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Old 01-24-2012, 04:28 PM   #286
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Re: Us government's trick to violate civil liberties

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Originally Posted by Miburo View Post
^It takes no meaningful amount of effort to post shit on a message board, bro.



Ahahaha. Awesome.

No need to track me down, tough guy. I'll just give you an address to somewhere you can meet me at so you can attempt to chop my massive dong off. Not that I expect you to back up your idle interweb threats. You know, because you're a pussy. = )
You really need to quit sucking your boyfriend's dick after you just got done riding it, because every time you open your mouth some gay ass shit is spilling out.

Nice to see you all are accusing me of fascism while declaring my beliefs to be wrong.
The insults are just exactly what I said I would do to anyone who gave me shit about that post.
Every time he posts anything to me, I'm just going to insult him.

Last edited by almightywood; 01-24-2012 at 04:38 PM.
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Old 01-24-2012, 05:07 PM   #287
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Re: Us government's trick to violate civil liberties

Lets be correct, I called you a fascist. Not because of your believes. But because you have tried to create an instance where you get access to private information, where you have absolutely no responsibility to explain it, and we have no right to question it. Instead of just answering any question or point made to you. You simply dig yourself deeper, avoiding it by burying the lead. Adding continuous streams of self contraindications, and unquantifiable life experiences that you infer make you more qualified to speak and us somehow less.

First it was "I have this conspiracy theory."
Well explain your theory..
Then it was "I don't have to elaborate because I don't debate, I discuss."
Well explain why you do not debate.
"I don't have to tell you why, It;s my philosophy"
Well explain your philosophy then.
"I don't have to because its my belief."
Well at least inform us of your belief so we might understand it.
"No, my definition of belief is different than yours"
Well define the word to us, as you define it to yourself.
"No its immoral to ask me that"

How are you suppose to have a discussion with not just us, with anyone, when you admit to having completely different definitions to words. Then refuse to define them to anyone. That how displaced and abstract an issue gets when one party is unwilling to actually participate for the sake of knowledge. Instead out of fear of being wrong. While I, as mentioned before, relish the opportunity and anticipate the chance to be wrong. Because you can learn from it.

Logic penetrates your private prejudice seeking to replace it with publicly verifiable evidence. Its a way of thinking. If we are not able to ask skeptical questions and be sekptical for those of around us then.... Yeah, that's a scary notion to me.

That's why I used the SOPA example. It follows the exact same line. The various media industries claim that they are losing money out to pirates and should pass this unconstitutional legislation. But when asked to PROVE where and how they are losing money when, there industries are on the incline. The response from guys like Chris Dodd is, "we don't have to prove it, we can see if even if you cannot." That's BS.
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Old 01-24-2012, 05:44 PM   #288
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Re: Us government's trick to violate civil liberties

@AW: Not trying to come at you or anything but the Geocentric theory would still exist if humans followed your way of thinking from back then.
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Old 01-24-2012, 06:56 PM   #289
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Re: Us government's trick to violate civil liberties

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Originally Posted by almightywood View Post
You really need to quit sucking your boyfriend's dick after you just got done riding it, because every time you open your mouth some gay ass shit is spilling out.
Oh, I see now.

You like me! And you're just shy about it. That's why you were tripping up all over yourself in every post. And why you were being all shy about justifying any of the things you were saying. Then you got a bit more comfortable and started sharing more about yourself. Then you got all hot and bothered talking with me so you went on about how you want to manhandle my wang. Now you're posting obvious wishful thinking type sexual fantasies about me. It all adds up.

Awww. You're adorable. <3

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Old 01-24-2012, 08:46 PM   #290
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Re: Us government's trick to violate civil liberties

Being stuck in ones own world of beliefs can be a bad thing .. especially when there are others following blindly into that same pitfall http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9NUc...eature=related
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Old 01-24-2012, 09:45 PM   #291
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Re: Us government's trick to violate civil liberties

Total pot me kettle moment.
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Old 01-25-2012, 12:05 AM   #292
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Re: Us government's trick to violate civil liberties

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axiom View Post
Lets be correct, I called you a fascist. Not because of your believes. But because you have tried to create an instance where you get access to private information, where you have absolutely no responsibility to explain it, and we have no right to question it. Instead of just answering any question or point made to you. You simply dig yourself deeper, avoiding it by burying the lead. Adding continuous streams of self contraindications, and unquantifiable life experiences that you infer make you more qualified to speak and us somehow less.

