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Old 12-07-2011, 04:30 PM   #31
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Re: ET zombie state

And I had a long-ass post that somehow got eaten up in the process of posting. Crap.

It was basically reasoning with almightywood, but I was repeating myself so much that now I'm glad it was eaten up, because people talk to him and he just doesn't give himself the chance of owning up.

The only thing I really want to know is how did Albert Einstein go to the loony bin for his theory of relativity if the same theory is what made him President of the German Physics Society from 1916 to 1918, appointed him as a member of the Prussian Academy of Sciences, made him win the Nobel Prize of Physics of 1921 (although not for the entirety of it) and the Copley Medal of the Royal Society in 1925, among many other awards?!
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Old 12-07-2011, 10:46 PM   #32
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Re: ET zombie state

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Originally Posted by kael03 View Post
Now you're pulling a KYF and only acknowledging 1 part of the page in question instead of the entire thing. Here's the page so you don't get confused.

Kabuto: "Your Impure World Resurrection is a special version" (meaning he tinkered with it "You've been completed beyond what you were in your prime."

Notice how he said "completed beyond your prime", meaning he altered Madara's ET body to be stronger (which means his physical prime with his at death skills). Madara's body was never incomplete, Kabuto just made him younger.

Madara: "You...you know about my prime?"
Kabuto: "No. So please, show it to me...the legendary power of the Uchiha."

Kabuto flat out stated he has no clue what Madara's prime was. Which begs the question as to how Kabuto could alter him to be beyond the prime which is unknown.

See where your argument falls? Kabuto never stated he completed Madara, but he completed him beyond his prime. Which we know means that he adjusted Madara's body to be at his physical prime while maintaining his at death abilities (EMS, Mokuton, Rinnegan, etc).
BS, this is merely supposition on your part, the same as it was when Numinous said it. I personally believe that the only thing that was altered on Madara was exactly what I claimed earlier - the merging of the dnas more effectively, and by relinking what I personally brought up you neither prove your stance, nor disprove mine.
I believe that Madara's prime was when he awakened the Rinnegan.
Hashirama's DNA is the reason that he looks as young as he does, not Kabuto's tinkering.
Danzo and Sarutobi were around the same age, yet Sarutobi looked way older than Danzo, who happened to have the first's DNA implanted in him since the uchiha incident if not longer.

Just because you interpret this to mean that doesn't make it so.
When you claim your interpretation is the only feasible one, it makes you egotistical, but doesn't make your statement true. Your scenario is no more likely than the one that I have proposed.
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And I had a long-ass post that somehow got eaten up in the process of posting. Crap.

It was basically reasoning with almightywood, but I was repeating myself so much that now I'm glad it was eaten up, because people talk to him and he just doesn't give himself the chance of owning up.

The only thing I really want to know is how did Albert Einstein go to the loony bin for his theory of relativity if the same theory is what made him President of the German Physics Society from 1916 to 1918, appointed him as a member of the Prussian Academy of Sciences, made him win the Nobel Prize of Physics of 1921 (although not for the entirety of it) and the Copley Medal of the Royal Society in 1925, among many other awards?!
Well I'm glad you didn't feed the same wrong statements to me again. I'm not even going to respond to the argument about "the argument" from this point on either, so I'd say we're both content with this.

You know I just looked for references on Albert Einstein being in the loony bin, and I couldn't find any, so I could just be spreading a rumor. Well I've been told it happened by more than a few people and if it is a rumor it probably started with the movie "young einstein" starring Yahoo Serious because he is in one in that movie.

Last edited by almightywood; 12-07-2011 at 11:26 PM.
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Old 12-08-2011, 02:19 AM   #33
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Re: ET zombie state

Quote:
Originally Posted by almightywood View Post
BS, this is merely supposition on your part, the same as it was when Numinous said it.
Bullshit it's supposition on my and Numinous' part. Kabuto flat out stated "completed beyond your prime", which means Madara was already "complete" but Kabuto tinkered with him to make him even stronger. Kabuto even pointed out that he didn't know what Madara's prime was.

Quote:
I personally believe that the only thing that was altered on Madara was exactly what I claimed earlier - the merging of the dnas more effectively,
Except Madara had already merged Hashirama's DNA with his own perfectly. The Rinnegan proves that. The Rinnegan is the Sage's power, which is derived from combining the Uchiha and Senju/Uzumaki bloodlines to mix the Elder and Younger sons' powers granted by the Sage. Not to mention Madara told Kabuto "You didn't create this power" (bottom left panel) when Kabuto was claiming he gave Madara the Rinnegan.

