Vengeance

You said & I quote "most 3 year olds do not understand the concept of cooking.".

So me using a 3 year old as a reference is fine since you're the one who brought up that age.

Food is an easy concept for any child to understand. From the moment they're born they seek nourishment. If a baby doesn't understand the concept of I feel bad when I don't eat then that child will most likely starve.

Based on what?

& when that baby needs something like say food it would normally cry to get your attention correct? This shows that the baby understands that it is hungry & needs nourishment so it can feel better.

& they learn from that painful experience.

So why are you against the experience of pain? It's something every human being will eventually go through.

Which is my point she learned from her past mistake. You sheltering a child deprives them from fundamental learning experiences.

You're basing this on what exactly? You don't know a thing about me.

Like I said before...

"How exactly does this relate to things like gay sex(lust), idolizing mickey mouse(false idol), eating a piece of cake(gluttony), relaxing on a beach(sloth), wanting a new toy(greed), or wanting to have a bike like the kid next door(envy) exactly when these things won't necessarily cause harm to another? All of these things are considered sinful/immoral btw."

You let them live & learn while also teaching/guiding them throughout life.

What makes you think I don't?

I have a question for you since you're dodging most of my comments about god.

At what age should you teach a child about human anatomy & the proper word for penis & vagina?

PS: Since your baby is what 1 years old(?) you actually don't have the slightest clue on what actual parenting is if that's all you're going on.

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AOTKorby

No sir, you're proving that you're an incompetent fuck of a parent AND you can't tell the difference between minor punishment to teach a lesson and eternal damnation.

If you're actually asking yourself "do I let my kid hurt herself just to teach her a lesson?" you are a fucked up son of a bitch. Being overprotective is bad for a child but being flat-out negligent is a hundred times worse. Pretty much as Veng said, you have to let kids explore but you also have to be there to keep them from really endangering themselves. If your kid is less than 2 years old there's no goddamn reason you should be taking your eyes off her, let alone sitting there like a jackass asking yourself "should I try to keep her away from the oven or should I just let her severely burn herself and learn a life lesson the hard way?"

And honestly, there's a hell of a difference between the idea of parenting a child and a God who creates sinners and punishes them for sinning. Parenting is allowing your kid to play on the playground even if they might get hurt, but making sure they don't hurt anyone else or themselves too badly. Going back to the God example is like handing your kid a knife, telling him he can kill someone with it and how to do it, and then punishing the kid if he does it by killing him. Punishment is only supposed to exist to help people understand right and wrong based on consequences for their actions, not by making someone else an example to make other people afraid. And when someone is dead and damned, there's not really much they can do to learn from their mistakes and better themselves because hey, they're already in Hell forever.

Stop acting like you're some kind of great guru of parenting wisdom when you have less than two years of experience of the shit. I'm only 18 and dealing with my twin little brothers(6 yrs) gives me more experience than that for fuck's sake.

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jekyl_hyde

you're so full of yourself, it's disgusting.

1. I can tell you're not a parent, just by how you are approaching the topic.
2. The way you are approaching the topic is textbook parenting, nothing based on real life experience.
3. I'm married. I have a wife. Ever heard the saying: happy wife, happy life?
4. My daughter is almost 2. And yes, I do know what parenting is about. My daughter is not the first person who has been dependent on me for their livelihood and life. But for simplicity's sake, I'll just stick with my daughter. I want her to experience certain things and learn from them. But also, as a father, I do not want my child to feel pain. I know she must experience though to my char-grin. You are implying that you think every child should experience pain (which to me shows you lack that certain protective aspect that comes with fatherhood, that or you really don't care for the child's boo boos). I know that pain is going to come, because I'm not omnipresent. I can't protect her from everything. But as a toddler, by God, I'm going to protect her as much as possible. Once my wife and I have agreed to a point to let her burn herself, if she hasn't done so already, then we'll allow it to happen under our guidance.
5. You just do not get the correlation between parenthood and free will do you?