First it was "I have this conspiracy theory."
Well explain your theory..
Then it was "I don't have to elaborate because I don't debate, I discuss."
Well explain why you do not debate.
"I don't have to tell you why, It;s my philosophy"
Well explain your philosophy then.
"I don't have to because its my belief."
Well at least inform us of your belief so we might understand it.
"No, my definition of belief is different than yours"
Well define the word to us, as you define it to yourself.
"No its immoral to ask me that"

How are you suppose to have a discussion with not just us, with anyone, when you admit to having completely different definitions to words. Then refuse to define them to anyone. That how displaced and abstract an issue gets when one party is unwilling to actually participate for the sake of knowledge. Instead out of fear of being wrong. While I, as mentioned before, relish the opportunity and anticipate the chance to be wrong. Because you can learn from it.

Logic penetrates your private prejudice seeking to replace it with publicly verifiable evidence. Its a way of thinking. If we are not able to ask skeptical questions and be sekptical for those of around us then.... Yeah, that's a scary notion to me.

That's why I used the SOPA example. It follows the exact same line. The various media industries claim that they are losing money out to pirates and should pass this unconstitutional legislation. But when asked to PROVE where and how they are losing money when, there industries are on the incline. The response from guys like Chris Dodd is, "we don't have to prove it, we can see if even if you cannot." That's BS.
Actually for the conspiracy theory I offered links to resources for people that asked for it that I hadn't already deemed trolls.

I provided my philosophy when asked for, though I refused to provide any deeper insights into it because that would be wrong.

Every time I have clarified what I meant by a word or a phrase, you gaggle of trolls called it backpedaling, or told me I was wrong and ignored it. You all may enjoy fighting a battle you can't win, but I don't. I don't like fighting about shit at all to begin with.

By the way that you are describing whatever it is you are claiming I am guilty of I would say that you would have to say the same thing to someone who refused to share every last piece of information on their financial state. A normal person with social responsibility wouldn't ask the question to begin with, but if they did for some good reason they would accept the fact that they were only going to get so much information due to the fact that it is a private matter.

I absolutely have no need, requirement, or any other word with similar meaning to explain or uphold my beliefs to you, or anyone ever. The same thing applies to every single person on the face of the planet. They never have to explain or uphold their beliefs to anyone ever. IF they CHOOSE to, well then the people that are ASKING for it should be happy with whatever the person chooses to disclose.

There's a reason that politics and religion are considered taboo topics pretty much anywhere I've ever been that respects the concept of social responsibility. And if you think this isn't a conversation along the same lines, then we have nothing more to say to each other.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ninjalostboy95 View Post
@AW: Not trying to come at you or anything but the Geocentric theory would still exist if humans followed your way of thinking from back then.
Not really, the idea of a geocentric universe was disproved through research and number crunching, not through pointless arguments. I am more than willing to abandon a belief if you can prove it impossible. If you are just going to say you believe something different, and produce facts to back up what you believe without disproving what I do, then I could care less, and will not change what I believe and (hopefully) not even deign to respond.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miburo View Post
Oh, I see now.

You like me! And you're just shy about it. That's why you were tripping up all over yourself in every post. And why you were being all shy about justifying any of the things you were saying. Then you got a bit more comfortable and started sharing more about yourself. Then you got all hot and bothered talking with me so you went on about how you want to manhandle my wang. Now you're posting obvious wishful thinking type sexual fantasies about me. It all adds up.

Awww. You're adorable. <3
That's exactly it, all along I only ever wanted to make you my fucking bitch. I want to be the one who's putting your gay ass shit in your mouth to spill out.
Now bitch, why don't you put your lips to their only good use and start sucking my dick?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Human Rasengan View Post
Being stuck in ones own world of beliefs can be a bad thing .. especially when there are others following blindly into that same pitfall http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9NUc...eature=related
I am not completely stuck on my beliefs, I just don't really give a shit what people that can't even grasp what I am trying to say (I'm not implying that you are one of them) have to say about them.

