Us government's trick to violate civil liberties - Page 32

**Miburo** · 02-06-2012, 12:04 PM

Eh, the least stupid things he posts could be considered platitudes. I guess I can give him that.

Edit: @Mal-I would guess the only way to view it without it being obviously immoral to most is that it simply describes the imperfectness of humans or some shit like that. Not us being boned because of what adam and eve did, bad tree bears bad fruit type of shit. Though, I'm think the whole thing is still kinda bullshit. Especially dislike the whole Jesus sacrifice thing. Seems like more of a guilt trip than anything. Definitely wasn't necessary, and kinda wasn't even much of a sacrifice.

I'd be interested in what that Lewis dude has to say on it. I really should just order that book, since you've mentioned it quite a few times. And Summer Glau likes the dude, and I've got a gay little crush thing for that babe still. Harhar! Just rewatched firefly again, wish they didn't cancel that shit.

I'm just pretty sure I'd still disagree with a lot of it. Christian theology discussions are things I'll entertain for the sake of discussion, but the whole lack of evidence thing makes it hard for me to take it seriously. I think Christians should just, you know, try to be emulate the good shit Jesus did and that's pretty much it. All the other shit is kinda unnecessary or pretty bad.

xxMESTxx · 02-06-2012, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numinous

Mars has large deposits of frozen water in its poles, Europa's surface is a 10~30 km layer of ice placed upon an submerged ocean, and many, many more instances of planets in outer space containing water.

A bit irrelevant now, but I thought I'd share anyways since I couldn't post at the time. http://www.fandom.com/forums/showthr...14#post2101514

**Mal** · 02-06-2012, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miburo

Edit: @Mal-I would guess the only way to view it without it being obviously immoral to most is that it simply describes the imperfectness of humans or some shit like that. Not us being boned because of what adam and eve did, bad tree bears bad fruit type of shit. Though, I'm think the whole thing is still kinda bullshit. Especially dislike the whole Jesus sacrifice thing. Seems like more of a guilt trip than anything. Definitely wasn't necessary, and kinda wasn't even much of a sacrifice.

I'd be interested in what that Lewis dude has to say on it. I really should just order that book, since you've mentioned it quite a few times. And Summer Glau likes the dude, and I've got a gay little crush thing for that babe still. Harhar! Just rewatched firefly again, wish they didn't cancel that shit.

I'm just pretty sure I'd still disagree with a lot of it. Christian theology discussions are things I'll entertain for the sake of discussion, but the whole lack of evidence thing makes it hard for me to take it seriously. I think Christians should just, you know, try to be emulate the good shit Jesus did and that's pretty much it. All the other shit is kinda unnecessary or pretty bad.

Do it

I wasn't able to find it, but from what I remember it was something along the lines of God "approaching" humanity when it had reached a certain point in cognitive evolution, but I'm really not doing it justice.

Also, I don't believe that we are "born into" sin, we are born with the ability to sin and just take care of the rest on our own once we reach some level of understanding.

Also also, Summer Glau <33333333333

**Miburo** · 02-06-2012, 07:18 PM

Alright, fine. Only because I have Prime. And only have that because I order tons heavy as fuck shit like kettle bells. Free 2 day shipping on a sixty pound cannon ball with a handle? Fuck yeah!

ask me anything · 02-06-2012, 07:53 PM

I believe this is what you're looking for.

usminc.org/images/MereChristianitybyCSLewis.pdf

**Mal** · 02-06-2012, 09:14 PM

Mere Christianity is the kind of book you should own a physical copy of, in my opinion.

Human Rasengan · 02-06-2012, 11:34 PM

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Originally Posted by Miburo

Kael's post fit perfectly into the context of that discussion too.

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It kinda did but we were talking about how if anything in the bible could support the theory of evolution or the big bang or whatever!

Don't be such a douchebag. Especially when you're being hardcore retarded and people are still engaging in discussions with you instead of simply (and justifiably) calling you an idiot and telling you to fuck off.

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I'm sorry I don't prescribe to your mode of beliefs and since you guys deem most religious beliefs retarded this is a battle I'm not going ot win anyway.. facts and figures are fine but those same facts and figures are available ot me as well and I STILL CHOOSE TO BELIEVE

Oh, and just for shits, it doesn't matter if it meant six days or six thousand years to go from nothing to human beings and animals and whatnot on the planet. Both are equally ridiculous.