And finally, when it comes to God...
1. You teach and rear the child to become a respectable,upstanding human being.
2. While I will teach my children how they should lead their lives, they still have to make their own decisions when they are adults. As a parent, you give them the information, guide them how to make informed decisions, and trust they make the right decision.
3. Your examples for the deadly sins are laughable at best. You're basically saying that only by working and sleeping are you not sinning. God wants us to relax. He's going to give you what you need. Sometimes it is what you want, sometimes it's not. There is nothing wrong with wanting a new toy (or new vehicle for adults). When it becomes a sin is when you want a certain person's toy (or vehicle). There's nothing wrong with my daughter wanting a bike like our neighbor kid's (nor me wanting a suv like the one our neighbors have).

You come across in these posts as the typical "let's bash Christianity and show how ridiculous their livestyle is" asshole. And I know you like the asshole remark. You take pride in it. Otherwise you wouldn't be an ass to just about everyone on here.

I've disagreed with mest before. I was proven wrong. I said my bad. I can admit I'm wrong. You on the otherhand, I have not seen that on any thread that I have read here.

@aotkorby
you're just as clueless as veng. never claimed to be a guru. but i know a phony when I see one. and just like I said earlier, until you are a parent, you'll have no idea of the concept of free will, and what control you have over that for another.

Vengeance

Really now have you been paying attention to what you've been posting?

So proper parenting is textbook parenting?

What does this have to do with anything?

Actually my point is every child will eventually experience pain. There is no avoiding that fact. All you can do is give them the tools needed to avoid painful things & how to deal with them when they do happen.

So you're going to intentionally burn your daughter for the sake of teaching her a lesson? You do realize that's a form of child abuse right? You're totally warping the point I'm trying to make.

You do realize that parenthood isn't limited to hot stoves & broken fingers right? You do realize that the creator will kill people & condemn then to eternal torment if they don't listen to it right? Is that how you'll treat your daughter when she gets older & decides not to listen to you?

What does teaching a child to be a respectable human being have to do with god? O yeah nothing.

The problem you seem to not understand is that children will start making their own decisions long before they become adults. You're starting to sound like someone who plans on sheltering their child by home schooling & limiting/removing interaction they have with others until they turn 18 or something.

Which doesn't sound at all like what you've been saying. Since you seem to be implying that your child won't be capable of making proper decisions until they're 18.

That's basically it yes. During your downtime when you're not eating, working, sleeping, or teaching others you should be using your time to help your fellow man. Indulging in luxuries when you could be helping others is what allot of those sins are about.

God wants you to fear it & love it at the same time. Hence why I said it demonstrates signs of vanity & wrath/anger. The very things it's suppose to despise.

Thousands of people die everyday because they don't have the things they need to survive. Why does god ignore the majority of the earths population while favoring a select few who also happen to be some of the biggest sinners(according to the scriptures) there are?

According to the the scriptures it is. The act of wanting more is in itself greed.

That's labeled under envy not greed. Also there's nothing wrong with wanting what someone else has so long as you don't perform unlawful acts to get it. Like say if you want to buy a Porsche 911 Turbo because you saw your favorite actor driving one. You're then being envious but is that truly wrong? According to the scriptures it is.

Actually according to the scriptures you & your daughter are showing signs of envy.

I came across like that because it's mainly religious people who have a problem with gay marriage. Rational thinkers generally could care less about whether or not someone decides to get married.

PS: You didn't answer my question about human anatomy.

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Mal

jekyl_hyde, kindly shut the fuck up. You're an idiot and doing nothing but further damaging others' opinions of Christianity.


There is a significant difference between "promotes" and "contains stories about."


Ignore what jekyl_hyde had to say on this matter, that was merely twisting words to make it apply to what he wanted to say. In reality, Jesus did talk about homosexuality, but not specifically. The Hebrew word used when Jesus is talking about "sexual immorality" in the New Testament is an umbrella term that includes homosexuality. It is talked about, it is frowned upon, but it is not some terrible sin that is worse than all others as most Christians seem to think.

Homosexuality is no worse than jerking off thinking about that cute redhead at work, they're both sins by Biblical standards but neither affects anyone but yourself, so no one has any right to oppose someone who wants to do either. Further more, Jesus made it quite clear that while we may not agree with everything that other people do, we are to love them as ourselves.


