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Old 02-02-2012, 06:33 PM   #391
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Re: Us government's trick to violate civil liberties

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Originally Posted by almightywood View Post
I thought I made it pretty clear that I believe your understanding of the english language is as limited as you think mine is flawed.
Yes, because my understanding of English is so limited that I understand how can one be an agnostic atheist and your understanding of English simply denies that possibility.

Which is ironic since I had to learn English from scratch when you were pretty much raised with it. Or not, since I have to know exactly what I'm saying since it's not my mother language and you just take it for granted and twist it to nonsensical lengths.
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Old 02-02-2012, 07:30 PM   #392
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Re: Us government's trick to violate civil liberties

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Originally Posted by Numinous View Post
Sorry for the language, but fuck you. Both of you. After I gave not one but two explanations of what agnostic and atheist actually mean in English in a manner anyone can comprehend easily and you still prefer to go with the misuse of the words?

Check the dictionaries, go to blogs, call the fucking pope if you want to, (a)gnosticism is about knowledge and (a)theism is about belief, they are interchangeable and you are a pair of morons to think otherwise.
Wow dude no need to get bent out of shape it was just a simple question.. and besides I didn't need to read your posts on what you believe the words to mean I went to dictionary dot com to see the definition on both and noticed a foot note on each page that notes not to confuse the two terms of athiest and agnostice which is why i tried to get an understanding of the two words before i posted but you can check the definitions they posed for yourself http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/agnostic http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheist


and belief and knowledge aren't really interchangeable you can believe something but that doesn't mean you have "knowledge of something ie belief in god but not knowledge of him- agnosticism

and knowledge of something but not belief.. atheists have knowledge of others believing in a God or higher power but that is something they don not believe (in)

I may be wrong but that was my understanding on the matter!

Oh and kudos Numi on being a foreigner and learning English I'm glad for you!
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Old 02-02-2012, 08:23 PM   #393
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Re: Us government's trick to violate civil liberties

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Originally Posted by almightywood View Post
I thought I made it pretty clear that I believe your understanding of the english language is as limited as you think mine is flawed.
What you think doesn't matter to anyone except you, unless you can back it up. Which you won't, and couldn't even if you wanted to. Num can, and has, backed up his claims. So what he thinks actually has objective worth.

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Originally Posted by Human Rasengan View Post
Wow dude no need to get bent out of shape it was just a simple question.. and besides I didn't need to read your posts on what you believe the words to mean I went to dictionary dot com to see the definition on both and noticed a foot note on each page that notes not to confuse the two terms of athiest and agnostice which is why i tried to get an understanding of the two words before i posted but you can check the definitions they posed for yourself http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/agnostic http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheist


and belief and knowledge aren't really interchangeable you can believe something but that doesn't mean you have "knowledge of something ie belief in god but not knowledge of him- agnosticism

and knowledge of something but not belief.. atheists have knowledge of others believing in a God or higher power but that is something they don not believe (in)

I may be wrong but that was my understanding on the matter!

Oh and kudos Numi on being a foreigner and learning English I'm glad for you!
You're wrong. Num didn't actually mean that the terms are interchangeable. He obviously meant that they're not mutually exclusive, based on the context of his posts. Harping on that after knowing english isn't his first language is pretty lame.

Being agnostic means you can't demonstrate that a god exists or doesn't exist (Keep in mind that no one has to prove god doesn't exist, of course). It is referring to actual knowledge of god existing. Not knowledge of anything, like knowing people believe in that shit. Seriously, what the fuck. Everyone is agnostic. If someone thinks he's not agnostic then he's basically just saying he's an idiot.

Atheists simply don't believe in any god(s). That's it. If someone asks you if you believe in god and you don't say "yes" then you're an atheist. Very simple shit.