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Which I already point out when i made the statement.. it's just a figure that the first Christians could wrap their head around.. remember they had to hear the shit first so if it wasn't something they could relate to then it's pointless

Besides, it makes no sense for the bible to call it a day and mean a day for God since the bible's target audience consists solely of people who see a day as the normal 24 hour day.

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Yet you must take into consideration that Moses was writing the book of genesis almost in dictation form of what God had told him .. In God's eye it only took him a day and then the verses I quoted in Peter tell us how long a day is to God.. it's a figurative number of 1000 years.. yes I'll give you the point that not everything is to be taken literal.. the bible is full of allegory , parables and the like .. take the kingdom of heaven being 144,000.. surely of the Billions of people on the planet there have to be more than 144,000 righteous over the course of humanity

It's not like that shit was written for God to read, if it meant thousands of years then logically God would have had them write it took thousands of years, assuming he's not an incompetent retard.

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which he's not but I've already explained this part above

It also makes no sense to suggest it wasn't meant to be taken literally since what would the fucking point be in that story otherwise?

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to tell the origin of the earth in short hand.. I mean seriously it took the earth and life forms to populate the earth millions of years.. you think Moses would have had time to write all that shit down.. no.. so god gave him the shorthand version with the important shit

The only way that creation story makes sense is if you consider it some bullshit story made up by ignorant barbaric sand people. And then say God is the one who just put the big bang into motion.

yes to the highlighted part

[QUOTE=Numinous;2101492]Sorry, did you even read what I wrote?

I did not mention in any way translations,

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that part didn't matter the example was to show that those 6 days were more than 6 days .. they were thousands -millions of years .. and the translations i provided show that God doesn't go through the time stream same as us.. if you live to be 200 years old your lifespan would be a millisecond in God's eyes

Omnipotent means all-powerful. An all-knowing god is omniscient. Since he's described as capable of anything, why would he need time? A wiggle of the nose and voilà, evolution. Or do you have evidence of God needing enormous quantities of time to do anything (outside of warnings like the Flood or the smiting of Gomorrah and Sodom)? I'm all ears for that.

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The better question is where do you get the idea of God being Samantha from bewitched.. no where int the bible does god do anything instantaneous.. look how long it took him to fulfill his promises to Jacob (Israel) David Isaiah ect.. he took his sweet time doing so.. He told Abraham and Sarai that they would have a child and damn near 60 years later he got around to it.. God isn't some fuckin sky giant .. the bible describes him with human features so he has two eyes 2 ears 1 nose 2 hands 2 feet and looks like a man ..he would have to have this image if we were molded after it.. God also displays Human like emotions Wrath compassion, anger, love ect.. where do you think we get it from.. the being after which we were molded

If you were a carpenter you'd be all knowing in the field of carpentry and have all the power to build that house.. but it doesn't mean you can speed through it now does it.. See the thing about the bible and it's parables can be explained with the quote Knock and it shall be opened seek and ye shall find.. the answers are there but as a non believer you dont see them

Of course it does, because you say trees (and bird). I didn't just say trees, I said fruit-bearing trees (like the Bible does... and I did not mention birds in the trees part).

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if the trees had no fruits and seeds how would htey produce more after their kind?.. what was he to do unleash the animals and then let them eat all the shit up?

Fishes first appeared in the Ordovician, 450+ millions of years ago. Fruit-bearing plants (angiosperms), only appeared in the Early Cretaceous, 140+ millions of years ago. A 300+ million years difference is quite a lot.