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by relinking what I personally brought up you neither prove your stance, nor disprove mine.
What was your point again? You've changed your stance so many times I forgot.

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I believe that Madara's prime was when he awakened the Rinnegan.
Madara says otherwise. Top right panel "I awakened these eyes shortly before my death".

Quote:
Hashirama's DNA is the reason that he looks as young as he does, not Kabuto's tinkering.
Danzo and Sarutobi were around the same age, yet Sarutobi looked way older than Danzo, who happened to have the first's DNA implanted in him since the uchiha incident if not longer.
Danzo didn't have Shisui's arm when he was introduced back in the beginning of Part 2 (notice the cloak pressing to his right side instead of a telltale bulge of an arm), before Naruto and co fought Orochimaru on the bridge. So Orochimaru didn't combine Hashirama's DNA into Danzo yet (it was put in Shisui's arm).

For Hiruzen's appearance, he looked older than he was back during Minato's reign (he was 56 when Naruto was born). The stress of leading an entire village does that to you.

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Just because you interpret this to mean that doesn't make it so.
When you claim your interpretation is the only feasible one, it makes you egotistical, but doesn't make your statement true. Your scenario is no more likely than the one that I have proposed.
Actually, my "scenario" is true because KISHI SAID SO when he had Kabuto state "I completed you beyond your prime". Madara appears in his physical prime, which contradicts the idea that they are brought back as they were when they died, and is at the prime of his abilities (Rinnegan and EMS). Kabuto saying "I completed you beyond your prime" means "I returned you with the Rinnegan, as I suspected, and made your body younger so you can fight at your strongest".

Quote:
You know I just looked for references on Albert Einstein being in the loony bin, and I couldn't find any, so I could just be spreading a rumor. Well I've been told it happened by more than a few people and if it is a rumor it probably started with the movie "young einstein" starring Yahoo Serious because he is in one in that movie.
Einstein was never placed in a mental institution. His likeness (the wild hair and odd facial expressions) has been widely used for the "mad scientist" archetype. But he was never institutionalized.
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Old 12-08-2011, 03:38 AM   #34
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Re: ET zombie state

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Originally Posted by kael03 View Post
Bullshit it's supposition on my and Numinous' part. Kabuto flat out stated "completed beyond your prime", which means Madara was already "complete" but Kabuto tinkered with him to make him even stronger. Kabuto even pointed out that he didn't know what Madara's prime was.
Once something is complete, it's complete. You can't be more complete than complete. So if something has been completed beyond what it was, then it was never complete to begin with.

When Madara says "you know about my prime?", and Kabuto says "no I don't" this implies that Madara's prime happened after he disappeared from history, or it would have been documented, Madara wouldn't have had a reason to question someone's knowledge of it, and Kabuto would have responded yes if he had anyway. In other words Madara's prime occured when he awakened the Rinnegan, which was shortly before his death, and so Madara needed no restoration to his body.



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Originally Posted by kael03 View Post
Except Madara had already merged Hashirama's DNA with his own perfectly. The Rinnegan proves that. The Rinnegan is the Sage's power, which is derived from combining the Uchiha and Senju/Uzumaki bloodlines to mix the Elder and Younger sons' powers granted by the Sage. Not to mention Madara told Kabuto "You didn't create this power" (bottom left panel) when Kabuto was claiming he gave Madara the Rinnegan.
This is another assumption. Just because he could awaken the rinnegan doesn't mean that his and Hashi's DNA were blended perfectly. Other than ET the only thing we have seen Kabuto do lately is run around and mess with examples of the first's DNA. The ONLY enhanced ET zombie is one who happens to have, surprise surprise, the first's DNA. And yet you act as though there is no logical basis to assume that this is how Madara was enhanced.



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What was your point again? You've changed your stance so many times I forgot.
Haha. Very funny. I have never changed my stance on anything in this thread except about negating a negative.

The point is that You can't use Madara's ET as the only relevant example of ET, it needs to be treated as something all it's own.



