Naruto 581 - Page 10

jekyl_hyde · 04-05-2012, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xxMESTxx

He just used nature to his advantage, which is nowhere near the same.

How in the hell is that not manipulating nature/natural energy.

He used so many fire jutsus to cause an air pressure and temperature change in the skies, creating thunder clouds, that produce lightning, and then he controlled that lightning.

I'll give you that it is not senjutsu in any form that has been defined thus far in this manga, but Sasuke did manipulate nature/natural energy.

stubborn_d0nkey · 04-06-2012, 12:30 AM

^Take out the /natural energy in your claims and it's passable. Don't piggyback it onto something that makes sense. This isn't DC.

Emissary of Justice · 04-06-2012, 02:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Special One

Just because Sasuke's style doesn't exactly mimic Orochimaru's, doesn't mean a lot of the attributes that he possessed in Part 2 wasn't a direct result of Orochimaru's tutelage. Orochimaru was Sarutobi's prized pupil, yet Orochimaru and Sarutobi share little to nothing in common in terms of fighting styles. I suppose it was more about maximizing emphasis on what the student was good at.

We only got to see Sarutobi fight once and in that situation, he was forced to sacrifice his life almost immediately to end the fight for Konoha's sake. So, there's no telling how much he learned from Hiruzen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Special One

For example, Orochimaru wanted Sasuke's reflexes sharp, what better way to hone his sharingan then by having Sasuke face 1000 plus shinobi. Surviving that ordeal was an invaluable experience I bet. Sasuke also relied a lot on the cursed seal (so, almost like a Sage Mode) for a good portion of Part 2. What's to say Sasuke's aptitude in that wasn't a direct result of Orochimaru's meddling? Right after Sasuke obtained Mangekyou, he spammed the shit out of it. Makes sense I guess, a lot of the power (cursed seal) that got him up to that point was stripped away, so he had to relearn how to fight with a new power.

I know what Orochimaru did for him and picked my words wisely for that reason. The post I made after yours, I had been typing up in my spare time while doing other things. The 1000 shinobi battle wasn't quite something Sasuke survived so much as he oblitterated. He didn't have a scratch on him and that was while intentionally avoiding killing any of them. Sasuke had gained control of the Level Two Curse Mark against Naruto at the VotE, before even going to Oro, which matched Naruto's one-tailed form. It had nothing on Sage Mode. ALL of Oro's power and the cursed seal were stripped away when Itachi sealed him up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-man123

summoning jutsu is A rank

The official Databook does not agree with you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jekyl_hyde

With Kirin, Sasuke makes the conditions.

Not entirely.

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v43/c391/5.html

Sasuke needed an Amaterasu forrest fire and 2-3 Great Dragon Fires.

xxMESTxx · 04-06-2012, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jekyl_hyde

How in the hell is that not manipulating nature/natural energy.

Because he's not actually manipulating natural energy anywhere in that.

Quote:

He used so many fire jutsus to cause an air pressure and temperature change in the skies, creating thunder clouds, that produce lightning, and then he controlled that lightning.

This is what I meant by using it to his advantage. He knew which natural reactions would take place when he was shooting off his fire jutsu, he used that to his advantage.

Quote:

I'll give you that it is not senjutsu in any form that has been defined thus far in this manga, but Sasuke did manipulate nature/natural energy.

No, he really didn't.

Numinous · 04-06-2012, 08:57 AM

Jekyl_hide, natural energy =/= natural physics.

Natural energy is akin to chakra, but, instead of being corporeal, it is latent in nature. That's why it requires absorption and control of natural energy to use it, because you're adding a third element of chakra in someone's body (the other two are physical and spiritual energies).

Did any of the procedures Sasuke made use natural energy? No, he had to spend his own chakra to create the conditions for thunder clouds (Amaterasu also helped) and then just used raiton to execute Kirin. No natural energy was required, since an heated up atmosphere forming thunder clouds already happens in real life.

Oh and looksy, another white knight thanking someone judging others with baseless claims and insults (and doesn't know what conjure and unpopular mean and confuses them for summon and ill-received). Got to love their double standards.

jekyl_hyde · 04-06-2012, 09:22 AM

No, lightning is natural energy. It's also a part of nature. It produces heat, voltage, and amps... all measurements of energy, and natural energy at that.

When Sasuke created the conditions for the lightning, and then controlled the damn thing, that's manipulation.

physics = energy

What the hell do you think physics is... the study energy in laymen's terms.