Last edited by almightywood; 01-25-2012 at 12:10 AM.
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Old 01-25-2012, 12:43 AM   #293
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Re: Us government's trick to violate civil liberties

Quote:
Originally Posted by almightywood View Post
Not really, the idea of a geocentric universe was disproved through research and number crunching, not through pointless arguments. I am more than willing to abandon a belief if you can prove it impossible.
You just proved your "no belief is wrong" belief in this very post. The idea of a geocentric universe was a world wide BELIEF until it was disproven by Copernicus, Galileo, and Kepler with the heliocentric model.

Quote:
I am not completely stuck on my beliefs,
Yes, you are. You refuse to budge from this "there is no wrong" bullshit idealism you have because you can't admit you are wrong about...EVERYTHING you posted in this thread, including the original topic.

Quote:
I just don't really give a shit what people that can't even grasp what I am trying to say (I'm not implying that you are one of them) have to say about them.
You do give a shit since you are fighting tooth and nail to get us to follow your ideals so you can't be proven wrong (which you have been on numerous occasions).
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Old 01-25-2012, 01:08 AM   #294
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Re: Us government's trick to violate civil liberties

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Originally Posted by kael03 View Post
You just proved your "no belief is wrong" belief in this very post. The idea of a geocentric universe was a world wide BELIEF until it was disproven by Copernicus, Galileo, and Kepler with the heliocentric model.
I already established that you all have a different idea of what the word belief means than I do. A belief is something that deals with the unknown. Once it was PROVEN IMPOSSIBLE it stopped being a belief because it was KNOWN. If you are only going to pick and choose half of what I said on a subject, it's really easy to make things look goofy. Something you are really good at doing. (not addressing what people are actually saying)



Quote:
Yes, you are. You refuse to budge from this "there is no wrong" bullshit idealism you have because you can't admit you are wrong about...EVERYTHING you posted in this thread, including the original topic.
Let's see, I never claimed the original topic was so, merely that it existed, so who exactly proved that it didn't exist for me to have been wrong?

As for the rest of it, who exactly proved my beliefs impossible, which is the only way they could be wrong?



Quote:
You do give a shit since you are fighting tooth and nail to get us to follow your ideals so you can't be proven wrong (which you have been on numerous occasions).
The fuck I do, if I did give a shit what you all had to say on the subject, I probably would have already changed my mind. As I have stated numerous times, I just want you all the fuck out so I can maybe find the people I do want to discuss with here. I have never once even attempted to get you all to agree with anything I have to say, I have merely attempted to get you all not to fuck with me for saying/believing it myself, so this is another steaming pile of troll dump in an attempt to steer this discussion down roads it will never go.
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Old 01-25-2012, 05:22 AM   #295
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Re: Us government's trick to violate civil liberties

Quote:
There's a reason that politics and religion are considered taboo topics pretty much anywhere I've ever been that respects the concept of social responsibility. And if you think this isn't a conversation along the same lines, then we have nothing more to say to each other.
Well, I respect the concept of social responsibility and I don't deem politics and religion taboo topics. On the contrary, they're topics that need to be discussed vehemently since they have a great influence in our lives (even if you're neutral about them).

Quote:
I already established that you all have a different idea of what the word belief means than I do.
Correction, you already established that you have a different idea of what the word belief means than the rest of the world who speaks English. Once again, stop using the wrong word and track down the word that suits your definition.
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Old 01-25-2012, 05:43 AM   #296
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Re: Us government's trick to violate civil liberties

Quote:
Originally Posted by Numinous View Post
Correction, you already established that you have a different idea of what the word belief means than the rest of the world who speaks English. Once again, stop using the wrong word and track down the word that suits your definition.
I could care less that the lexical definition differs from my own. I have established the theoretical definition that applies here.
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Old 01-25-2012, 08:16 AM   #297
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Re: Us government's trick to violate civil liberties

We've nearly boiled it down - this whole thing comes down to word definition. While most of us accept there are multiple definitions that can lead to a much larger context for that world, AW is using them very specifically to make his points. We can provide the broad implications of what the words he uses means, but it doesn't matter because his specific definitions make his point so succinctly for him.

The end of the story is, "beliefs" for AW mean "things that can't be known" and therefore is not a list of "things we believe" which include many fact laden ideas and philosophies. So, anything with facts is not truly a "belief" in his argumentation, sorry, discussion. So put away your science and reasoning because these things cannot be touched.

