kashyap3

You cant argue against free speech. And especially free speech of the majority.
and Minorities in many Asian and European countries have been pampered with all sorts of exceptions. Well, its time to face facts. Every region has a majority, and if the Majority sides with something offensive to a minority, in the name of free speech, well then thats just how the democratic process works. If you dont like it, ignore it. The reason that this became such a big hype is because they wanted it to be noticed. If Muslims let small things like this affect them, that only shows weakness and encourages more radical forms of terrorism. Illiterates in Middle-Eastern countries are just using this as an excuse to breed more and more violence, without even realizing what the cartoon actually means.

[well thats my 2 cents]

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DarkAztek

It doesn't matter. The reason that they say that there is a big bullshit hubbub is because there exists cartoons that depict Muhammad. It is only a worse blow that it is saying Islam is violent. It is a very big deal if Jesus is depicted in a sacreligious manner to Christians. But hey! I've yet to see a violent protest over that much. That's the fucking point. Hello! It's screaming at you in the face and you say it doesn't matter because it wasn't done by a MUSLIM? If a Muslim had drawn the same cartoon, the same goddamn outrage would have been happened.

And yet nothing HAPPENED to Robertson because of this. It's free speech. There were no violent protests. There was nobody hurt. You can condemn what people say and say that it was wrong. But guess what!? If Robertson wanted to keep saying it, he CAN. Why? Because it is in the Constitution. Same goes for the Dutch. You can say not to do it and pull the funding of the guy (if the government funds the person), but you cannot stop the person from speaking out.

Doesn't. Matter. The German government ends it with their laws (which are nothing more than stifling free speech, no matter what the speech is.). However, in the US or some other countries, it doesn't matter what people say. There are VERY few exceptions. (For example, yelling FIRE in a crowded place or something is illegal. There are a few other examples.) If you stop people from saying one thing, what is to stop them from saying something else?

I'm sorry, you're not allowed to question me because I work for the government now! I'm a Muslim or whatever other religion you might not want to insult. The limits can be pushed farther and farther unless freedom is granted. Do I really need to start posting links to philosophy pages about why freedom of expression and speech is necessary?

Perhaps nothing. Does it offend you? Tough. It's freedom of speech. The author feels that Islam is a violent religion that is a ticking time bomb. That's his opinion and he expressed it. Deal with it.

Hardly. I might think it has something to do with them exploding themselves in public areas and etc. Perhaps it is them chanting "Death to Israel"? Teaching their kids to hate Israel no matter what? It's a vicious cycle.

And I've been in Israel. I've seen their treatment of Palestinians. It isn't like dirt. In fact, Israel drops food and gives water to them. They heal the injured terrorists that attack them and are wounded. And guess what? When they rejected blood from "Israeli pigs," they spent LOADS OF MONEY importing blood from Morroco and other Muslim countries to help them and they STILL refused it because it came from Israeli money. Don't you DARE give me this bullshit that they are being treated badly. Israel has gone out of its way to end this goddamn feud. (Except for recently with Sharon's idiocy.)

Give me one good reason why we can't. With the exceptions of personal endangerment, I fail to see why I can't just say "Fuck you" to the President or anyone else.

So you're assuming that Germans are likely to listen to radicals and become war hungry and want to commit genocide again and again?

We have people saying that shit in the US and I know plenty of people that are bigots. Yet, for some reason, the government is not making laws recuiring Jews to put stars on their chest. Just because there is a possibility of something bad happening because of something someone says does not mean that we should censor them. President Bush has proven again and again that he fucks up what he intends to say. [sarcasm]I guess we should ban him from speaking to the UN from now on so we don't piss anyone off![/sarcasm]

The Salem witch trials were not about religion, they were a social backlash towards the wealthy. That's why the wealthy were the majority of the people put to trial. Don't try and lecture me about the place I grew up in. I know the history.