ExplosiveArt · 04-06-2012, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiegel

Let's simply recognize Izanagi and Izanami for what they are, plot devices to further enhance the Uchiha. Nuff said. We should realize that Kishi is always going to do shit like this when the time comes and we should be able to easily predict what it is and when its coming. The simple fact that KYF has been correct on two of his theories twice in a row is evidence enough. Why are some people making a big deal about this? Who the hell knows.

While it is true that they are plot devices, where does EMS fit into all of this? So far we haven't seen EMS power unleashed by anyone in this manga.

Numinous · 04-06-2012, 09:44 AM

Quote:

No, lightning is natural energy. It's also a part of nature. It produces heat, voltage, and amps... all measurements of energy, and natural energy at that.

When Sasuke created the conditions for the lightning, and then controlled the damn thing, that's manipulation.

physics = energy

What the hell do you think physics is... the study energy in laymen's terms.

I'll be more obvious: Natural energy =/= energy found in nature. All natural energy is energy found in nature, but not all energy found in nature is natural energy.

If you still don't find the difference, natural energy has a specific form that allows it to meld with chakra (so it might have similar properties), while energy found in nature has various forms (heat, chemical bonds, electricity, radiation, magnetism, traction, gravity, light, etc).

For example, Sasuke profited on energy in the form of heat to generate energy in the form of electricity. Neither of them are natural energy, but are forms of energy found in nature.

Is this clear enough?

Edit: and physics is the study of natural phenomena related to matter and energy, not just energy.

jekyl_hyde · 04-06-2012, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numinous

Is this clear enough?

Simply, no.

I do get what you are saying, and I agree to the part of how not all energy is natural energy.

But heat from a fire is natural energy, regardless of how the fire was created. Electricity from a lightning bolt is natural energy.

In the form of senjutsu, not natural energy.

And let me clarify myself. I said that Sasuke was using nature/natural energy, because fire and lightning are elements of nature and the energy produced by nature. I seriously doubt Sasuke becomes any sage whatsoever.

Numinous · 04-06-2012, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jekyl_hyde

And let me clarify myself. I said that Sasuke was using nature/natural energy, because fire and lightning are elements of nature and the energy produced by nature. I seriously doubt Sasuke becomes any sage whatsoever.

I know you aren't claiming Sasuke will be a sage, but your description of what natural energy is does not correspond with mine (and mest's and SD's).

If heat and electricity can be considered natural energy, then all Katon and Raiton users are able to use natural energy. By my understanding of what natural energy is, that would mean they're practicing senjutsu because they're adding natural energy to their jutsu, which doesn't happen. It is simply the manipulation of the nature of the energy, going from chakra (the mix of physical and spiritual energy) to another form of energy (heat for Katon, electricity for Raiton).

Natural energy (again, by my understanding) is a subform of energy found in nature that sages (and Juugo's clan) can harness and by logic it could be used along with heat and electricity. Although such was never verified, we know that two or more forms of energy can be combined in the Narutoverse, so it could happen.

jekyl_hyde · 04-06-2012, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numinous

I know you aren't claiming Sasuke will be a sage, but your description of what natural energy is does not correspond with mine (and mest's and SD's).

If heat and electricity can be considered natural energy, then all Katon and Raiton users are able to use natural energy. By my understanding of what natural energy is, that would mean they're practicing senjutsu because they're adding natural energy to their jutsu, which doesn't happen. It is simply the manipulation of the nature of the energy, going from chakra (the mix of physical and spiritual energy) to another form of energy (heat for Katon, electricity for Raiton).

Natural energy (again, by my understanding) is a subform of energy found in nature that sages (and Juugo's clan) can harness and by logic it could be used along with heat and electricity. Although such was never verified, we know that two or more forms of energy can be combined in the Narutoverse, so it could happen.

I get what you are saying. We're just on different wavelengths, that is all.

My point is that in that fight, (if memory serves me correct) Sasuke states he was out of chakra, yet he still used kirin.

Now, without Kishi developing this story more, this small bit of evidence would lead me to believe that fuuton and katon users would be able to use the natural states of their elements and control assuming they had mastered that. This opens a whole can of worms, because what about doton and suiton users. Now we're getting into Avatar: The Last Airbender stuff.

I wouldn't have made that statement or used the thought process I have used had it not been stated/implied that Sasuke was out of chakra before he used kirin.

Numinous · 04-06-2012, 12:22 PM

Quote:

I get what you are saying. We're just on different wavelengths, that is all.

