developing. The born child has sentience. It's as simple as that.
"sentience" my ass. there are stages of development for humans, as our biology and psychology professors told us. the first stage is the pre-natal. and you know exactly what happens during the pre-natal. believe it or not, me, you, all of us here come from two single cells, which are the sperm and the egg cell. so if your'e saying that a fetus or embryo
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abortion is okay up to that 4 week period in all cases?
well, you are wrong. we are talking about humans here. not damn animals!
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Old 01-12-2006, 09:50 PM   #101
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Mmk, abortion is clearly not my forté...in fact I really don't have one of those. I know that we all come from 2 cells, yes. but every month girls from the approx the ages of 12-46...[o.O guessing don't remember all my sex ed] lose 4 of 1 of those cells [of course only 1 is uhh wats the word...well good] and guys loose millions every time they have sex. So what's ur point?

And if these pregnant girls at the age of 15 really don't want to have a baby, how much of a chance do you think there is that she's gonna just sit there for 9 months letting something grow in her. Why do you think babies are getting thrown into garbage bags? Drowning babies? Killing babies? My cousin went into a public washroom at her university and she saw a girl shoving a knife up her cunt screaming "I'm not having a baby". Hormones make you do funny things...or sad. you know, that works too. Abortion was created for a reason, I'm assuming it's safer than trying to shove a knife into your uterus.

In your eyes abortion could be 'killing' a lot of babies, but it's also hypothetically saving a lot of lives. [I don't know how old you are so I'm just gonna take a stab at you being in highschool] Say you got raped by...a neighbour...and you were in ovulation, so you got pregnant. Are you saying you would be perfectly okay with delivering this baby? Even if you had to drop out of highschool? Get a job so you can take care of it? Dashing possibly all dreams you've ever had. Possibly losing all friends you've ever had? Being called a whore, because when ppl see you. They're not gonna think, oh poor girl only [insert age here] and already with a baby. They're gonna think, whore. It may be your resposibility to bring up the child, but it's also your responsiblity to ensure your future, and having a baby would probably kill a lot of futures for a lot of pregnant girls. If they can fix they're future by getting an abortion, don't you think it's likely that they get it?