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Originally Posted by kael03 View Post
Danzo didn't have Shisui's arm when he was introduced back in the beginning of Part 2 (notice the cloak pressing to his right side instead of a telltale bulge of an arm), before Naruto and co fought Orochimaru on the bridge. So Orochimaru didn't combine Hashirama's DNA into Danzo yet (it was put in Shisui's arm).
It was stated it was through Orochimaru's research that it occurred, it was never proven that Oro actually did the surgery.
Shisui's arm sounds like a stretch to me - why use an arm from a very old dead body to house cells from an even older dead body. I believe it was a cultivated arm since that can quite obviously be done with the first's cells.
Him not having an arm showing is no proof of anything. When Danzo died his arm had grown off of him because he lost control of Hashi's cells. He had to have done some practice with Izanagi if he was playing with how to extend the effect. Since none of the sharingan were used up on the arm, this leads me to believe simply that he had made more than one of these arms, and had more sharingans than just the ones present in his arm.


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Originally Posted by kael03 View Post
Actually, my "scenario" is true because KISHI SAID SO when he had Kabuto state "I completed you beyond your prime". Madara appears in his physical prime, which contradicts the idea that they are brought back as they were when they died, and is at the prime of his abilities (Rinnegan and EMS). Kabuto saying "I completed you beyond your prime" means "I returned you with the Rinnegan, as I suspected, and made your body younger so you can fight at your strongest".
I think you need to understand what the word interpretation means. When you type down anything other than exactly what he said, that's an interpretation.

Well in response to your interpretation, here's my interpretation: that means that he caused Hashirama's DNA to merge with the Uchiha DNA better and thus he had the Rinnegan. I don't believe that Madara could use Mokuton before being tinkered with, hence why he said "I wanna try something" before he used it. http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v59/c561/12.html
This lends support to the tinkering being just with the DNA.

Last edited by almightywood; 12-08-2011 at 05:28 AM.
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Old 12-08-2011, 09:26 AM   #35
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Re: ET zombie state

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Originally Posted by almightywood View Post
Well I'm glad you didn't feed the same wrong statements to me again. I'm not even going to respond to the argument about "the argument" from this point on either, so I'd say we're both content with this.
Well, I had a long post (13k+ characters) where I exposed how ridiculously inaccurate your analogies were, how you don't know the meaning of "truthful" and "assertion", how you are using the term "argument" colloquially while everybody else in this forum uses it academically, how you want to create your own version of logic so you can always be right instead of opening your mind and listen to the real universal logic and I even fetched the Japanese raw of chapter 560 and an alternative (and more accurate) translation where your nitpick about "complete" is completely thrown into the trash bin.

But why? You don't seem to budge from your fallacious stance, heck even horses with visors have a wider vision than you at this point, which is ironic considering your avatar in the fandom site is from Case Closed and you don't seem to pick the clues. It's even more ironic after this:

Quote:
You know I just looked for references on Albert Einstein being in the loony bin, and I couldn't find any, so I could just be spreading a rumor. Well I've been told it happened by more than a few people and if it is a rumor it probably started with the movie "young einstein" starring Yahoo Serious because he is in one in that movie.
Anyone would give you a pat in the back if Young Einstein retold the life of Albert Einstein and got things wrong (like Don Blooth's Anastasia that made Rasputin actively seeking the destruction of the Romanov when the reality is much different), but that's not the case. Young Einstein is a family comedy that happens to have the protagonist named after Albert Einstein.

For someone who is so determined to be right all the time you sure use a lot of easily refutable misinformation.
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Old 12-08-2011, 10:29 AM   #36
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Re: ET zombie state

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Originally Posted by Numinous View Post
Well, I had a long post (13k+ characters) where I exposed how ridiculously inaccurate your analogies were, how you don't know the meaning of "truthful" and "assertion", how you are using the term "argument" colloquially while everybody else in this forum uses it academically, how you want to create your own version of logic so you can always be right instead of opening your mind and listen to the real universal logic and I even fetched the Japanese raw of chapter 560 and an alternative (and more accurate) translation where your nitpick about "complete" is completely thrown into the trash bin.

But why? You don't seem to budge from your fallacious stance, heck even horses with visors have a wider vision than you at this point, which is ironic considering your avatar in the fandom site is from Case Closed and you don't seem to pick the clues. It's even more ironic after this:
Alright since you are determined to continue a discussion that I have withdrawn myself from.
If someone was to come on here and claim that Naruto was actually the spawn of Hitler and Jesus, and I was to say, you have no proof of that.
I would be using a "fallacious" argument according to your meanings.
Not being able to tell somebody that they are full of shit is fucking asinine, I will never adopt your definitions unless you do something about this.