My point is that in that fight, (if memory serves me correct) Sasuke states he was out of chakra, yet he still used kirin.

Ah, I see where the confusion comes from. He (and Itachi) were figuratively speaking, as in Sasuke had very low amounts of chakra. If he literally was out of chakra, he'd die (like Kakashi did).

And, if I remember correctly, the Third Databook says that Kirin requires very little chakra, since it just needs to be shaped and directed at the target (instead of having to form the chakra volume, convert it to electricity via Raiton, shape it and direct it), so Sasuke could pull it off without any third source of energy (as in Natural energy).

Hope that clears up the confusion.

The Special One · 04-06-2012, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emissary of Justice

I know what Orochimaru did for him and picked my words wisely for that reason. The post I made after yours, I had been typing up in my spare time while doing other things. The 1000 shinobi battle wasn't quite something Sasuke survived so much as he oblitterated. He didn't have a scratch on him and that was while intentionally avoiding killing any of them. Sasuke had gained control of the Level Two Curse Mark against Naruto at the VotE, before even going to Oro, which matched Naruto's one-tailed form. It had nothing on Sage Mode. ALL of Oro's power and the cursed seal were stripped away when Itachi sealed him up.

Yes, but how was Sasuke able to obliterate 1000 or so shinobi? Orochimaru could have done this on occasion for Sasuke in preparation of preparing Sasuke's body for him.. Sasuke likely developed his own techniques under Orochimaru's tutelage, there's no proof that this isn't true, nor is it unlikely. Considering students don't always use signature techniques of their master. Look at Shikamaru, his skills are mostly clan based, but honing also must've came from Asuma.

Tmoore · 04-06-2012, 02:47 PM

if lightning is natural energy kakashi and all of the cloud nins introduced can enter sage mode then

Vishnu · 04-06-2012, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tmoore

if lightning is natural energy kakashi and all of the cloud nins introduced can enter sage mode then

There is a dfference between the Natural Energy and the energy that comes from the nature. A ninja with potent chakras can access the Natural Energy, thus becoming a Sage. The energy that comes from the nature it's not subject to augument powers. Anyway, Sasuke becaming a Sage...i don't think so. Kishi cannot simply give Sasuke the Sage Mode, because it requires a huge amount of time to be spent on training( that Sasuke lacks) and it's not necessary. Hell, we haven't seen yet what the EMS can really do and you guys already want Sasuke to be a Sage? Give him a rest, these are his first appearences in the manga from an absence of a year or so.

04-06-2012, 08:57 AM	#140
Numinous Writing speed: snail Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Porto, Portugal Posts: 4,885 Thanks: 8,505 Thanked 11,607 Times in 4,002 Posts	Re: Naruto 581 Jekyl_hide, natural energy =/= natural physics. Natural energy is akin to chakra, but, instead of being corporeal, it is latent in nature. That's why it requires absorption and control of natural energy to use it, because you're adding a third element of chakra in someone's body (the other two are physical and spiritual energies). Did any of the procedures Sasuke made use natural energy? No, he had to spend his own chakra to create the conditions for thunder clouds (Amaterasu also helped) and then just used raiton to execute Kirin. No natural energy was required, since an heated up atmosphere forming thunder clouds already happens in real life. Oh and looksy, another white knight thanking someone judging others with baseless claims and insults (and doesn't know what conjure and unpopular mean and confuses them for summon and ill-received). Got to love their double standards. __________________ My writings: Waters of Ocean Darkest Chapters: 1 - 2 Weaver Chapters: 0 - 1- 2 - 3 Björk Season My Top 25 Non-Romantic Songs

04-06-2012, 09:22 AM	#141
jekyl_hyde Hunter-Nin Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 1,022 Thanks: 612 Thanked 1,047 Times in 399 Posts	Re: Naruto 581 No, lightning is natural energy. It's also a part of nature. It produces heat, voltage, and amps... all measurements of energy, and natural energy at that. When Sasuke created the conditions for the lightning, and then controlled the damn thing, that's manipulation. physics = energy What the hell do you think physics is... the study energy in laymen's terms. Last edited by jekyl_hyde; 04-06-2012 at 09:28 AM.

04-06-2012, 02:47 PM	#149
Tmoore wandering analyst Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: houstatlantavegas Posts: 834 Thanks: 1,894 Thanked 468 Times in 238 Posts	Re: Naruto 581 if lightning is natural energy kakashi and all of the cloud nins introduced can enter sage mode then __________________

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