Mal

This has to be some kind of record low, even for HR.

Human Rasengan

Ok whatever guy.. I understand why they feel as to having to argue their stance on what a soul is but what it boils down to was a question of beliefs.. if they come to the conclusion that a soul is something that they do not posses then state so.. if they believe the soul to be a fictitious thing and therefore can't posses something they consider to be fake or fallacious it's no harm in coming out and stating ones belief.

Does this equate them to being a soulless being .. that too can be can be debated but may be an entirely different debate all together. Or do they possess a soul since it's been described as a part of normal brain function then surely as a man of science .. it would be no problem in stating that based on a scientific proof of knowledge of the inner workings of the brain and whether or not if they posses or create all those things that were attributed to having a soul.. What would be the harm in saying they had a soul.. why it'd be no more difficult than stating whether or not you have a pancreas or kidney for possessing pancreatic or nephritic tissue!

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for those of you who don't understand.. I'm coming from an illogical perspective so your logic won't fit my argument .. it'll only give you a headache.. remember ..belief doesn't require a co-signer There Is A Fine Line Between Genius And Insanity , I Have Erased This Line ! If I were you I'd hate me too.. I am the HUMAN RASENGAN!!!

The power of despair is great in you.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zlzx4...&feature=share

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3qkz4WfOto

LOL I'M DYING BACK HERE

Mal

The debate section is for debating. Asking stupid questions is for the Chit Chat section.

Gakure

Not an atheist, but I will give it a go.

Yes I believe I have a soul, which is housed in my physical body. It comprises of feelings, thoughts and will. These compositions manifest themselves in my body that can be seen as 'physical' (and scientifically attributed to the brain functions). My physical body ceases to feel, think and will the moment my soul parts from it(talking about death), but some other bodily functions continue for some time.

I will equate it to a glass filled with a colored liquid. The glass manifests that color and according to the angle of view, we may even think that that color is of the glass to begin with, until the liquid is poured out. The glass remains a glass, but the manifestation of the color ceases.

Hope I made sense. *@ work*

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Jesus Loves You!!! He Always Has. He Always WIll

ACt

Fine, you want a debate, here we go:

Most religions hold the belief that humans are unique in the world as the only beings to have a soul - so much so that god put them in the stewardship position on the earth. Therefore, dogs, bears, worms, oak trees and nematodes, to just select a random group of organisms, are not believed to have souls. I submit that scientific evidence has put forth the theory of evolution, widely accepted, which states that all life has a common ancestor/beginning.

Because of this, I refute the claim that humans are unique. Either everything has a soul or nothing does. To date, there has been no genetic or physical evidence of a unique "aura" in any life form that is widely accepted and since the idea of a soul was created to make humans feel special, there is no such thing as a soul.

Rebuttal? (Oh, and please don't come back with "I feel I have one, so souls exist" because your feelings have no bearing in a debate.)

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It's amazing to me that, unlike in the real world, people on the internet will wear "everyone thinks I'm a moron" as a badge of honour.

kael03

We have clearly stated our beliefs about possessing a soul, several times and with your given definition of a soul. The fact that you can't accept that belief is not our fault, as you were clearly biased to start.

I'll say it like this: Atheists, by definition of a person lacking belief in a supreme being or beings, do not believe in a "soul". Since, by definition, a "soul" is something granted by a supreme being, and atheists do not believe in that supreme being, the "soul" cannot exist since the being that gives it to humans does not exist.

Is that clear enough for you? Or do I need to draw a fucking diagram?

Actually, it doesn't. Since by definition of what an atheist is and what a soul is, souls do not exist, therefore atheists are not soulless. "Soulless" means "lacking a soul", how can one lack something that does not exist? Get the point?

ACt fucking stated that, based on your definition, what you consider a "soul" is merely the various functions of a highly evolved brain. There's nothing spiritual about it. What you define as the soul is the process of hormones being secreted into the brain between different neurons, and collected by the receptors of those neurons.

Because it doesn't exist based on what defines an atheist and what defines a soul. Souls are granted by a supreme being, yes? Atheists do not believe in that being. So why would we state that we possess something created by a being we do not believe in?

Wait, you're comparing a fictitious construct, created by man originally to give the uneducated masses the feeling of superiority over the rest of the animal kingdom and make mankind feel "unique" among other animals, to organs without which, we will die? Do you not see how biased and stupid that is? I can continue living without a soul, as I have for 26 years. I cannot live without a pancreas or both kidneys.

tl;dr: wow, you're stupid.

Why are you answering when the question wasn't directed towards you? We don't need you bashing the bible over our skulls for the 75,000th time.

Those "bodily functions" are attributed to the brain stem, which, if left undamaged, can keep the body going as long as nutrients are given. What you attribute to the "soul" does not reside in the brain stem, but the lobes of the brain itself.

Cool story, bro.

EphemeralStar

I suppose I'll explain why I believe in souls.
Being of Native American decent, I strongly believe that everything, and everyone has a soul/spirit. Be it humans, animals, plants, even a tiny earthworm. And that there is a "Creator" and "Mother nature." Don't ask why, I just grew up that way. And I really wouldn't know what "religion" you'd call that.... I guess it's similar to Shintoism lol.
Now why we have a soul/spirit....well why not? If it gives us the reassurance that we're not just pointless human beings, so yay! I'm all for believing in having a soul. If there's a chance that myself in a non-physical form can live on somehow,somewhere it can really make a person think positively.
Besides, there's just that feeling....that you know, I have a soul. It's not something I've ever doubted.

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manta

We'll only know when we die. So for now just focus on living.

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Miburo

I have a soul, and it's for burning with manly passion.