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Originally Posted by Numinous View Post
Anyone would give you a pat in the back if Young Einstein retold the life of Albert Einstein and got things wrong (like Don Blooth's Anastasia that made Rasputin actively seeking the destruction of the Romanov when the reality is much different), but that's not the case. Young Einstein is a family comedy that happens to have the protagonist named after Albert Einstein.

For someone who is so determined to be right all the time you sure use a lot of easily refutable misinformation.
Funny how you use an example where I admit that I might have made a mistake and explain where I went wrong as proof of me being determined to be right. ... And you claim that I'm the one who can't pick up on the clues. Not allowing myself to be distracted from the one and only truth? Pretty fitting image imo.

Last edited by almightywood; 12-08-2011 at 10:37 AM.
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Old 12-08-2011, 01:57 PM   #37
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Re: ET zombie state

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Originally Posted by almightywood View Post
Alright since you are determined to continue a discussion that I have withdrawn myself from.
If someone was to come on here and claim that Naruto was actually the spawn of Hitler and Jesus, and I was to say, you have no proof of that.
I would be using a "fallacious" argument according to your meanings.
And yet again you use a ridiculously inaccurate analogy to try to evade proper logic. In that analogy, you'd be negating a positive claim with knowledge (since you'd have the evidence, in this case physical, to prove your negation). What you really did was negating a negative claim with ignorance (since there's no evidence, physical or logical, to prove your negation).

Will you stop producing these shenanigans and come down to Earth?

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Not being able to tell somebody that they are full of shit is fucking asinine, I will never adopt your definitions unless you do something about this.
These are not my definitions, they belong to logic, which is universal. You don't like them, too bad, that means you don't want to be a proper debater.

Also, it is asinine to tell somebody they're full of shit when you're the one BS'ing while people are pointing out what's universally acceptable, both as evidence and as conduct in a discussion.

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Funny how you use an example where I admit that I might have made a mistake and explain where I went wrong as proof of me being determined to be right. ... And you claim that I'm the one who can't pick up on the clues.
Because you're still shifting the blame off of you and towards something else. This time was "more than a few people" (which is kind of hypocritical since you pulled Godwin's Law to disprove me on strength in numbers), but you could easily check the facts before spouting misinformation.

When you present a statement, even if it's from someone else, it becomes your responsibility, since you can determine its veracity and/or your opinion upon it. If the statement is promptly dismissed, you have only yourself to blame, not the refuter, not the source, you.

So, if you weren't clinging to not be wrong at any occasion, you wouldn't do these intellectually dishonest maneuvers.

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Not allowing myself to be distracted from the one and only truth? Pretty fitting image imo.
I hope you're being sarcastic here, because you have not one but two instances of blatant misinformation from your part.
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Old 12-08-2011, 02:23 PM   #38
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Re: ET zombie state

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Originally Posted by almightywood View Post
Alright since you are determined to continue a discussion that I have withdrawn myself from.
If someone was to come on here and claim that Naruto was actually the spawn of Hitler and Jesus, and I was to say, you have no proof of that.
I would be using a "fallacious" argument according to your meanings.
Actually, you would be calling for burden of proof. You are not proving or disproving anything, but are calling for the proof of the claim in question. Now, if you had stated that Naruto is the spawn of Hitler and Jesus (lolwut?), and only offered the argument "You can't prove otherwise so my argument is correct" THEN you would be using a fallacious argument. Though, again, the analogy is pretty retarded.

Quote:
Not being able to tell somebody that they are full of shit is fucking asinine, I will never adopt your definitions unless you do something about this.
Except that's not our definition. Arguing from ignorance (what this whole debate started with) is when a person claims something is true because the contrary isn't proven. In this case "ET being tinkered with is a non-issue because none of the others have been shown to be altered" is arguing from ignorance. Same with the Susano'o argument. Your stance was "All Susano'o must have the Imperial Regalia because it hasn't been stated that all Susano'o do not." Then you pulled a KYF and completely ignored all evidence to the contrary (I posted a link showing Sasuke's Susano'o with no gourd for the Sword of Totsuka, Num's lists of what each Susano'o has in each arm).