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And the bible said there were fishes then birds here lets look
Genesis 1:3–2:3
Opening: "In the beginning...".[Gen 1:1]
First day: Light is commanded to appear ("Let there be light!") The light is divided from the darkness, and they are named "day" and "night".[Gen 1:3]
Second day: God makes a firmament ("Let a firmament be...!")—the second command—to divide the waters above from the waters below. The firmament is named "skies".[Gen 1:6–7]
Third day: God commands the waters below to be gathered together in one place, and dry land to appear

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menaing the world was all water

(the third command)."earth" and "sea" are named. God commands the earth to bring forth grass, plants, and fruit-bearing trees (the fourth command).[Gen 1:9–10]
Fourth day: God puts lights in the firmament (the fifth command) to separate light from darkness and to mark days, seasons and years. Two great lights are made to appear (most likely the Sun and Moon, but not named), and the stars.[Gen 1:14–15]

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he makes light so the creatures he creates can find food

Fifth day: God commands the sea to "teem with living creatures", and birds to fly across the heavens (sixth command) He creates birds and sea creatures, and commands them to be fruitful and multiply.[Gen 1:20–21]

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this goes with the evolution thing of creatures emerging fro the water

Sixth day: God commands the land to bring forth living creatures (seventh command);[Gen 1:24–25] He makes wild beasts, livestock and reptiles. He then creates humanity in His "image" and "likeness" (eighth command). They are commanded to "be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it." The totality of creation is described by God as "very good."[Gen 1:26–28]
Seventh day: "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them." God, having completed the heavens and the earth, rests from His work, and blesses and sanctifies the seventh day.[Gen 2:1–3]

See he made the waters receed then put fish n birds down the food is there for the land creatures then the fish n birds evolve into more complex beasts
Hummm...

Well, still doesn't explain why you quoted the Hebrew just to slaughter it, but let's go back to good old evolution, shall we?

The Aves class (birds) first appeared in the Late Jurassic, 150 millions of years ago, so, trusting the bible, the last of the Pisces paraphyletic group that can be considered an ancestor should be at least near in the time scale to put them in the same verse, right? Hummm, the first tetrapods, the Superclass of animals (which includes Aves) with a cranium that doesn't belong to the Pisces group, appeared 360+ million of years ago, in the Middle Devonian. I think that 200 million years is still a fuckload of time of difference, don't you?

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yes but still the fish came first then the birds so where is hte contradiction.. what you seem to be hung up on is the amount of time and that was explained in Peter that these days are not to be taken literal but as large expanses of time

Human Rasengan · 02-06-2012, 11:36 PM

post count limit reach so cont... here

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Originally Posted by Numinous

Hint: Tetrapods are land beasts, which is funny since the Bible puts them AFTER birds.

Funny how fossils/coprolite suggest that early birds predated on smaller reptiles and/or were omnivorous, being fishes added much later to the diet of bird species.

But those modern paleontologists are just silly and the word of a 2600+ years-old verse is correct, amirite?

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No but I'm sure you know what the word create means.. I can create a cake from flour eggs sugar n shit and god can make the earth form existing material in the universe right... he is all powerful.. who's to say that those fossils weren't from some other old planet and he took what was there and formed the earth.. remember mass and energy can't be created or destroyed only transformed.. so he took what was available and transformed it into the earth.. and those bits of rocks may be have already had fossils in them that pre-date the formation of our planet.. not my belief but it's a possibility to consider

Mars has large deposits of frozen water in its poles, Europa's surface is a 10~30 km layer of ice placed upon an submerged ocean, and many, many more instances of planets in outer space containing water. Not that I'm validating the verse that mentions said water, I'm just correcting your statement.

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and yet the scriptures don't mention shit about outer space .. just what happens on this planet so talk baout space wouldn't matter .. if space was a concept back then .. that would mean the fields of astronomy and such would have advanced long ago

No, outer space.

Wow, you're stupid. He can't prove that because life itself emerged from the seas, so you're asking the impossible. The truth is, the Bible says water came to be before land on Earth, which is demonstrably false.

I'm not seeing the difference in the water being the primordial soup and "teeming with life" and the fishes and birds being created in the same day(*millions of years) for the sea creatures to emerge on to the land that had newely appeared .. no need for legs if there's nothing to walk on.. so they evolved legs n shit and when the next day(millions of years came the new land creatures had food in the form of those seed bearing fruit trees)

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Originally Posted by ACt

Exactly, guys. The bible sets down an ambiguous and undetailed version of how the earth and heavens were made that it completely COULD have happened so long as we fill in the huge gaps that left unknown because "god did it."

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nothing wrong with filling in the gaps.. if every single aspect of creation was included no one would own a bible .. we'd have used up most of the trees to make the book

Oh, and alter our definition of days.