But yeah, you're stupid, HR. Being an atheist has nothing to do with believing in souls or whatever.



Er, I dunno about that free will part. I'm guessing you just didn't feel the need to be specific, which is cool because the topic is fucking retarded, and are talking about Christian God using god magic to give people free will specifically. But just in case, there could be generic creator of the universe god who just magic'd the universe into existence and took a total hands off approach after that, which would result in man resulting from nature through natural processes...but with the divine intervention part. Or just a god making dudes all naturally through evolution and shit, or whatever. It can't really be a god just making dudes, he'd have to specifically give them free will.

That's also assuming free will otherwise would be impossible, which I guess would be argued based on some sort of science like neurology type stuff which would suggest something sorta like biology plus experience and shit dictate all our choices and we don't really choose, and all those things would be overridden only by god saying we have free will. Somehow... But then the argument would go from a more philosophical discussion to a scientific discussion. And I don't really think it can be scientifically demonstrated that free will does not exist, since I figure I'd have heard about something like that or some shit. If that's the case, then claims without proof = not good logic stuff.

I dunno. I had some dude show me all this shit where some christian supposedly smart dude (William Cane or some shit, I think it was) was making arguments against atheism for some reason and while he wasn't saying this in particular, but was suggesting similar things like without god there can't be morals or some shit. And this made me think of that, so I replied. Figured talking to someone intelligent and respect-worthy would be more enjoyable over calling HR a retard for the billionth time. Eh.

No, atheists by definition just don't believe in any gods. That's it. There isn't anything else to it. There are atheists that believe in chi or ki or whatever, atheists that believe in souls, atheists that believe in ghosts, atheists that believe in reincarnation, religious atheists, etc. You can have a 'soul' without a god creating it.


It works just like how theism works. You can't clump them all together, because they can all believe drastically different shit. There are theists who believe in God w/Jesus as his son, Allah version, Mother fucking ODIN and shit, etc. Atheism works exactly the same way. Atheism =/= Materialism or Reductionism or what-the-fuck-everism. Which is something a lot of anti-atheism dumbfucks seem to forget as well when they try to argue against atheism. You don't want to make the same mistake as those tards, right bro? Atheism = don't believe in gods. Anything else is something else, not atheism.



But yeah, asking stupid questions is for some section that isn't the debate section, HR.

Mal

All I am going to say for now is that I fucking missed you dude. I will respond properly tomorrow when I am sober.

Gakure

Does 'Conscience' suffice? That is a major difference if you ask me. Only humans are known to poses such a thing.


Started with the hating again. Why do u always get personal with debates. Mal clearly stated he is not an atheist and so are some others, I don't see u breathing down on their necks. Just get off my back and go on with the discussion.

yeah.

stem, lobe can continue to work even after death, but not those three functions. That was my point.

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Jesus Loves You!!! He Always Has. He Always WIll

ACt

I assume you are referring to the idea of a little voice to tell you what is right and what is wrong. That doesn't exist either. Go read anything by Dawkins, though probably best to stick to the more scientific books so you don't get offended by the near militant atheism. The Selfish Gene is probably the best example to explain how altruism can be explained by genetics and many social animals have traits that are breed in or out to improve the survival of the individual and the group.

That's all a conscience is - a series of genes that create a physiology of behaviours that supports a social lifestyle. Humans have been social animals since they "came down from the trees" so to speak. Our survival and dominance has relied upon it and driven our evolution.

MIBURO! Glad you are back.

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It's amazing to me that, unlike in the real world, people on the internet will wear "everyone thinks I'm a moron" as a badge of honour.

Mal

I would first like to say that yes, I realize this post is not green. And also that I believe that without free will or divine intervention the universe is completely deterministic, and it is hypothetically possible to predict all events given sufficient data. Of course, this may as well be considered impossible because 1) "sufficient" means every property of every object, molecule and atom in existence, 2) measuring many of those properties changes them, making them impossible to know and 3) storing this data would require some device larger than the universe itself.


I wasn't thinking specifically of the Christian God, but I was thinking of the verse "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." (Genesis 2:7). This can apply to any religious text that makes a similar claim, implying that a deity took direct action in man's creation and that man is somehow different from the animals.

It likely can't be scientifically demonstrated that free will does not exist, but it doesn't have to be. Saying you have free will is a claim of existence, so unless there is supporting evidence then the default position should be that it does not exist.

My line of thought is this: All human thought is dependent on the functions of the brain; these chemical functions are a result of our biology and we have no direct control over them. Instead, the brain, at least when it is functioning properly, is dependent on its own "content," i.e. memories. All of our thoughts are based on our memories, and our memories are created from our past experiences such as events, interactions, or other thoughts based on other memories.

Free will is the idea of "independent choice, voluntary decision." To choose or decide anything requires thought, and all human thought is based on the past. If our thought process is based entirely on the past and the uncontrollable chemical functions of our brain then we cannot choose anything contrary to how our brain interprets our memories in the context of that choice.

Spiritual things are considered to be outside of nature, or supernatural. Being outside of nature, they will not be dependent on past events because the natural cannot affect the supernatural. However, the supernatural can affect the natural, which could include the functions of the human brain. Free will is only possible given the existence of some supernatural entity which alters the function of the brain, whether that entity is a god, a soul, or whatever else.

Gakure

Seemed more to me like 'Instincts', rather than 'Conscience' especially if genetics come in. Conscience has to do more of intellect and moral code, u know, the 'right' from 'wrong' stuff.

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Jesus Loves You!!! He Always Has. He Always WIll

Mal

Evolutionarily, conscience is an instinct.