Yep. A minority. Hardly more than two dozen priests. And yeah, people can say what they want about black people. If they want to insult them and be racist, then they have the right to be verbally. That's their choice. That's freedom of speech. Muslim people that are upset by the cartoons have all the rights that they want to speak out about it. But violence is different.

How many Muslims are participating in these violent protests? More than a million by my last count. These are not the acts of a few individuals.

Logical fallacy right there. You claim that Christians do that. I point out that Muslims would do the same if it was in their country. "Well they don't, so that's the point" doesn't suffice. Of course they don't. They don't even let women do shit.

And defend themselves? Against what? Israel? Last time I checked, Israel has not just invaded an area for no reason. Israel is not the aggressors. Get that through your skull. The terrorists are.

[/quote]

A) It wasn't three posters. 95% of them had those types of posters... Or did you not actually watch the live coverage of the event? The people that led it said it was peaceful. Peaceful how? "DEATH TO BLASPHEMERS!" "BIN LADEN WILL HAVE HIS WAY!" "FREEDOM CAN GO TO HELL!" "9/11 IS NOTHING COMPARED TO WHAT YOU WILL GET SOON!" Yeah. Peaceful my ass.

B) Your link doesn't go anywhere.



Oh really? Here's what you said:

Funny. Doesn't appear like you said anything like that. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

So if someone says that Islam is a violent religion and depicts Muhammad poorly, he should die? Oh, I'm sorry. We have laws against that. Deal with it.

It is racist. True. It is offensive. True. It is freedom of speech. True. Unfortunately for you, freedom of speech trumps all cards. I can say that [insert any religion here] sucks and is for people who want nothing more than the destruction of society. But guess what? It's my opinion and I said it. Don't like it? TOUGH. GET STOIC. FREEDOM OF SPEECH IS ONE THE FOUNDING PRINCIPLES WHICH ALLOWS DEMOCRACY TO EXIST.

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MrPwnzerz

"The Jews are human beings, but the nations of the world are not human beings but beasts..." -Saba Mecia 114, 6

NOWHERE, and I mean NOWHERE, does it state that Jews are the superior race. I am Jewish, so don't try and catch me on that.(Not Orthodox, but Conservative.) And the quote can be interpreted in multiple ways. I for one, agree with your Point of View, it is a biased statement implying that other than Jews, the nations of the Earth are barbaric and uncivilized. But, who is to say that's not true? Because in my lifetime, I haven't seen much to dispprove that statement. Now, we've seen good actions, but unfortunately, more bad than good.(Also, I am including the Israeli community in the "barbaric/animalic" point.

Additionally, to counter your reference about respecting Americans....That is one person, amongst the other SINGLE persons who've committed crimes like this...But I don't see hundreds...or maybe thousands of these people marching and protesting cartoons from other countries...than THREATENING to murder these people, and even other countries of which have nothing to do with the matter.

Ore-sama

As for freedom of speech, we all know it's hypocrite. Once one gets too frank, they get sued, banned, hated, judged, jailed. In Germany you can say "Petri heil" to wish murderers good luck at their Sunday hunts, but "Sieg heil" means police on your back.
Whenever you stand outnumbered with your own opinion, "freedom of speech" no longer applies for you. Officially yes, but people will still point at you. Freedom of speech is a doormat. People expect you to step on it with clean shoes, they only offer one because it's common to have one. They'll still dislike you for stepping on it with muddy shoes. Just like you offer someone something out of politeness, expecting to be declined out of politeness and call the person who did not decline, impolite.


Me? Not really, actually, now that you mention it. Pretending to mind is something I need to practice though, or else ppl may think I'm cold.
But at one point I do care: if they wreck my mother's working place completely, her boss may get killed and no longer be able to pay her which will have an effect on my budget as well.

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DarkAztek

The issue in this thread is whether or not anything can overwrite free speech. It doesn't what religion.

Also, see the Pakistan and India conflicts and their fights. You'll be suprised at just what Hindus do.