Quote:
Funny how you use an example where I admit that I might have made a mistake and explain where I went wrong as proof of me being determined to be right. ... And you claim that I'm the one who can't pick up on the clues.
You used a piece of fictional comedy to claim a great physicist was also institutionalized for a ground breaking theory that is still in use today. Doesn't exactly help with your credibility.

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Not allowing myself to be distracted from the one and only truth? Pretty fitting image imo.
"One and only truth"? What would that be? You've blatantly ignored manga chapters that disregard your stance. I pointed out that Kabuto didn't say he made Madara "complete", as you've been arguing, but improved on his body to make him young while maintaining his abilities at their peak (which is what "prime" means in this setting, the peak of some state). I pointed out different pages and panels that completely debunk your ideas.


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Originally Posted by almightywood View Post
Once something is complete, it's complete. You can't be more complete than complete. So if something has been completed beyond what it was, then it was never complete to begin with.
Actually, you can improve upon something that was completed. The car, for instance, was completed with the Benz Patent Motorwagon design, but was improved upon over the past century.

Quote:
It was stated it was through Orochimaru's research that it occurred, it was never proven that Oro actually did the surgery.
It was either Orochimaru or Kabuto that did the surgery, but Orochimaru was involved with Danzo getting Hashirama's DNA.

Quote:
Shisui's arm sounds like a stretch to me - why use an arm from a very old dead body to house cells from an even older dead body. I believe it was a cultivated arm since that can quite obviously be done with the first's cells.
Except it was proven during the Kage Summit that it was Shisui's arm. Notice how Ao comments on the color of the chakra coming from Danzo's arm and eye being Shisui's color?

Quote:
Him not having an arm showing is no proof of anything. When Danzo died his arm had grown off of him because he lost control of Hashi's cells.
Actually, Danzo forcibly ripped his arm off to keep Hashirama's cells from consuming him when he lost control. It didn't "grow off".

Quote:
He had to have done some practice with Izanagi if he was playing with how to extend the effect.
Tobi begs to differ. It was due to Orochimaru's experiments that Izanagi was extended from "a brief instant" to a full minute.

Quote:
Since none of the sharingan were used up on the arm, this leads me to believe simply that he had made more than one of these arms, and had more sharingans than just the ones present in his arm.
Except he didn't have more than one of the arms with more eyes. He used Shisui's arm to give himself the Uchiha DNA required to cut the chakra drain a non-Uchiha would have when using the Sharingan. Hashirama's DNA was used in combination with Shisui's arm to form Izanagi.
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Old 12-08-2011, 03:18 PM   #39
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Re: ET zombie state

I can't believe you guys spent so much time to those kinda guys who you think say stupid shit. Doesn't that get annoying ? or is there any satisfaction you're getting ?

Edit: not meant as bashing, i'm just wondering.

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Old 12-08-2011, 04:15 PM   #40
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Re: ET zombie state

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Originally Posted by uzumakinagato View Post
I can't believe you guys spent so much time to those kinda guys who you think say stupid shit. Doesn't that get annoying ? or is there any satisfaction you're getting ?

Edit: not meant as bashing, i'm just wondering.
I shall quote Dudley Field Malone on this one:
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I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me.
I personally believe that discussions always improve people, be it me or the person I'm debating with. Actually I learned many things while debating KYF, HR and others that otherwise I'd probably not know, and I believe the same should happen to the person I'm debating with.
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Old 12-08-2011, 04:21 PM   #41
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Re: ET zombie state

Debate is good if it is with people who have some sense, i'm not talking about that.
I'm talking about discussing with people who you believe only say dumb and retarded stuff, you basically can't take the person serious, there's a line you'll draw i assume in that matter.
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Old 12-08-2011, 04:32 PM   #42
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Re: ET zombie state

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Debate is good if it is with people who have some sense, i'm not talking about that.
I'm talking about discussing with people who you believe only say dumb and retarded stuff, you basically can't take the person serious, there's a line you'll draw i assume in that matter.
When they're trolling or making baseless judgments upon me that are plain outrageous, that's the line. Although I admit it's harder to place the line on the Internet for obvious reasons, so sometimes it slides a bit.
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Old 12-08-2011, 04:46 PM   #43
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Re: ET zombie state

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Originally Posted by Numinous View Post
Although I admit it's harder to place the line on the Internet for obvious reasons, so sometimes it slides a bit.
Ty for answer and good luck with your series, you should find someone btw who could draw it. I also have a series in my head, almost have it sort out, sadly enough i can't draw
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Old 12-08-2011, 05:42 PM   #44
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Re: ET zombie state

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Originally Posted by Numinous View Post
And yet again you use a ridiculously inaccurate analogy to try to evade proper logic. In that analogy, you'd be negating a positive claim with knowledge (since you'd have the evidence, in this case physical, to prove your negation). What you really did was negating a negative claim with ignorance (since there's no evidence, physical or logical, to prove your negation).