Not religious. Don't believe in souls. I think it's wrong to kill someone someone-else loves. And if the 'mother' of the fetus doesn't love it, then death be to it. Don't go and talk about hobos, becuase I don't think they should be killed either becuase other hobos probably love them. but if I were a hobo I'd probably suicide. o.O =D and don't tell me god loves it, because how certain am I that there is a god? and like DA said earlier, there is a good chance it will turn into something great, there is an equal chance it will turn into something horrible.
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Old 01-12-2006, 10:50 PM   #102
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Meh, I'm against abortion. Except under some circumstances, i.e rape. Other than that, tough luck.
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Old 01-13-2006, 02:30 AM   #103
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Mmk, abortion is clearly not my forté...in fact I really don't have one of those. I know that we all come from 2 cells, yes. but every month girls from the approx the ages of 12-46...[o.O guessing don't remember all my sex ed] lose 4 of 1 of those cells [of course only 1 is uhh wats the word...well good] and guys loose millions every time they have sex. So what's ur point?
my point is that two cells that united. that's conception. and what that loosing of cells every months for girls is menstruation. it's common and natural. and healthy.
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And if these pregnant girls at the age of 15 really don't want to have a baby, how much of a chance do you think there is that she's gonna just sit there for 9 months letting something grow in her. Why do you think babies are getting thrown into garbage bags? Drowning babies? Killing babies? My cousin went into a public washroom at her university and she saw a girl shoving a knife up her cunt screaming "I'm not having a baby". Hormones make you do funny things...or sad. you know, that works too. Abortion was created for a reason, I'm assuming it's safer than trying to shove a knife into your uterus.
well, i believe that's the consequences of premarital sex. abortion only becomes an option if premarital sex is done (if the girl is preggy)
sex is a gift from God. it is sacred. Not all ppl can produce their own baby. so we should give importance to that. babies are only given to you because you deserve it. that's your destiny. do you think God would be happy if He sees you cutting yourself with a knife to loose the baby? well, not. there's a reason behind that. because the girl commited herself to premarital sex, she had to pay its consequences, that is, to bear th child with her. no one told her to that (premarital sex), so she should face her problem.
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In your eyes abortion could be 'killing' a lot of babies, but it's also hypothetically saving a lot of lives. [I don't know how old you are so I'm just gonna take a stab at you being in highschool] Say you got raped by...a neighbour...and you were in ovulation, so you got pregnant. Are you saying you would be perfectly okay with delivering this baby? Even if you had to drop out of highschool? Get a job so you can take care of it? Dashing possibly all dreams you've ever had. Possibly losing all friends you've ever had? Being called a whore, because when ppl see you. They're not gonna think, oh poor girl only [insert age here] and already with a baby. They're gonna think, whore. It may be your resposibility to bring up the child, but it's also your responsiblity to ensure your future, and having a baby would probably kill a lot of futures for a lot of pregnant girls. If they can fix they're future by getting an abortion, don't you think it's likely that they get it?
and do you think abortion is the perfect solution about that?
no. it may may get worst. Im 18, btw. abortion is only an option to reserve your pride. what's the problem if you got pregnant? ppl will understand. "your'e raped!" that is it. not "you are a whore"
and besides, it will haunt you for the rest of your life. what if aborting the child got you ill? what if it conplicated your health, and at the time you wanted a baby, you can never have anymore because you got ill from abortion?
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Not religious. Don't believe in souls. I think it's wrong to kill someone someone-else loves. And if the 'mother' of the fetus doesn't love it, then death be to it. Don't go and talk about hobos, becuase I don't think they should be killed either becuase other hobos probably love them. but if I were a hobo I'd probably suicide. o.O =D and don't tell me god loves it, because how certain am I that there is a god? and like DA said earlier, there is a good chance it will turn into something great, there is an equal chance it will turn into something horrible.
religion is to be considered here because wer'e talking about humans here. morality should one of the basis of our life. not just human laws.
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Old 01-13-2006, 02:42 AM   #104
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yes. but the laws of the government are not only laws that we should follow. there's the law of the Church. but of course, you would not consider that.
No, I obviously wouldn't because A) I'm not Catholic and B) when debating on whether or not abortion should be allowed in the USA, we must us the Constitution as a base to help decide if it is legal or not.

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"sentience" my ass. there are stages of development for humans, as our biology and psychology professors told us. the first stage is the pre-natal. and you know exactly what happens during the pre-natal. believe it or not, me, you, all of us here come from two single cells, which are the sperm and the egg cell. so if your'e saying that a fetus or embryo
Great, you've taken high school level classes that explain only brief amounts about what happens when a fetus develops. Ask your teachers exactly when electrical impulses begin in the brain and spinal cord of a developing baby. Once a fetus has those, it can truly be considered an animal that is more complex than a tree.

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well, you are wrong. we are talking about humans here. not damn animals!
A) I'm not wrong. Check for yourself.

B) Humans ARE animals.



Azumi, what LD is saying is that you are lamenting the loss of potential life. You've only said that a million times... And sperm and egg cells ARE potential life. You just seem to think that once conception occurs, only then is it a potential.
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Old 01-13-2006, 03:11 AM   #105
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Humans ARE animals.
well, if your'e talking about human cows, i must have been wrong. human is an animal, yeah right, my mistake about that. but do you consider yourself animal? it is only science that says wer'e animals. it's because of evolution. but i dont believe in evolution, coz how the fuck did charles darwin knew that humans came from apes. was he an ape himself back then? but that's not the point of this thread. your'e only concern about laws of man, the laws of science. i did say a bit about science, but the morality of aborting the baby is my main point.
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Great, you've taken high school level classes that explain only brief amounts about what happens when a fetus develops. Ask your teachers exactly when electrical impulses begin in the brain and spinal cord of a developing baby. Once a fetus has those, it can truly be considered an animal that is more complex than a tree.
so you think without those, the baby is not considered human, right? as far as i know, the aborted child is about 3 months. that's the maximum period where symptoms of pregnancy occurs. how the hell will you abort a child less than a week or so? the baby usually aborted is about 3 months, so it has already the necessary organs. your'e talking about brains? do you think babies after birth could already send electric pulse on his brain? no. their senses are not yet developed after birth. it takes time. humans develop. that's what i'm trying to say.
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