So you can be both. See, not mutually exclusive. Again, simply fucking shit.
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Old 02-02-2012, 08:46 PM   #394
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Re: Us government's trick to violate civil liberties

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Originally Posted by almightywood View Post
The whole point of the statement is the topic at hand. I was asked to present my beliefs, I never once asked you all for yours. I never claimed my way of thinking was law for the universe at large, just for me. I have never attempted to detail my beliefs because I don't wish to spread my values to people that would obviously be better off with their own. If my beliefs would be workable for you, I wouldn't have had such a hard time conveying even the simple messages I have conveyed. I posted them because I wanted to find variations of my beliefs with people that have similar ones, not because I wanted to argue about them with the person that asked for them. I have only ever denounced mistaken interpretations of my words, or attacks against my stance, never anything that was presented as a belief or understanding in and of itself. I have said things, like: it doesn't matter, it doesn't apply, it doesn't change anything.

You all have said things like: it doesn't fit, that's wrong, etc.

There's a difference between not subscribing to something and not acknowledging it. You all do not acknowledge (though the majority of this lot jump directly to denouncement which is a step farther yet), I do not subscribe.
Holy crap, really? So by questioning, rebuking and, yes, denouncing your "point of view", even simply asking for clarification, we have not acknowledged it? Seriously?

I know it seems like a tag line for me, but SERIOUSLY?!!

I acknowledge your point of view. I acknowledge it seems flawed and at odds with mine. I have challenged it and expected defense. I acknowledge your defense is "you can't do that PLUS you don't acknowledge that my view exists".

Hell, I think most of us have acknowledged that you have to the right to believe the way you do. What you do not have the right to is be free of controversey surrounding it. THAT is what this is about. You do not have the right to expect everyone to just let you be. Opinions, points of view, religions, feelings and facts all can come under scrutiny and no one has the right not to be examined by others who agree or disagree.

And I don't care one rat's ass if you don't subscribe or acknowledge that.

Oh wait, I should have asked first: What's your definition of "acknowledge"? I could totally be arguing the wrong thing because your english language is so different.

In conclusion, everyone who can should really just stop this and go read Prophecies of Fire and go add to that discussion because it is so much better than this. Seriously, go now. Do it!
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Old 02-02-2012, 08:53 PM   #395
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Re: Us government's trick to violate civil liberties

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Originally Posted by Numinous View Post
Yes, because my understanding of English is so limited that I understand how can one be an agnostic atheist and your understanding of English simply denies that possibility.
By my understanding someone is allowed to not take any side whatsoever where your understanding requires someone to take sides, so yeah I'd say it's pretty limited.

Quote:
Which is ironic since I had to learn English from scratch when you were pretty much raised with it. Or not, since I have to know exactly what I'm saying since it's not my mother language and you just take it for granted and twist it to nonsensical lengths.
English is nowhere near as rigid a language as you would have people believe. The only twisting of language that is occurring is you not taking the definitions that are offered by people to supplement their statements.

Connotative definitions are not in the dictionary because then they would be denotative definitions. They are the subtle nuances in words that people associate due to events and influences in their lives. Some of them are group connotations, some of them are individual. Just because a word doesn't have that connotation for you, and you've never heard of it, doesn't make it an invalid connotation. It could be an invalid connotation for the statement it is being applied to, but that can only be decided by the person who made the statement.

The only way you can fully comprehend these connotations is if you possess them yourself. For instance, every time you have seen someone say that a belief or an opinion can't be wrong, I can pretty much guarantee that they are using the same definition of it that I do.
Is it wrong? Not that there is such a thing as a wrong connotation in general, but no. The inability to accept connotations that people have added to their statements just makes you unable to adequately assess any statement that they make.
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Old 02-02-2012, 09:23 PM   #396
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Re: Us government's trick to violate civil liberties