Will you stop producing these shenanigans and come down to Earth?
I could argue that seeing an empty susano'o hand anywhere in the manga would be physical evidence OF ignorance, but it makes no difference to the point I am trying to convey, so just replace Naruto with the 3rd hokage, and then use the analogy.



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Originally Posted by Numinous View Post
These are not my definitions, they belong to logic, which is universal. You don't like them, too bad, that means you don't want to be a proper debater.

Also, it is asinine to tell somebody they're full of shit when you're the one BS'ing while people are pointing out what's universally acceptable, both as evidence and as conduct in a discussion.
If someone wants to tell me I'm full of shit when I make a baseless, outrageous claim, that is their right, I, Unlike you, will not tell them that they are "Fallacious" for doing so.
You say they aren't your definitions, yet the one you have written in the sticky, is not the one you are applying. This and the fact that you wrote the sticky make your claim that they aren't "your definitions" untrue.



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Originally Posted by Numinous View Post
Because you're still shifting the blame off of you and towards something else. This time was "more than a few people" (which is kind of hypocritical since you pulled Godwin's Law to disprove me on strength in numbers), but you could easily check the facts before spouting misinformation.

When you present a statement, even if it's from someone else, it becomes your responsibility, since you can determine its veracity and/or your opinion upon it. If the statement is promptly dismissed, you have only yourself to blame, not the refuter, not the source, you.

So, if you weren't clinging to not be wrong at any occasion, you wouldn't do these intellectually dishonest maneuvers.
Here you go again changing the meaning of my words to suit you, something I have yet to do to you, and I am still waiting for the respect to run the other way.

It is impossible to prove somebody wrong without first accepting what they are saying. Until you admit that you were wrong in claiming I was claiming the susano'o/regalia theory was true, and that I was using an argument from ignorance as proof that it was so, you will never get any admission of anything from me, because you are trying to obtain it by lying.



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Originally Posted by Numinous View Post
I hope you're being sarcastic here, because you have not one but two instances of blatant misinformation from your part.
You mean I have none. There is no blatant misinformation. I have one truthful statement: I read this; and one unsupported statement: Albert Einstein was in a loony bin. I still don't know for sure this never happened, I just know I haven't found a reference for it. Unless you produced a reference that says "he was never in a loony bin" it isn't blatant misinformation, it's an unsupported statement. I'm not saying it is true, but you don't have the evidence to support your statement. Admission that I may be wrong is the best you can hope for if it hasn't been disproven. Because I could potentially be right, and end up making a fallacious statement, I'm not about to be more wrong so you can "see me own up". If desire for accuracy is harmful to credibility, then I suppose that is me.




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Originally Posted by kael03 View Post
Actually, you would be calling for burden of proof. You are not proving or disproving anything, but are calling for the proof of the claim in question. Now, if you had stated that Naruto is the spawn of Hitler and Jesus (lolwut?), and only offered the argument "You can't prove otherwise so my argument is correct" THEN you would be using a fallacious argument. Though, again, the analogy is pretty retarded.
Exactly, the whole point of the analogy was someone coming up with an unjustified claim, I used such an outrageous one to show the way your post SEEMED to me.