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no get an understanding of the fact that God doesn't work on a 24 hour cycle as we do for fucks sake.. the greeks had the olympics every for years because for them a year was just one olympiad when 4 made the full cycle for them .. which is cool cause it eliminates the need for a leap year with that 1/4th of a day that left

So the bible isn't 100% wrong, it is just ambiguous, vague, empty, evidenceless, weakly supported and offers no real reasoning to the how we came to be. Not impossible by any stretch. Oh, and "god did it" so shut your pie holes.

Is there a sarcasm font?

at the highlighted part yes but you have ot remember the people of that time didn't need to focus on the specifics they needed to get the overall message.. this is how shit started.. In revelations weird shit is described that seems fanciful but if you look at some prophecies.. for instance the 2 slain prophets and the whole world witnessing.. I'm sure back then people would have thought that everyone on earth would be gathered around to witness it .. but today since the revelation was about the future one can deduce that this event would be broadcast on television and the internet thus allowing everyone to witness the event.. .. you have to remember shit was explained to a damn near primitive people

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numinous

When it's pushed down the throats of students as science when it's precisely the opposite and thousands of dollars are spent in trials just to tell again and again creationists that they're full of shit, I say it fucking needs details that don't contradict reality.

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Well that's wrong .. nobody can be forced into believing .. it's just left over bullshit form history.. that shit needs to stop.. the best thing a believer can do is live righteously and set an example and when others see the joy and comfort they will naturally come.. at least thats what happened to me

I'm sure there will be some rebuttla with facts and figures but as long as some keep thing s in context I'll be glad to keep things going I'm actually enjoying the conversation and seeing how the other half views things only helps broaden my understanding

**Miburo** · 02-07-2012, 12:30 AM

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Originally Posted by Human Rasengan

Yet you must take into consideration that Moses was writing the book of genesis almost in dictation form of what God had told him .. In God's eye it only took him a day and then the verses I quoted in Peter tell us how long a day is to God.. it's a figurative number of 1000 years..

it's just a figure that the first Christians could wrap their head around.. remember they had to hear the shit first so if it wasn't something they could relate to then it's pointless

Okay, so you're saying that God, the magic creature thing that can handle creating something as complex as the goddamn universe, isn't smart enough to figure out a way to get some ancient sand man to write down something that would make logical sense to people a mere couple thousand years after the fact. All because apparently ancient sand barbarians couldn't grasp the concept of anything taking over a thousand years, give or take.

That makes perfect sense, HR, and totally isn't completely fucking retarded. Thanks the for enlightening conversation. Glad we had this talk.

But seriously, learn to fucking quote shit like a normal person. It's like you try to do literally everything the dumbest way possible. I wouldn't be surprised if you type this shit out using drumsticks on your keyboard while wearing your jeans as some sort of sleeve belly shirt thing. That's seriously how retarded I picture you being in my head. Holy fucking shit.

almightywood · 02-07-2012, 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kael03

The Earth has always held the same orbit around the sun, as this location is where the molecules of the solar nebula condensed when the gravitational anomaly that was the primordial sun formed. Our orbit hasn't fluctuated.

As for our day rotations, the planet's earliest rotations were fast enough that the day/night cycle was theorized to be about 6 hours in length around the time of the impact that created the moon. The moon's pull on the planet is what start slowing our rotation down. However, this does NOT give excuse for the giant glaring disparity of "6000 years", since the bible states that a day is like 1000 years in the eye of God, and 10-20 million years in the formation of the plant.

Prove it.
Our planet could just as easily have been not part of the solar system initially and got hooked into orbit by the sun's gravity. The Earth could easily have been rotating slower to begin with and sped up, we have no way of knowing such things, you fucking know-it-all. Prove it's impossible before you say something's false or you're just being an idiot, period.

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No, you were specific with the term "language". Here, a little refresher:

If you were talking about conveying information, you would've used a different terminology than "language". Even with your whole "see the forest for the trees" analogy, that failed miserably. Sorry, but you failed at English on this one.

You mean you proved that you have trouble grasping what people say again.

Have you never heard someone say something to the effect of 'you go talk to them, you speak their language' even though they all spoke English? It's pretty fucking common, so you damn well should have.