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Originally Posted by Miburo View Post
You're wrong. Num didn't actually mean that the terms are interchangeable.
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I can ony go by what he has said
He obviously meant that they're not mutually exclusive,
Quote:
well he said he choses his words carefully being that English isn't his first language so I can only assume that he took just as much scrutiny this time before he hit the submit button
based on the context of his posts. Harping on that after knowing english isn't his first language is pretty lame.
Quote:
He manages just fine with English so there was no reason to take the statement further than where he left it.. either dude is the genius he professes to be or I need to re-evaluate every statement he posts for an alternative meaning do to his language "handicap"
Being agnostic means you can't demonstrate that a god exists or doesn't exist (Keep in mind that no one has to prove god doesn't exist, of course).
Quote:
just because one presents evidence and the other person doesn 't accept it doesn't mean they lack proof it just means the other individual didn't deem the proff supplanted accurate... The fact that my internal organs have a design to them and I dont have to make a conscious discision to breath while I'm sleep is proof enough for me that there is a God. I see the proability that random cosmic shit ended up with human life forms and it's complexities to be retarded.. but others can overlook this and say they need further proof or examples
It is referring to actual knowledge of god existing. Not knowledge of anything, like knowing people believe in that shit. Seriously, what the fuck. Everyone is agnostic. If someone thinks he's not agnostic then he's basically just saying he's an idiot.

Atheists simply don't believe in any god(s). That's it. If someone asks you if you believe in god and you don't say "yes" then you're an atheist. Very simple shit.

So you can be both. See, not mutually exclusive. Again, simply fucking shit.

Ok I got you
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Old 02-02-2012, 09:31 PM   #397
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Re: Us government's trick to violate civil liberties

I agree, AW.

It's like that time I said that I believe beliefs can be wrong in this thread and some douche told me I didn't understand what beliefs are. But fuck that retard, because there is no such thing as a wrong connotation. He just lacked the ability to adequately assess any of the statements that I made. What a fucking dumbass. He's probably a pedophile too. I would track him down and brutally murder him if I was a bit more computer savvy.


Edit: You're a fucking retard, HR. If you read all the other posts Num made then what he meant was painfully obvious. But whatever, continue harping on a single phrase out of a fuckload of posts that elaborated as to exactly what he meant, even though english isn't his first language. That doesn't make you look like a total douche or anything...

And I was talking about actual evidence that clearly demonstrates that a god actually exists. Not retarded "Works for me, derp" shit. Us having organs or breathing in our sleep (What the fuck?) doesn't prove a god exists. But if you think it does, and you're saying you're a gnostic theist then thanks for proving my point: Everyone who claims to be gnostic is straight-up stupid.

Oh, and learn how to quote shit like a normal person, you tard.

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Old 02-02-2012, 09:39 PM   #398
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Re: Us government's trick to violate civil liberties

^ can't tell if serious????
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Old 02-02-2012, 09:41 PM   #399
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Re: Us government's trick to violate civil liberties

Wow, you're stupid.
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Old 02-02-2012, 10:38 PM   #400
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Re: Us government's trick to violate civil liberties

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Originally Posted by Miburo View Post
Wow, you're stupid.
Well no new news there
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Old 02-03-2012, 09:30 AM   #401
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Re: Us government's trick to violate civil liberties

Oops, meant "intersecting", not "interchangeable", my mistake. Thanks to Miburo for clearing that up.

Quote:
By my understanding someone is allowed to not take any side whatsoever where your understanding requires someone to take sides, so yeah I'd say it's pretty limited.
As I said previously, the human brain evolved with the promotion of taking sides immediately due to survival issues. It is IMPOSSIBLE for you to acknowledge something and not form an opinion for or against it, even if feign.

That's why there are no neutral parties in politics, humans just can't be truly neutral about politics without either ignoring or avoiding them. The same goes for food, music, the existence of God, among others.

So what if my understanding of English does not recognize "neutral" under the category of God (non) beliefs? Mu understanding allows a Gnostic Theist, an Agnostic Theist, a Deist, a Spiritual Atheist, an Agnostic Atheist and a Gnostic Atheist vs your understanding of only having Theist, Atheist, Agnostic and Neutral. 6 terms vs 4 terms and I'm the limited one? Try harder, will you?

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English is nowhere near as rigid a language as you would have people believe. The only twisting of language that is occurring is you not taking the definitions that are offered by people to supplement their statements.
Wrong. I know damn well English is a flexible language, as I know Portuguese, French and Spanish also are because I speak them. That's maybe why I'm not treating English as an amorphous blob as you are, because, even if a word has various definitions, we still need those definitions to be common between people to avoid misunderstandings and many losses in translations.