Quote:
Originally Posted by kael03 View Post
Except that's not our definition. Arguing from ignorance (what this whole debate started with) is when a person claims something is true because the contrary isn't proven. In this case "ET being tinkered with is a non-issue because none of the others have been shown to be altered" is arguing from ignorance. Same with the Susano'o argument. Your stance was "All Susano'o must have the Imperial Regalia because it hasn't been stated that all Susano'o do not." Then you pulled a KYF and completely ignored all evidence to the contrary (I posted a link showing Sasuke's Susano'o with no gourd for the Sword of Totsuka, Num's lists of what each Susano'o has in each arm).
That may not be the definition that you think you are using, but it is assuredly the one you are applying to me, because I never once used an argument from ignorance as a claim for the theory's validity. The only thing I ever used it for was to attempt to show a counter-argument as baseless. If you insist I did, link the post where I actually said "Because the arms are empty, all susano'o have the regalia". Point is you can't because I never did. It may have SEEMED that way to you but it wasn't. Linking together two separate statements as one statement is tantamount to putting words in someone's mouth. If you had asked for clarification on either of the posts you may have had some grounds for stating that you were aware of the message they were conveying and possibly even to use your faulty logic in linking them together, but you never did. You ASSUMED you knew what I was saying, and therein lies your being incorrect. I don't see how you can possibly say that saying the fact that we don't know anything about a jutsu means we can't use it as proof of something would be me making an argument from ignorance. I'm merely pointing out that we ARE ignorant, and using it as proof that we can't use the example as proof of anything. The one who is making an argument from ignorance in this case is the one who is claiming Madara's ET to be the new shining example of the jutsu, aka Numinous, and potentially you (though in reality it seems like you are just arguing to argue with me and not to actually prove anything).




Quote:
Originally Posted by kael03 View Post
You used a piece of fictional comedy to claim a great physicist was also institutionalized for a ground breaking theory that is still in use today. Doesn't exactly help with your credibility.
Ok so I made ONE, count them ONE potentially wrong assertion that I instantly admitted to and you say that this takes AWAY my credibility? More faulty logic.



Quote:
Originally Posted by kael03 View Post
"One and only truth"? What would that be? You've blatantly ignored manga chapters that disregard your stance. I pointed out that Kabuto didn't say he made Madara "complete", as you've been arguing, but improved on his body to make him young while maintaining his abilities at their peak (which is what "prime" means in this setting, the peak of some state). I pointed out different pages and panels that completely debunk your ideas.
You pointed out nothing, you stated a deduction as a fact in order to disprove my stance. Nothing you have produced makes it any more than a deduction, or any more valid than mine.




Quote:
Originally Posted by kael03 View Post
Actually, you can improve upon something that was completed. The car, for instance, was completed with the Benz Patent Motorwagon design, but was improved upon over the past century.
So you are now saying that the definition of complete isn't complete.... Excellent, I stand corrected /end sarcasm



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Originally Posted by kael03 View Post
It was either Orochimaru or Kabuto that did the surgery, but Orochimaru was involved with Danzo getting Hashirama's DNA.
Again it was obviously through his research on the first that this occurred, but there is no proof that he did so.


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Originally Posted by kael03 View Post
Except it was proven during the Kage Summit that it was Shisui's arm. Notice how Ao comments on the color of the chakra coming from Danzo's arm and eye being Shisui's color?
We know that he was using Hashi's DNA in conjunction with Shisui's eye to enhance the genjutsu he was casting. The arm was Hashi's, the eye was Shisui's, chakra flow between the two would make absolutely no sense eh?



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Originally Posted by kael03 View Post
Actually, Danzo forcibly ripped his arm off to keep Hashirama's cells from consuming him when he lost control. It didn't "grow off".
That doesn't change the point I was making with the statment.



Quote:
Originally Posted by kael03 View Post
Tobi begs to differ. It was due to Orochimaru's experiments that Izanagi was extended from "a brief instant" to a full minute.
This is just an assumption on Tobi's part, he, just like you, is merely deciding that things are a certain way because it seems so to him. This doesn't make it true.



Quote:
Originally Posted by kael03 View Post
Except he didn't have more than one of the arms with more eyes. He used Shisui's arm to give himself the Uchiha DNA required to cut the chakra drain a non-Uchiha would have when using the Sharingan. Hashirama's DNA was used in combination with Shisui's arm to form Izanagi.
This is a good theory, but it is only a theory, and not a fact. You can't disprove a theory with a theory, only with a fact.

Last edited by almightywood; 12-08-2011 at 06:59 PM.
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Old 12-08-2011, 08:03 PM   #45
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Re: ET zombie state

Quote:
Originally Posted by almightywood View Post
Fine replace Naruto with the 3rd hokage, and then use the analogy.
Still doesn't work, mainly because we know who Hiruzen's father was, but regardless of that tidbit the analogy implied you're negating a positive claim, while in reality you were negating a negative. Sorry, as hard as you want to make the analogy work, it simply does not.