This argument is bullshit, even from a Christian perspective. The only restrictions for sex to be "Biblically legit" is marriage, opposite sex, two people. God meant for sex to feel fucking fantastic and He's cool with you boning for funsies if you meet those requirements.


Why are you distinguishing between someone's urge to have a dick in his butt and someone's urge to have (consensual) sex with all the pretty ladies? Neither is worse than the other; they're both sins in God's eyes if acted out. Everyone except Jesus has urges to do things considered sinful, it's just how life is.

Again, don't let anyone tell you homosexuality is some outrageous sin, it's no better and no worse than even lying to your mom about having done your homework.

SirBenoit

Any crazy talk can promote and brainwash anyone.... Look at hitler, osama bin laden, you can take religion and spin it anyway you want. Doesnt mean that all muslims are terrorist, so dont lump all christians together.. This topic came up when 60% of nc voted against gay marriage. Does that mean that 60% of nc is white republican christians? no

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AOTKorby

I'm rather surprised this didn't get Hall of Fail'd.

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jekyl_hyde

it's funny how people who preach tolerance don't practice what they preach.

@mal
nice of you to give your input. but no, i will not shut up. veng and others are already set in their ways on their viewpoints on religion, regardless if it is Christianity or Islam. as far as gay marriage goes, all i have said is that i do not agree with it. there are a lot of people like that. doesn't necessarily mean i support that ammendment. hell, i even stated that i think the government should steer clear of marriage, and leave it to the religions.

just because i don't agree with gay marriage, doesn't mean i despise gay people. i've had gay people work under me, and a couple of them were my best workers. i don't have a problem with a gay person, as long as that is not how they identify themselves (think obnoxious gay). i've had a couple of gay friends, we'd go to a bar (not a gay bar, but a hole in the wall type of joint), have a beer, order some burgers and play billiards. we didn't talk about our sexuality. we talked about sports, religion, politics, work. that type of gay person, one who doesn't identify his/herself solely on their sexuality, that person is what i would call a cool gay person (like ellen degeneres).

and as far as homosexuality goes, you are right. no matter what sin it is, they are all the same. there are no tiered sins with God.

but your notion about sex, clearly stated in the Bible, the Torah, and Quran is to be between man and wife. Not just some hooking up with some girl if you are a guy, and vice versa for a girl.

and just so you know, the Bible says that Christians are in this world, not of it. Christians are to steer clear of sin, all sin.

@veng
you take the extremes in your argument/debate. when your mouth is parched, do you not want a drink of water (or other liquid beverage)? by your definition that falls under greed. that's not greed. if you want the new iphone that's coming out soon, not envy. there's nothing wrong in wanting something, as long as it does not... become an idol that you worship after (something that takes up all of your time).

also, i never said i would burn my daughter. i know i've said that i seriously doubt you're a parent, and your approach to parenting, i do not agree with, but can we at least agree that burning any child, for any reason, is highly inappropriate.

you took my example of free will to the extreme. i stated, do i let her burn herself and learn the lesson that hot things burn you, or do i protect her, and keep her shielded as long as possible. because at some point in time, she will burn herself somehow.

a common practice that is still practiced today in the amish community is letting a child touch something hot at an early age, so that lesson is taught at that early age. usually it is a hot pan, or some really hot food.

and as far as your question of the human anatomy... that's not brought up until she is at a mature age... unless her mother has a better idea of when to do so. so when it comes time for the talk (which is what i think you're getting at), i'm going to let my wife handle that one. if we have any boys in the future, i'll handle theirs. and just because i think you're going to ask anyway, i would tell my boys that they have a pee pee (for potty training purposes) until i felt they were mature enough for the talk.