I've said sometimes in this forum that the Portuguese word saudade really has no translation in English because "I miss you" sort of fits, but does not convey the entire connotation saudade has. Same thing goes the other way around, we don't have a word for bullying, the closest is maltratar but, again, it does not convey the entirety of the connotation. Just imagine how weird it'd be if you learned Portuguese to have the word bullying mean the school kind and slavery, wife beating and animal cruelty just to cover the lack of the word.

It's the same damn thing it's happening here, you're adding a connotation to the word belief people aren't aware of just to cover a gap. But the thing is, there's already a word covering that and it is faith. USE IT, since the language was oh-so kind to provide it to properly convey your idea.

Quote:
Just because a word doesn't have that connotation for you, and you've never heard of it, doesn't make it an invalid connotation.
Yes, it does. Not in the sense of only me not being aware of it, but in the sense nobody else but you being aware of it. What'd you say if I say elephant is a state of depression since that's a connotation I give it? If you say "but that's just a silly connotation", pot, meet kettle.

Quote:
For instance, every time you have seen someone say that a belief or an opinion can't be wrong, I can pretty much guarantee that they are using the same definition of it that I do.
And that statement died before it was born. I saw some people used that excuse and it wasn't with your definition, it was with the dictionary one. So you're still special in your stupidity.

@ HR: I made a mistake, which I know is kind of silly after saying I have to know what I'm saying, but sometimes I slip. I'm only human, so listen to Miburo since he explained it nicely.

Quote:
just because one presents evidence and the other person doesn 't accept it doesn't mean they lack proof it just means the other individual didn't deem the proff supplanted accurate... The fact that my internal organs have a design to them and I dont have to make a conscious discision to breath while I'm sleep is proof enough for me that there is a God. I see the proability that random cosmic shit ended up with human life forms and it's complexities to be retarded.. but others can overlook this and say they need further proof or examples
This takes me back to proof vs suggestion. What you just said are suggestions of God, if they were proof they'd be unquestionable. So you presented no proof of God, or did anyone for that matter.

Miburo is right when he says everyone's agnostic about God's existence, because that's what is logically happening. The terms Gnostic (a)theist only comes up when people are so convinced of their (a)theism they proclaim to know that God does (not) indeed exist. It's illogical, but that's what you get with the flexibility of definition (oh wait, AW thinks I'm strict, it must be a contradiction, oh noes!!!).
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Old 02-03-2012, 10:06 AM   #402
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Re: Us government's trick to violate civil liberties

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Originally Posted by Numinous View Post
As I said previously, the human brain evolved with the promotion of taking sides immediately due to survival issues. It is IMPOSSIBLE for you to acknowledge something and not form an opinion for or against it, even if feign.
Well that's a load of shit, I hardly ever choose sides on anything, especially upon first hearing it.

Quote:
That's why there are no neutral parties in politics, humans just can't be truly neutral about politics without either ignoring or avoiding them. The same goes for food, music, the existence of God, among others.
There are no neutral parties in politics because joining a party is showing an interest and is therefore the opposite of neutrality, not a good example.

Quote:
So what if my understanding of English does not recognize "neutral" under the category of God (non) beliefs? Mu understanding allows a Gnostic Theist, an Agnostic Theist, a Deist, a Spiritual Atheist, an Agnostic Atheist and a Gnostic Atheist vs your understanding of only having Theist, Atheist, Agnostic and Neutral. 6 terms vs 4 terms and I'm the limited one? Try harder, will you?
If it doesn't recognize where the middle is, they I don't care how many different variations of right and left it has, it is not as versatile as the one that does recognize the middle.



Quote:
Wrong. I know damn well English is a flexible language, as I know Portuguese, French and Spanish also are because I speak them. That's maybe why I'm not treating English as an amorphous blob as you are, because, even if a word has various definitions, we still need those definitions to be common between people to avoid misunderstandings and many losses in translations.
I have never tried to claim anything was invalid, merely inapplicable. Again what you are talking about is solely denotative definitions for words. The existence and acceptability for denotative definitions is a good and necessary thing, but doesn't in any way make connotative definitions invalid or inapplicable.