Quote:
If someone wants to tell me I'm full of shit when I make a baseless, outrageous claim, that is their right, I, Unlike you, will not tell them that they are "Fallacious" for doing so.
For someone who bitches about me twisting your words, you sure love to create strawmen. I'd be stupid if I called every person who refutes anything "fallacious", because I know well what the word means. Now when the person who presented fallacious arguments tells the person with more logically valid arguments they're full of shit, something is definitely wrong. This still isn't Soviet Russia for things to behave backwards.

Quote:
You say they aren't your definitions, yet the one you have written in the sticky, is not the one you are applying. This and the fact that you wrote the sticky make your claim that they aren't "your definitions" untrue.
First of all, go read a damn book about logic. If you still think just because I wrote the sticky suddenly I created the logic contained within it, Ancient Greece philosophers beat me to it for millenia and any book about logic will contain information about syllogisms, proportional logic and fallacies incredibly similar to mine, because logic is philosophy's math: it's exact and universal. And I, unlike you, will admit my mistakes for stating what I stated in the sticky if a properly refutation is conducted.

Second:

Quote:
i. Argument from ignorance
Occurs when someone appeals to the unknown nature of the matter being argued instead of providing propositions about it.
Even if I explained it in other words, I never strayed from the intent of this sentence. But even if you don't believe me, go check wikipedia's article on the matter, it'll surely explain it better than me. Specially the bit about argument from ignorance vs evidence of absence, because your posts sound like you think you're using the latter while in reality you're using the first.

Quote:
Here you go again changing the meaning of my words to suit you, something I have yet to do to you, and I am still waiting for the respect to run the other way.
And respect will run the other way as soon as you man up to your mistakes. I'm not twisting your words, I'm reading your posts. When you're owning up to your mistakes, you don't need to say it was because some people told you and they were wrong. When you do that, you are drawing the attention of the reader off of you and into the cause you mentioned. In other words, you're shifting the blame from yourself.

Quote:
It is impossible to prove somebody wrong without first accepting what they are saying. Until you admit that you were wrong in claiming I was claiming the susano'o/regalia theory was true, and that I was using an argument from ignorance as proof that it was so, you will never get any admission of anything from me, because you are trying to obtain it by lying.
Roland: Yes, my dear. I guarantee it. Would I lie?

An e-cookie for who gets the reference.

On a serious note, what.
No, really, what?! Are you seriously that desperate to be right that you want me to admit I'm wrong, even though I applied proper logic in my arguments? Unless you deem using logic as "lying", which already enters the field of delusion, and we already have a delusional loony here, we don't need another one
Quote:
You mean I have none. There is no blatant misinformation. I have one truthful statement: I read this; and one unsupported statement: Albert Einstein was in a loony bin.
You might want to check the dictionary:

Quote:
Misinformation is false or inaccurate information that is spread unintentionally. It is distinguished from disinformation by motive in that misinformation is simply erroneous, while disinformation, in contrast, is intended to mislead.
So yeah, you had two cases of blatant misinformation. You can complain all you like, but you'd be complaining at the English language itself.

Quote:
I still don't know for sure this never happened, I just know I haven't found a reference for it. Unless you produced a reference that says "he was never in a loony bin" it isn't blatant misinformation, it's an unsupported statement. I'm not saying it is true, but you don't have the evidence to support your statement.
Oh good, we don't even need to go to wikipedia to distinguish argument from ignorance from evidence of absence!

You, using an argument from ignorance, are implying that, since we don't hold all the information about Albert Einstein, he could have been in a loony bin due to the theory of relativity.

I can easily use evidence of absence since I cannot find in any reliable source the information that Albert Einstein was in a loony bin due to the theory of relativity.

You're committing a fallacy while I'm using a tool vital to the scientific method.

Quote:
Because I could potentially be right, and end up making a fallacious statement, I'm not about to be more wrong so you can "see me own up". If desire for accuracy is harmful to credibility, then I suppose that is me.
You're not aiming for accuracy, you're hoping the truth falls on your hands since you're betting on the unknown. The truth in the unknown is, surprise, unknown, so there's no such thing as accuracy in a concept where the truth can land pretty much anywhere. That's why arguments from ignorance are harmful to the credibility, because you'd wait for the truth to come like those nutjobs waited for May 21 to be the Rapture.
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Last edited by Numinous; 12-08-2011 at 08:06 PM.
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