Except they can. Proof of god often invovles material observations (miracles and visitations), physical objects (earth evidence, religious texts) and whatnot. The debate usually goes something like:

Believer: Look at all this evidence!
Non-Believer: <provides proof of why that evidence is faulty or incomplete casting doubt>
Believer: None of that matters because you can't KNKOW if god exists or know his mind - he's beyond the realm of facts.

I call all that bullshit. Everything we believe or know passes through our brains and is interpreted by it. There is nothing that cannot be known, only an insufficency in our abilities to see clearly, think clearly and use words clearly. It is not about picking an choosing our definitions and facts but trying to interpret all the information that passes through our brains. Nothing is without evidence and beliefs and facts grow flawed for every piece of information we decide to "overlook" or "theoretical definition" we use to special case our "beliefs".

And I would guess a lot of people here agree with that sentiment. THAT is why we are at odds AW - not that I expect you to understand - not because you are wrong to believe the way to you do but the fact that you modify definitions and positions to fit your views rather than the otherway and when provided with counterpoints you "move the yardstick" or "turtle" the argument, sorry, discussion to suit your own needs.

Final point to all those who read but don't want to post out of "fear of beratement", it's the internet. People are bound to disagree and argue and debate but in the end, the only person you have to deal with is yourself. Perhaps I'm old enough to remember a time when I didn't talk to people except "over a phone" and "face-to-face" that things the computer spits at me have little impact because I don't meet or see the people. If I put out a thought and the forum calls me an "ignorant douche", I don't really get upset. Rather I ignore it because I don't believe I am or I examine my argument for evidence that I am what they say (rarely am I convinced as I assume most of you out there are).

So why is there "fear?" What can we possibily do to you? The moderators here have fully shown no urge to punish anyone (AW is talking about putting actual fecal matter in Miburo's mouth in some sort of sado-masochistic sex act and believe me, he won't be punished - I figure you won't go that far), so the worst that can happen is people diagree with you. If you are OK with that and know when not to continue, you'll be fine. There are memebers who aren't often agreed with who manage to coexist with the rest just fine.

Then there are those who won't give up the bone and entertain us royally. You choose.
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Old 01-25-2012, 09:35 AM   #298
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Re: Us government's trick to violate civil liberties

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Originally Posted by ACt View Post
We've nearly boiled it down - this whole thing comes down to word definition. While most of us accept there are multiple definitions that can lead to a much larger context for that world, AW is using them very specifically to make his points. We can provide the broad implications of what the words he uses means, but it doesn't matter because his specific definitions make his point so succinctly for him.
That sounds pretty close to me.

Quote:
The end of the story is, "beliefs" for AW mean "things that can't be known" and therefore is not a list of "things we believe" which include many fact laden ideas and philosophies. So, anything with facts is not truly a "belief" in his argumentation, sorry, discussion. So put away your science and reasoning because these things cannot be touched.
It's more like beliefs are the things you believe in even though they are unknown. They are something that you decide for no logical reason other than that they feel right. As soon as it becomes known, it no longer qualifies as a belief. At which point it either is or is impossible.
I don't care one whit about probability of a possibility. Odds do lie.... all the time. Maybe not over a large sample, but odds don't really tell you anything about what's going to happen to one person.

If something ISN'T unknown then it is an understanding, this would be what you get when you believe something based on facts and occurrences.

Quote:
Except they can. Proof of god often invovles material observations (miracles and visitations), physical objects (earth evidence, religious texts) and whatnot. The debate usually goes something like:

Believer: Look at all this evidence!
Non-Believer: <provides proof of why that evidence is faulty or incomplete casting doubt>
Believer: None of that matters because you can't KNKOW if god exists or know his mind - he's beyond the realm of facts.

I call all that bullshit. Everything we believe or know passes through our brains and is interpreted by it. There is nothing that cannot be known, only an insufficency in our abilities to see clearly, think clearly and use words clearly. It is not about picking an choosing our definitions and facts but trying to interpret all the information that passes through our brains. Nothing is without evidence and beliefs and facts grow flawed for every piece of information we decide to "overlook" or "theoretical definition" we use to special case our "beliefs".
Now you're getting into dealing with subjective and objective proof. I don't care to present subjective proof, nor do I care to be presented with it since it is inconclusive. Objective proof couldn't be an opinion or a belief because it would be a fact.