AOTKorby

To kill this bullshit conversation about whether this sin or that sin or whatever sin is wrong by Christian standards, why the hell should everyone have to live by Christian morals and Christian doctrine and Christian religious law? It's not just Christianity, it's all religions. Religion deserves no power over the individual except that which the individual lets him/herself believe to follow. A Buddhist should not be forced to have his child baptized, right? There's no reason for an Atheist or a Hindu to go to Confession, is there? Then why in the hell should homosexuals be forced to live under doctrine based on Abrahamic religious belief? Why the shit do people actually believe Creationism, and Abrahamic Creationism alone, deserves to be taught as "science" in public schools? There are some acts which are considered morally wrong on a secular level, things like murder and theft and whatnot, but they are based on Enlightenment ideas of the individual's rights which cannot be taken away by anyone, not even the government. If free will is such a right, and if you're going to argue that people shouldn't have free will then holy shit we're done here, then no one has the power, least of all a religion of less than 2000 years of seniority based on a book written before the bronze age, to say that two consenting adults should not have the right to enter a legal contract (by the way, that's what marriage is and always has been) to commit to one another, regardless of whether it's heterosexual or homosexual.

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Vengeance

So you don't have a problem with someone who is gay so long as they don't identify themselves as being gay? Like they keep it in the closet so to speak? You basically have a problem when someone is openly gay is what you're trying to say? Thanks I'm beginning to better understand your way of thinking.

So if one of your so called gay friends strikes of a political conversation about say gay marriage & being for it you'd get offended then? I mean really now politics is one of the examples of conversation pieces you've given.

You need water to survive you don't need an X-Box or a new car to survive. There's a clear difference between the two.

Do you need an iphone in order to survive? Are you not envious of that iphone if you don't have one while you see someone else with one? If you weren't envious of it you wouldn't have brought it.

Agreed.

Again what does your daughter burning herself have to do with my point about god being a vain rageaholic?

Define mature age. Are you talking 5, 10, 13, 17? What is considered mature in your eyes.

To give you my opinion on the matter it is as soon as your child knows how to speak & you are leaving that child in the care of someone else for long periods off time(like school for example). Since your child should understand what to call their private parts & know that it is not ok for someone to touch them. You teach them the proper terms for these things so in the event that something actually does happen (a teacher or relative molesting them) they know that it was wrong & they know to tell you right away about what happened. Giving them cute nicknames for their private parts could potentially lead to a guidance consular not fully understanding that the child is trying to tell them that they were molested if they were afraid to confide in you.

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Axiom

Like your tolerance of gay marriage?

It's OK if I am a total homophob guys, I have a gay friend.

It's hilarious he went out of his way to mention that it wasn't a gay bar. Tis the final clue.... "hole in the wall joint"? Yeah, glory hole.

Edit:
Come out of the closet Dr. Jekyl, and meet Mr. Hyde

jekyl_hyde

i don't think you are understanding what i'm saying.

me personally, i believe the greatest gift from God is Jesus, and the opportunity of eternal life through him. the second greatest gift, if free will. he's given me the will to choose my fate, whether it is what he wants or not.

the only way a person can truly understand the concept of allowing/restricting a person's will is by being a parent or guardian of an individual who depends on you for their life and livelihood. that's why i used the example of a hot surface, and do i let my daughter touch it -> hence learning the lesson that hot things are bad and bring harm (at an early age); or do i keep her from said things -> hence restricting her free will, keeping her safe, and subsequently ignorant of hot things (at the early age).

as children grow and mature, i'm sure we all agree that we have to let the child "spread their wings and fly" to ascertain what is out there, and for the child to reach his/her potential in life. but they're given the choice to make for themselves. but i also think we are all in agreement, that we shouldn't let a toddler do as he or she pleases, and have complete free will.

and just for the christian related argument, the point at which a person "spreads their wings and flies" is called the age of accountability.

Vengeance

I personally have gay friends, have went to gay bars with my gay friends, & have been spanked on stage by a drag queen. You don't have to be gay in order to enjoy the company of your friends while going to places they like to go to just because you normally wouldn't go there by yourself. You can just go out to have fun with your friends since well they're supposed to be your friends. It's like saying I only like this part of you but please keep this very important aspect of your life to yourself since it offends me. Sorry but that's not what a true friend is. What you have are called acquaintances.