Says who? The head rabbis of Judaism condemn homosexuality and I know a number of gay Jews. The Pope condemn condoms, yet I know a CRAP LOAD of Catholics that will wear them.

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kakashi1300

i think i understand what the muslims are feeling about that issue. see, even if we have those funny cartoons of Jesus i can't feel any anger, because they were just made by desperate christians who want to get free from christian grips. it would make me furious when muslims did that to Jesus. now that is calling a holy war. personally i feel pity for those who did that to Jesus. they do not know what they are doing so God have mercy on them lol that's not the point. the point is that yeah, the muslims overreacted. resorting to violoence is not a good idea. i think what they want is more than just apology, it's the assurance that no one will ever do that again.

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kashyap3

Haha
Violence in the subcontinent is always fuelled by leaders of both religions working together to get votes. Thats right. They(both leaders) incite the hatred in the people. The people not knowing any better blindly listen to their religious party leader, and same with the other religion. Then the leaders would appeal for their votes using hatred.

This is oxymoronic since Hinduism as a whole never believes in violence or conversion. Do not blame rare past incidents such as these on the religions, but the leaders of the political/religious parties.

These problems are caused by illiteracy and poverty, which I am glad to see is being eliminated by the decreasingly corrupt Indian government.

However Hindu Suicide bombers do not exist, due to the fundemental principles of the religion itself. And If you do find one, then I'll be damned.

The issue between India and Pakistan, it will probably be never ending. If one shows development of nuclear facilities for civilian research, the other will build up unnecessary facilities, and sell the blueprints to other countries.

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Heiwa

Okay I hope I don't offend anyone here and if I do, I apologise. This is just my view...

Personally, I think the protesting is pathetic. There's always something being joked about. You see it on films, on TV, in magazines. whatever it is, homosexual jokes, religious, everything there is! If we protested against everythnig things would get REALLY out of hand. I'm not saying that publishing the cartoons was right, it was out of order, but it's hardly something to cause such fuss over.

I myself, can be the victim of jokes at the best of times, because of the way I dress, my sexual orientation, my religion, and so on. If I was to react the way they have, there wouldn't be very many people around here. Sometimes, you have to just take it on the chin. There is a line, and it's 5 miles behind them. I think if this had been a recurring problem, only THEN should there have been this much fuss.

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well i think the dainish should stop this noncens and the muslims shouldent attack nether imagin if the prophet muhamed (pbah) was heir now he wouldent care about it all he would do is tell them to stop not attack but i think bothe sides r wrong hell im muslim and i dont agree with what their doing like israil against palastine im against israil us against iraq im against america and im from america so u see i aint racist or annythin im just sayin the daynish and muslims r wrong

narutoeye

As far as I know (maybe I’m wrong) That Catholics are Christians. The reason I mentioned Islam and Christianity is that Christians represents the highest population of the world and Muslims are the second highest religion, but if any other religion want to participate I don’t have any problem with that.

What do you mean by they are all right or they are all wrong and there’s either a God or there isn’t……that’s would mean all the people of the world who believe in God are stupid and wrong and it’s also might mean the few people who don’t believe in God are right and how do you think that all the religions of the earth are right or wrong.

I didn’t say that ALL Danes are Christians, because they are Christians, Muslims, Jewish and others, but the majorities are Christians. Sorry I didn’t say that ALL Christians decided to attack Islam.




What you mean by it doesn’t matter who makes them, yes it does…. If Muslims makes fun of Christians and Jesus and describe them as terrorists at their daily media, I’m sure there will be a huge demonstrations and violence against Islam. As someone mentioned here these Jesus cartoons are done by Christians themselves to get red of Christianity. Add this to your own information that Islam is the only religion on the earth that believe in miracle birth of Jesus and respect both of Jesus and his mother. And both of them are mentioned respectfully in Quran several times.


I didn’t say that someone here mentioned that all Muslims are terrorists, but there are many people said that.