Quote:
And I would guess a lot of people here agree with that sentiment. THAT is why we are at odds AW - not that I expect you to understand - not because you are wrong to believe the way to you do but the fact that you modify definitions and positions to fit your views rather than the otherway and when provided with counterpoints you "move the yardstick" or "turtle" the argument, sorry, discussion to suit your own needs.
I realize it may appear that way to you, but as I have stated before, that is not at all the case. I am only clarifying my intent as you begin to apply it in ways that had nothing to do with my intentions. I tend to be rather vague with any discussion I begin at first. It leaves places for conversations to start. I use it pretty much to discern who I am going to have serious talks with. If someone comes off with anything anywhere close to nuh-uh, that's bologna, then I never discuss anything with that person ever if I can help it. (I'd say I've done a fairly good job of not doing much more than clarifying some minor points up to now, you guys are persistent as fuck though) The only reason I even bothered responding to Kael's first post to me was because I felt I should put up at least a token defense for this theory of someone else's that I was intending to introduce to someone else altogether (that I knew I could probably have a pretty good discussion with) so I attempted to keep him from destroying it.

If someone says oh but what about this? this doesn't make sense to me, then I will go into more detail. I don't get along well with people that don't deal well with freeform thinking, hence why I just don't even bother to start with them.

Maybe some of you I have been criticizing would have fallen into the one category if you hadn't jumped into this debacle in the middle, I can't say.

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Old 01-25-2012, 10:06 AM   #299
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Re: Us government's trick to violate civil liberties

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Originally Posted by almightywood View Post
It's more like beliefs are the things you believe in even though they are unknown. They are something that you decide for no logical reason other than that they feel right. As soon as it becomes known, it no longer qualifies as a belief. At which point it either is or is impossible.
I don't care one whit about probability of a possibility. Odds do lie.... all the time. Maybe not over a large sample, but odds don't really tell you anything about what's going to happen to one person.
See, this is where the big difference is. You say it is UNKNOWN and therefore free from critical examination. I say nothing is free from critical examination because that is the only way we gain new knowledge. I am in science and we continually state what we "believe to be occurring" (i.e. a hypothesis) in a situation and then work to test it to gain new knowledge. I don't see how you can separate anything from this process unless you do not want to KNOW and would rather be happy just BELIEVING.

When people give me this I generally bring up gravity. We like to say we "know" that gravity exists based on the endless proofs we have. I.e. pick up stone, drop stone, stone falls. Do measurements, boom - gravity. But we don't know what specifically causes gravity. Must like the electromagnetic forces can be described by the properties and actions of electrons, physicists believe there is a particle, psuedoparticle, string or something at the root of gravitational force between masses. Yet we don't know what it is and it is a hole in the GUT of the universe.

So despite circumstantial evidence, we don't truly KNOW about gravity, but fully BELIEVE in it.

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Now you're getting into dealing with subjective and objective proof. I don't care to present subjective proof, nor do I care to be presented with it since it is inconclusive. Objective proof couldn't be an opinion or a belief because it would be a fact.
Well, my point before was that everything is interpreted by brains with in us, therefore nothing is truly objective. Everything has our personal bent to it so the difference between subjective proof and objective proof, philosophically at least, is how much evidence you choose to base it on. In a perfect world, that would be all the evidence you have been exposed to, which is how I try to approach every topic.

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I realize it may appear that way to you, but as I have stated before, that is not at all the case. I tend to be rather vague with any discussion I begin at first. It leaves places for conversations to start. I use it pretty much to discern who I am going to have serious talks with. If someone comes off with anything anywhere close to nuh-uh, that's bologna, then I never discuss anything with that person ever if I can help it. (I'd say I've done a fairly good job of not doing much more than clarifying some minor points up to now, you guys are persistent as fuck though) The only reason I even bothered responding to Kael's first post to me was because I felt I should put up at least a token defense for this theory of someone else's that I was intending to introduce to someone else altogether (that I knew I could probably have a pretty good discussion with) so I attempted to keep him from destroying it.

If someone says oh but what about this? this doesn't make sense to me, then I will go into more detail. I don't get along well with people that don't deal well with freeform thinking, hence why I just don't even bother to start with them.