I personally think you are an idiot because I've never once seen you grasp anything that anyone's said that hasn't already been stated by tons of people. In other words, if it isn't the majority opinion it's outside your ken, so quit acting like you know what's what, when you obviously only know what you've been told.

Human Rasengan · 02-07-2012, 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miburo

Okay, so you're saying that God, the magic creature thing that can handle creating something as complex as the goddamn universe, isn't smart enough to figure out a way to get some ancient sand man to write down something that would make logical sense to people a mere couple thousand years after the fact. All because apparently ancient sand barbarians couldn't grasp the concept of anything taking over a thousand years, give or take.

That makes perfect sense, HR, and totally isn't completely fucking retarded. Thanks the for enlightening conversation. Glad we had this talk.

First and foremost you have ot understand the Nature of God.. he has a contract with humans called Free agency.. or free will and doesn't interfere with it .. he can nudge you in a direction but he will never force your hand.. if he did what yo're talking about he could just create all mankind to love him and obey him perfectly and then we all get to heaven but he allows us to make a choice.

Now back to the explanation.. You already deem these primitive sand people as you put it as a bunch of dumb fucks.. and just like you deal with retards on here you don't express shit in a form that they don't understand (i.e. talking over their head) if you want them to understand shit.. so God knowing these primitive people wouldn't have a grasp of understanding of shit took the simplest rout.. ** these people were fashioning golden cows and making Gods to worship.. how retarded is that .. believers look upon it with disdain same way you guys look down on believers**

Also WTF you talking bout willis.. The text was written plain enough that it could be understood by those primitive people and also contain enough hidden insight that even modern man would still find new shit in what he wrote .. once again look to the book of Revelations with the talk of these beasts and Isaiah's wheel within a wheel, or talk of giant white birds that roar.. the last one would sound like a mythical creature but people today can put two n two together and realize their talking about a fuckin jumbo airplane

and on the theme of the primitive people and the time frame .. these people weren't living that long.. seriously if you reached 30 you were a geezer .. so a 100 years was something unfathomable to most who would come across the information and before you get int to the Methuselah shit he was in the story before Moses and he was lucky to live as long as he did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kael03

An idiot, you are.

The Earth has always held the same orbit around the sun, as this location is where the molecules of the solar nebula condensed when the gravitational anomaly that was the primordial sun formed. Our orbit hasn't fluctuated.

Hmm like Aw sad prove it the fact that the earth goes through procession and is slowing down over time tells me that the earth might have had a different orbit back in it's faster days.. if it has always been the same .. why is it slowing down now?

stubborn_d0nkey · 02-07-2012, 05:33 AM

Sometimes HR's posts are like some really shitty movies, you know they are awful, but if you don't take them seriously they're somehow entertaining.

almightywood · 02-07-2012, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACt

I'm going to go with an irrational fear of being wrong. He'll probably tell us that's incorrect but provide no reason why, which is an inherit trait of said fear. Always tell others what it isn't and never what it is thus preventing you from ever truly saying something incorrect.

I never told anyone what anything isn't, merely what it isn't not.

I only don't tell people specifics of things that ARE obsessed with being right and wrong - in other words you all. Right and Wrong as you guys understand them are BS concepts to begin with since you don't take universal truth into account when you use the words.

I could care less about being right or wrong, I just find the very idea of applying said thing to a conversation along these lines foolish. I never learn anything from discussions of this type that flow that way, they always just devolve into petty squabbling.

***Demi-God*** · 02-07-2012, 07:30 AM

Can we debate Harry Potter next? I want to know if the Dementors are real so I can sleep easier at night.

Also, I lol'd at:

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...giant white birds that roar.. the last one would sound like a mythical creature but people today can put two n two together and realize their talking about a fuckin jumbo airplane

**Miburo** · 02-07-2012, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Human Rasengan

First and foremost you have ot understand the Nature of God.. he has a contract with humans called Free agency.. or free will and doesn't interfere with it .. he can nudge you in a direction but he will never force your hand.. if he did what yo're talking about he could just create all mankind to love him and obey him perfectly and then we all get to heaven but he allows us to make a choice.