Quote:
It's the same damn thing it's happening here, you're adding a connotation to the word belief people aren't aware of just to cover a gap. But the thing is, there's already a word covering that and it is faith. USE IT, since the language was oh-so kind to provide it to properly convey your idea.
The hell I am, the hell it is, the word doesn't apply due to connotations it possesses while belief does in fact possess those connotations for more than just me, you just never took the time to fully grasp it when presented by other people, or they never bothered to explain it to you. After all it took over 300 posts for you to grasp what just I meant by it, anyone not as stubborn as I would never have taken the time to let you know what they meant.



Quote:
Yes, it does. Not in the sense of only me not being aware of it, but in the sense nobody else but you being aware of it. What'd you say if I say elephant is a state of depression since that's a connotation I give it? If you say "but that's just a silly connotation", pot, meet kettle.
See here you go again thinking that you can make up some random stupid shit in an example of what my words entail, or some random stupid shit to try and correct an analogy that I threw out there. Well guess what, if you have trouble grasping what the other person is saying, there's no way in hell any analogy you come up with about what the person is saying could fit.


Quote:
And that statement died before it was born. I saw some people used that excuse and it wasn't with your definition, it was with the dictionary one. So you're still special in your stupidity.
Whatever, go ask one of those people that you've argued with that about in the past if that's what they meant by belief {and don't say faith, because they will probably say no due to the religious connotations) before you try and tell me that you know what someone meant by a word better than me when they were using it on the same side, in the same freaking argument you keep dragging me into.

Last edited by almightywood; 02-03-2012 at 10:24 AM.
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Old 02-03-2012, 10:42 AM   #403
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Re: Us government's trick to violate civil liberties

Quote:
Originally Posted by almightywood View Post
Well that's a load of shit, I hardly ever choose sides on anything, especially upon first hearing it.
Yes you do, because you're still human as far as I know. One might later change that option, but s/he still makes it because it's perfectly natural. Humans always choose sides on things that matter to them, you're just too much of a pussy to be identified with anything.

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There are no neutral parties in politics because joining a party is showing an interest and is therefore the opposite of neutrality, not a good example.
Wow, you're stupid. You have various right wing mentalities and parties, same thing with the left wing, by your logic there should be a neutral fence, right? There isn't, simple as that. Same thing goes for theism vs atheism.

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If it doesn't recognize where the middle is, they I don't care how many different variations of right and left it has, it is not as versatile as the one that does recognize the middle.
I could easily deflect that back at you, if yours doesn't recognize the variations within the spectrum, then why bother with a middle that probably doesn't exist anyway? At least there's quantifiable proof I can obtain more qualitative terms for the (non) belief of God with my understanding than you with yours.

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The hell I am, the hell it is, the word doesn't apply due to connotations it possesses while belief does in fact possess those connotations for more than just me
Prove that faith does not apply and prove that anyone but you in this thread gives that connotation to belief. Hint: don't bother with theological faith, because as I just did, you can pretty much exclude it using proper English.

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See here you go again thinking that you can make up some random stupid shit in an example of what my words entail, or some random stupid shit to try and correct an analogy that I threw out there. Well guess what, if you have trouble grasping what the other person is saying, there's no way in hell any analogy you come up with about what the person is saying could fit.
You'd be wiser to dodge it, but you did exactly what I thought you would do and that is proving my point. Thank you very much.

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Whatever, go ask one of those people that you've argued with that about in the past if that's what they meant by belief {and don't say faith, because they will probably say no due to the religious connotations) before you try and tell me that you know what someone meant by a word better than me when they were using it on the same side, in the same freaking argument you keep dragging me into.
Wow, you're stupid. I know they meant it as belief by the dictionary because they tried to rationalize their beliefs, something someone that was meaning your version of belief (which is faith but you're so stupid you can't tell it apart from theological faith) wouldn't do because it already excludes rationalization.