Maybe some of you I have been criticizing would have fallen into the one category if you hadn't jumped into this debacle in the middle, I can't say.
See, this is probably the most infuriating part. We are persistent for two reasons: one, you make no sense and it is rather amusing to some of us. Two, we are trying to get you to define and justify your positions. Seriously, if you had done that from the outset, many would have "OK, moving on" a lot sooner even if they didn't agree. A few would have challenged you but if you stuck to your principal reasoning, they would have lost interest. The fact that you have been deliberately vague and worked to clarify small points and push definitions comes across as a "redefinition argument" rather than a "this is how I believe it is" (oh, and one, I don't fully believe it still is not the former and two, you can see how your narrow definition stances gets me in trouble for using words in their broader sense - thought that might be partially on me for not using a larger lexicon). Your style deliberate leads to misunderstandings and while you seem to enjoy that because it drives a "discussion" that keeps allowing you to be correct, it is a shitty way to treat with others.

I mean, seriously, try it in court one day.

No one here is discussing because they truly care what you believe. What you do in your real life, in your own time is completely up to you and will not affect us (unless you are a public personality which I really hope not, no offense). We are here to sound our ideas, challenge our own argumentation skills, be entertained because we like this shit and, perhaps, just perhaps, find some sort of consensus or idea that we hadn't considered. It is a process that rewards and benefits the individual involved with little care for how it affects the other internet personalities involved.

Clarification - Miburo may have found this intellectually rewarding, batshit hilarious or utterly a waste of time. That does not matter to me in the least.

So your methods have truly been infuriating and laughable rather than helpful because you admit to holding back and drawing us along by being "intentionally vague" and "giving it up little by little". It has led to your arguments, sorry, discussion, folding in on themselves in a hilarious logic circle that I don't think you yet realize and culminated in a simple question, put by Mal, to justify everything that I feel you have failed to answer and would have pushed us away from the topic in a while.

In short, your vague method had drawn us away from the topic you wanted to discuss because all we wanted to was to understand where you were placing your logical stance so we could respond. Turns out, that topic, so drawn out by you, was more entertaining that what you wanted to talk about. So it's on you that YOUR thread has been moved off topic.

And believe this, you can make your point a clear and detailed as you want and it won't halt discussion here. There are more than enough minds to provide counterpoints and debate starters. No need to be vague; we're far smarter than that. And we have the internet if we're not. Of course, that would also rely on you accepting that beliefs/opinions/facts can be challenged, can be wrong and are definitely open to debate.
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Old 01-25-2012, 10:30 AM   #300
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Re: Us government's trick to violate civil liberties

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Originally Posted by almightywood View Post
It's more like beliefs are the things you believe in even though they are unknown. They are something that you decide for no logical reason other than that they feel right. As soon as it becomes known, it no longer qualifies as a belief. At which point it either is or is impossible.
Then, yet again, you're using the wrong word. That's not belief, that's faith. Belief is the certainty in the truth/validity of something, while faith is a kind of belief that does not require logical proof or physical evidence.

Considering that, now I clearly see why you whined all this time about beliefs being immune to criticism, you meant faith all along. So in that case you are right, faith is immune to criticism because it precludes it in its core, although that doesn't make you any less stupid for confusing the terms and upholding faith above logic.

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I don't care one whit about probability of a possibility. Odds do lie.... all the time. Maybe not over a large sample, but odds don't really tell you anything about what's going to happen to one person.
That's because probability isn't meant to be some precognition discipline, but a study of the occurrence of facts. It's a great way to weed out possibilities that are wrong since if they have an excruciatingly low chance of ever happening on the verge of being downright dismissed as null, why even consider them?

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If something ISN'T unknown then it is an understanding, this would be what you get when you believe something based on facts and occurrences.
No. An understanding is pretty much comprehension of a subject, it does not require belief in said subject. Also, said subject doesn't need to be based on facts and occurrences to be target of an understanding.

For example, I have an understanding of Young Earth Creationism but I don't believe in it.

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Now you're getting into dealing with subjective and objective proof. I don't care to present subjective proof, nor do I care to be presented with it since it is inconclusive.
There's no such thing as "subjective proof". Either proof is objective or it isn't proof at all, so you pretty much said nothing here.

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Objective proof couldn't be an opinion or a belief because it would be a fact.
You're wrong. Fact is something which existence is known, demonstrable and testable. Proof can be the demonstration of a fact, belief can be certainty in a fact, opinion can be judgment upon a fact, but none of them would become fact for being based on one.

That's why you can say you believe in a fact without breaking the meaning of the word "belief".
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