Now back to the explanation.. You already deem these primitive sand people as you put it as a bunch of dumb fucks.. and just like you deal with retards on here you don't express shit in a form that they don't understand (i.e. talking over their head) if you want them to understand shit.. so God knowing these primitive people wouldn't have a grasp of understanding of shit took the simplest rout.. ** these people were fashioning golden cows and making Gods to worship.. how retarded is that .. believers look upon it with disdain same way you guys look down on believers**

That has nothing to do with God being able to communicate with someone in such a way that allows that person to write shit down that would make logical sense to people a couple thousand years later.

So you're suggesting that God decided to cater to those ancient sand barbarians and wasn't able to anticipate people in our time reading the same shit and seeing that it obviously contradicts what actually happened? Again, that seems pretty uncharacteristic of a being that was able to create the goddamn universe. Oh, and you're definitely not in any position to call golden cow worshipers or anyone who 'makes gods to worship' retarded. Like your beliefs are any better.

At least you didn't post shit inside of quotes. So props for that, I suppose.

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Hmm like Aw sad prove it the fact that the earth goes through procession and is slowing down over time tells me that the earth might have had a different orbit back in it's faster days.. if it has always been the same .. why is it slowing down now?

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Originally Posted by almightywood

Prove it.
Our planet could just as easily have been not part of the solar system initially and got hooked into orbit by the sun's gravity. The Earth could easily have been rotating slower to begin with and sped up, we have no way of knowing such things, you fucking know-it-all. Prove it's impossible before you say something's false or you're just being an idiot, period.

Oh hey, look. Both of these guys agree that someone should be proving a negative, meaning they both have no clue how the burden of proof works. What a surprise.

02-06-2012, 12:04 PM	#466
Miburo Deos Fortioribus Adesse Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Valhalla Posts: 3,543 Thanks: 34,417 Thanked 17,643 Times in 5,442 Posts	Re: Us government's trick to violate civil liberties Eh, the least stupid things he posts could be considered platitudes. I guess I can give him that. Edit: @Mal-I would guess the only way to view it without it being obviously immoral to most is that it simply describes the imperfectness of humans or some shit like that. Not us being boned because of what adam and eve did, bad tree bears bad fruit type of shit. Though, I'm think the whole thing is still kinda bullshit. Especially dislike the whole Jesus sacrifice thing. Seems like more of a guilt trip than anything. Definitely wasn't necessary, and kinda wasn't even much of a sacrifice. I'd be interested in what that Lewis dude has to say on it. I really should just order that book, since you've mentioned it quite a few times. And Summer Glau likes the dude, and I've got a gay little crush thing for that babe still. Harhar! Just rewatched firefly again, wish they didn't cancel that shit. I'm just pretty sure I'd still disagree with a lot of it. Christian theology discussions are things I'll entertain for the sake of discussion, but the whole lack of evidence thing makes it hard for me to take it seriously. I think Christians should just, you know, try to be emulate the good shit Jesus did and that's pretty much it. All the other shit is kinda unnecessary or pretty bad. Last edited by Miburo; 02-06-2012 at 12:32 PM.

02-06-2012, 07:18 PM	#469
Miburo Deos Fortioribus Adesse Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Valhalla Posts: 3,543 Thanks: 34,417 Thanked 17,643 Times in 5,442 Posts	Re: Us government's trick to violate civil liberties Alright, fine. Only because I have Prime. And only have that because I order tons heavy as fuck shit like kettle bells. Free 2 day shipping on a sixty pound cannon ball with a handle? Fuck yeah!

02-06-2012, 07:53 PM	#470
ask me anything Simply AMAzing Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Impel Down Posts: 3,052 Thanks: 8,821 Thanked 3,361 Times in 1,497 Posts	Re: Us government's trick to violate civil liberties I believe this is what you're looking for. usminc.org/images/MereChristianitybyCSLewis.pdf Last edited by ask me anything; 02-06-2012 at 07:56 PM.

02-06-2012, 09:14 PM	#471
Mal Scotch Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,101 Thanks: 12,855 Thanked 10,825 Times in 3,840 Posts	Re: Us government's trick to violate civil liberties Mere Christianity is the kind of book you should own a physical copy of, in my opinion.

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