Also, isn't it rude of you speaking of other people like you knew exactly what they were talking about even if you have no clue whatsoever what was said or not? Trust me, you're a special kind of stupid, so there's no relation whatsoever of what you say and what they said.
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Old 02-03-2012, 11:24 AM   #404
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Re: Us government's trick to violate civil liberties

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Originally Posted by Numinous View Post
Yes you do, because you're still human as far as I know. One might later change that option, but s/he still makes it because it's perfectly natural. Humans always choose sides on things that matter to them, you're just too much of a pussy to be identified with anything.
Well in that case I know that you actually prefer eating shit to food, as evidenced by how much of it comes out of your mouth. Don't fucking try and tell me that you know what someone is thinking better than them when you have yet to agree on a single thing.



Quote:
Wow, you're stupid. You have various right wing mentalities and parties, same thing with the left wing, by your logic there should be a neutral fence, right? There isn't, simple as that. Same thing goes for theism vs atheism.
Atheist is anti god, agnostic is pro god, I am neither. If you say 'I'm neutral" when it comes to politics that is acceptable. Joining a party is the opposite of neutral. That's probably why there is no actual term for my religious stance either. One of these days you'll get sick of trying to shove your inadequate viewpoint down my throat I swear it.



Quote:
I could easily deflect that back at you, if yours doesn't recognize the variations within the spectrum, then why bother with a middle that probably doesn't exist anyway? At least there's quantifiable proof I can obtain more qualitative terms for the (non) belief of God with my understanding than you with yours.
Okay so yours is more versatile within a narrower subset.
You have varying tints of red and blue. Mine has red, blue, and yellow, but only varying tints of blue.



Quote:
Prove that faith does not apply and prove that anyone but you in this thread gives that connotation to belief. Hint: don't bother with theological faith, because as I just did, you can pretty much exclude it using proper English.
Get out of here with your asinine demands. I already told you why faith doesn't apply jackass, you can accept it or not, but nothing you say will ever change the fact that it doesn't apply,. Your exclusions don't make any difference when dealing with MY philosophy, I have never deigned to make any comments on your philosophies and will never do so, so any conversation you are ever having with me about this is solely about mine. The idea that you could possibly convince me that my viewpoint is wrong without first adopting it is asinine. Experience is the only thing that counts as proof of anything. You don't even know all of my philosophy so there's no way you could possibly have lived it. If you haven't lived it, you have no experience with it. You trying to tell me I'm wrong on anything is like someone who has no idea how to read telling an author what his words mean. It is purely asinine. Nothing you say could possibly be even applicable to the things that I have stated.



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You'd be wiser to dodge it, but you did exactly what I thought you would do and that is proving my point. Thank you very much.
Telling you that your analogies are not only inapplicable, but that you are incapable of making an applicable analogy due to lack of familiarity with the content is proof of what exactly? That you don't understand what I am talking about maybe, it surely is proof of nothing else.


Quote:
Wow, you're stupid. I know they meant it as belief by the dictionary because they tried to rationalize their beliefs, something someone that was meaning your version of belief (which is faith but you're so stupid you can't tell it apart from theological faith) wouldn't do because it already excludes rationalization.
What ever man, I don't believe you are capable of recognizing what people mean by things. hell you won't accept what people mean by things when they flat out tell you what the mean by things. This is just more of your pure bullshit to act superior and right.

Quote:
Also, isn't it rude of you speaking of other people like you knew exactly what they were talking about even if you have no clue whatsoever what was said or not? Trust me, you're a special kind of stupid, so there's no relation whatsoever of what you say and what they said.
Well you're pretty good at being rude so if you say so, I will take your word for it.

Last edited by almightywood; 02-03-2012 at 11:27 AM.
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Old 02-03-2012, 12:00 PM   #405
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Re: Us government's trick to violate civil liberties

You know, I had forgotten what this thread was all about, being titled "US government's trike to violate civil liberties" so I went back and read the first post. You know what?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously... speeding tickets are illegal? This guy, I tell you. Phew. Good one.

Numinous - Prophecies of Fire! NOW! I'm interested to hear (yet) another writer's opinion. I'll read your work in exchange.
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