Ok what about science, do you believe in science ….. there are a lot of things was written be Quran more than 1400 years ago, but only the new science proved it right. This proves that the Quran is from God.
Note: in Qur’an it’s mentioned that the bible is also from the God.

http://discover.islamway.com/articles.php?article_id=20


I already proved the God existence in other thread, read all my posts in this thread.
http://www.narutolounge.com/forums/s...t=10648&page=4

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DarkAztek

Does that make a violent reaction okay? Since when does reacting to violence with MORE violence solve anything?

Ah ha ha ha!

Yeah, there has never been any Muslim protests against Christianity, eh? Ever been to Iran? Ever seen the children marching in the street yelling for the death of Christians and the death of Jews? I've seen it. I remember after the 9/11 attacks, there were some Muslims that held great banners that said how all western society deserved it. I'm still waiting for the mass protests of Christians to riot in the streets over that.

Again though, if you look at that one link I posted a bit back of all the depictions of Muhammad, you'll find that many of them were done by Muslims. There also have been numerous depictions of Muhammad in satirical forms before these Danish cartoons by both Christians and Jews and Muslims alike. ...No protests. But suddenly there is for one of the more MILD cartoons? Apparently it only matters NOW, but not before. I think we can conclude that the religion of the cartoonists doesn't matter based upon that fact alone.

And Islam believes in the miracle birth. So what? They don't believe in the Trinity, that Jesus was the son of God, nor the ressurection of Jesus. They're taught to respect the "people of the Book," but I've yet to see any of that in these protests. ...Just FYI.

I've yet to meet one other than Bill O'Reilly.

Strawman. And there are things in the Bible that have been proven to be possible and etc. For example, the burning bush is actually a native plant to the region around Israel that spontaneously bursts into flame to spread its seed. There is a large number of people proving parts of the Bible to be possible and for things mentioned in it to work. What the fuck does this have to do with people protesting cartoons?

Now you're just pissing me off. There is no way to prove the existance of God. Just because it cannot be understood does not make it "God did it." Your logic is inherently flawed. However, this is extremely off topic. If you'd like to carry over PM how God cannot be proven to exist or not to exist, then I'd be glad to educate you.

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narutoeye

Ah ha ha ha!

I didn’t say that there has never been any Muslim protests against Christianity. I said Islam is the only religion on the earth that believe in miracle birth of Jesus and respect both of Jesus and his mother. And both of them are mentioned respectfully in Quran several times and you can ask any Muslim who has some knowledge about Quran about that.
You are talking about the 9/11 attacks, what about millions and millions of Muslims who died during Europeans (Britain and France) invasions against Islamic countries and non Islamic countries just to extent their lands and to take others money. And what about Iraqi and Muslims prisoners. And what about Palatines families and children violence I’ve seen it, I don’t think it’s written in Bible to invade weak countries and to kill and slave the people there and take their money (natural and human resources). And yet you want some Muslims to not hold great banners that said how all western society deserved it.


First of all, some of the pictures are normal drawings (no fun) and there is no prove that shows some of them were done by Muslims and it’s forbidden for any Muslims to depict of any prophet not even mild cartoons, it’s applies to the past and to the present and it will continue in future..



We believe in the in the miracle birth, in Bible, in the resurrection of Jesus, but we don’t believe that Jesus is the son of God; actually we believe that Jesus is the prophet of God, just like Muhammad is the prophet of God. At least we have some common believes. We also believe that the “people of the book” are Jews, Christians and Muslims, but these cartoons don’t show any respect for Muslims.


What do you mean by straw man ….. it’s written in Quran that the Bible is from God, so there is no wonder there are things in the Bible that have been proven to be possible, just read link again there are a large things mentioned in Quran that’s already proven by the new science. And I mentioned this, because you said that don’t believe only in experts (scientists) logical evidences. There many things that are off topic here and yet discused here.


So how can you explain it just made by itself?. And I’m ready to carry over PM, sometimes I might be busy, I will reply when ever I’m free.