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AOTKorby

That's beautiful. Now why the hell shouldn't that free will be given to homosexuals, seeing as Jesus preached love and tolerance yet practically all those who are violently in opposition to gay marriage are hateful bigots?

And what, pray tell, equates homosexuals to "children" and the church to "parents" who have to restrain the "children" from doing as they please? There's nothing evil about homosexuality in its effects on anyone but the involved parties, and they are following as their hearts guide them instead of having to hide who they are. So again, what makes being homosexual sinful, other than "Bible sez so?" What makes it something that should be restricted "for their own good?"

Again, if two consenting adults (as in those who are of said age of accountability) wish to be married (again, a legal contract and nothing more at the end of the day), why should they be denied the ability to do so just because they are homosexual? You openly stated above that you opposed gay marriage rights, so you should have an answer to that. Hopefully it isn't just that you've refused to think for yourself and failed to realize that there is no reason that your views should be forced on others.

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jekyl_hyde

@veng
1. No, and I thought you might head in that direction. I don't tolerate a person who solely identifies him/herself based on the sexuality, whether they are homo or hetero. I mean seriously, there are only so many sexual conversations that are ok to have. then it gets creepy. So I don't like the "obnoxious gay" person. I'm cool with the "sports" guy who is gay.
2. I don't get offended. I either don't talk about it (depending on how relatable I am to the person), or we talk about it in a reasonable matter. Most of the gay people I know, know my stance on gay marriage, but more importantly know my stance on marriage and government.
3. There is nothing wrong with wanting a new house, a new vehicle, a new job. When it becomes wrong is when that takes the lead in your life. Envy is wanting "that" iphone that "that" person has. That is what coveting is. My neighbor has a 2010 nissan titan truck. it's black. I would like to have a black nissan titan truck. I don't want his. But I would like to have one like it.
4. God is not a rageaholic. Now this goes into Christian doctrine, so take it for what you will. But angels are beings without a free will. So theologians have made the argument that angels once had a will, but that was restricted once Lucifer and his angels rebelled against God (like I said, take it for what you will). Humans on the other hand, created in his image, are given free will. We've been given the option to choose what we do, how we do it, and what we believe. There are those who have took this to one extreme (for instance the Westboro Baptist Hypocrits), while others have taken it to another (you refering to God as a rageaholic who allows for a person to have urges, but will strike them down for pursuing those urges). We're given the free will to pursue what is in our heart, whether it is good things or bad things. Regardless of your choice, most Christians believe that everyone will have their own Judgment Day before God.
5. A mature age, IMHO can not be generalized. Some children mature at a quicker rate than others (I'm talking mentally here just to clarify). I am in agreement with you on identifying what is inappropriate touching, and God help the person (and me) whomever touches my child inappropriately. I understand what you are saying about using anatomically correct terms, but during the early years... just seems wierd to imagine my little girl saying vagina (i just shuddered, literally).

@aotkorby
1. You're going to have radicals on both sides. If you don't agree so, you're only lying to yourself.
2. You completely misunderstood my analogy. It had nothing to do with homosexuals, at all. This all goes back to veng talking about a creator who allows free will, but condemns certain acts (shortest paraphrase i could think of).
3. I don't agree with gay marriage, because I believe that marriage is between a man and a woman. Like I've stated before, I think government should steer clear of the marriage argument. The reason I don't agree with it, is because on it's foundation, in every religion, and historical concept, marriage has been between members of the opposite sex. Marriage is 99% a religious concept. That remaining 1% is for the historical royalty and nobles.

Now when I say religions, I'm talking doctrine. If a gay couple wants to live together, and say between them and whatever god they believe in, that's their prerogative.

But everything within the concept of marriage, for me, is for religious reasons only.

p.s. I'm a doctrine guy. I can respect a person for believing in something, as long as they follow a doctrine (even if it is something they wrote themselves). However, I do not respect a person who is a flopper when it comes to what they believe in. And to clarify that, I mean I understand a person can change his/her mind, but when you change your mind on a daily/weekly/monthly basis... that's flake-ish to me.