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DarkAztek

And that has to do with this debate... How? Christianity preaches turning the other cheek, yet the President of the US, who claims to be a devout Christian, said that there needs to vengance against the terrorists that attacked us. The Koran also teaches to be relatively peaceful (under most circumstances), yet I have not seen that in many of its followers. People are killed all of the time due to brutality. Shit like that is wrong. That's my point. Reacting the way they did due to someone making a joke about their religion and holy leader is fucking stupid. Stop trying to get off topic.

The issue at stake is freedom of speech, not whatever a religion believes in.

And guess what!? ANY DEPICTIONS OF MOHAMMAD IS CONSIDERED TO BE BLASPHEMY. Where were the protests and mass hysteria? And yeah, there is proof to show that they were done by Muslims. Read the fucking passages that go with the pictures and you'd see that. Don't fall to the McDonald's Syndrom that has taken over this forum.

Not really a part of the discussion... It doesn't matter who was made fun of, if they react violently, it is wrong and fucking stupid. (But hell, I'll bite. Quran, 4:157. You do not believe in the cruicifiction let alone the resurrection.)

See the link in my signature about logical fallacies to look up the straw man.

I'm not getting into a battle of "this religion has been proven right" debate with you. That's completely off topic. It doesn't matter if shit in the past has been proven, that does not prove anything for the DEBATE AT HAND.

PM me if you still are confused.

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narutoeye

First of all, there are many off topics things discussed here in this thread and you also got off topic many times. Quran doesn’t teach to be peaceful when our holy places are taken or when Muslims are killed and slaved. Moreover, most of Muslims be peaceful even after Danish cartoons, Danish claimed that it’s free opinion, so MOST of Muslims stopped buying Danish products claiming it’s our free choose to buy their product or not. There are violence by few Muslims which is expected not only from Muslims, but Christian also If Muslims makes fun of Christians and Jesus and describe them as terrorists at their daily media. I’m also against the 9/11 attacks which done by as you said due to brutality Shit like that is wrong, Most Muslims criticized that also, violence can not be solved by violence killing people from both side is not the solution.


I don’t understand what you mean by PASSAGES.

You are right; actually I didn’t understand the meaning of resurrection (I’m Arabic native speaker my English is just good…..,so it’s big advantage for you). Yes Muslims don’t believe in the resurrection of Jesus, because we believe he is still not died.


It’s up to you to believe it or not.





I’m not confused and regarding the PM you should start it, because you suggested it.

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DarkAztek

No, there ain't. I'm the one who started it, I should know. I don't give a rat's ass about whether or not Islam on a whole is a violent religion. I don't know enough to say that. If I "got off topic" it was merely to debate an assinine point by another poster who claimed something completely erroneous.

Did the cartoon make any Muslims slaves? Did it kill anyone? (Well yeah, actually it did. The protestors killed a number of people.) So what's the reason that you've got to say that the violent reactions are okay?

And yeah, they have every right in the world to say what they want. If people don't want to buy Danish products because of it, then all the power to them.

And news flash: Every day Israel is depicted as a terrorist country and I've yet to see any Israeli suicide bombers or huge protests against Palestinian countries. The USA is depicted is a terrorist country by them and I haven't seen any terrorist actions. Jesus is frequently made fun of and depicted in a poor light. Where are all of the riots?

I know that there exists a vast majority of Muslims who are sane, rational people. They don't want to kill people nor think that the Danish people should die for poking fun at Mohammad. They have every right to be offended and etc. What I am pointing out is the few MILLION who DO protest and offer violence as a good reaction to being made fun of.

The text that goes WITH the pictures and explains them.

It has nothing to do with this debate. At all.

I have no desire to talk to you and figured that you would PM me about how I could possibly believe that there is no proof of a superior existance. PM me if you really want to waste my time and have me explain it to you. But really, I'm not going to go out of my way.

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