Numinous

Oh for fuck's sake, your reading comprehension is worse than a Tea Party's member.

I wasn't even taking sides on whether Kishimoto was using his science properly or not, since he's inconsistent. Sometimes he uses it correctly (genetics, thermodynamics in Kirin) and sometimes he simply craps on it (being the most notable example the thermodynamics in Jokey Boy).

My point is that you, KYF, are far too ignorant of science to properly comment on it. And you only started to be skeptical of Kishi's science to prove your completely idiotic theory right. It's really obvious when you try to bring gold's magnetism inconsistency to prove Kishi's genetics and genealogy wrong and providing no evidence whatsoever that those disciplines were being used wrongly.

You know why? Because Kishi, even being a crappy writer as of late, at least knows how basic genetics and genealogy work and deep down you do know that. You're just so bent on making things go your way you're willing to ignore the obvious and start to over-complicate things you're almost the antithesis of Occam's Razor.

As a final note:

No, I wasn't. Not all Uzumaki are redheads and not all redheads are Uzumaki as canon proves it. Try harder, noob.

__________________

stubborn_d0nkey

That was harsh.

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I am THE stubborn_d0nkey, thou shalt not have other stubborn donkeys before me.

LIVE LONG AND PROSPER

Quotes for noobs (learn how to break up a quote)

kael03

But accurate.

Konnaha_yellow_flash

That is Ironic coming from you captain flip flop....

That is all I was trying to point out... Yet you wish to try and argue a theory is not plausible because it does not follow Actual genetics despite the fact kishi does not use proper science all that much... so the argument was illogical...
ANd by your own statement^^ you admit your argument was flawed believing something not following actual genetics makes it impossible to come true in this manga... despite the constant inaccuracies...


BS... You tried to insist kishi uses science properly in this manga which is why my theory will not work... the genetics does not fit... which is just BS considering kishi's track record...
You are just arguing about this and making such a illogical statement because you are trying to prove my theory wrong... which is just stupid as usual with you...
All the times kishi has used science inaccurately means nothing because you want to win a argument... Spppppppppppp *thumbs down* Quit trying to reverse our roles...

and again you claim no evidence which is just Denial on your part...

How is Gaara's father using magnetism to attract gold out of the ground (which you admitted kishi was implying in one of your own posts) then using it as a wave says enough.... Then you try to give a feasible use of magnetism that would allow gaara's father to do what he did, but it was still way off...
meaning you clearly are the one lacking knowledge on this subject... not myself... or you are just making shit up as you usually do to try and support your argument...

You are projecting your ass of here... I am not the one who made a theory that kishi used proper science by having gaara's daddy create two magnetic fields to push the gold in all directions, then to become a wave to counter gaara's sand wave which is just wrong on it's own...

If gold is repelled by Magnetism... Then gaara's father would have to create so many magnetic fields to push the gold up from the ground and into a wave that it is not plausible for a single person to do so... SO you fail at your thory and knowing how gold should react to magnetism as well...

And genealogy is the closest thing to making sense in this story... I already admitted that... But it too has inconsistencies as well... You just do not want to admit it yourself... because it would severely hurt your own argument...

Those descended from the Uzumaki clan have trademark red hair... CANONZ!!! Something your said "No, that is BS, nononononono Lalalalala, laaaaa" and yet kabuto stated it too... yet you still bitch about it...
Although their will be hybrids who have little uzumaki in them... The ones who were being discussed as being uzumaki's such as Karin which came to pass and you called BS... and next is Gaara, his father and the previous kage before him... that you also claimed BS with... That was the discussion, not every person with uzumaki blood in them having red hair...

Naruto takes after his father so it's obvious why he has no red hair... and tsunade's parents are unknown....

So keep up, noob... Try to learn something lol...

ANd I recall you insisting that madara did not give nagato his eye's... Even bringing up the fact madara has one SG as proof (your idea of proof as usual)... Now look how dumb you look... madara admitted himself he gave away his eye's and nagato having hte only RG makes that shit practically canonz... SO uummm, Ha! That is all...

__________________
People live relying on they're Knowledge and Perception, and thus are bound to them.....
Those Boundaries are what they tend to accept as "Reality".....
However..... Knowledge and Perception are both ambiguous....
so "Reality" could be nothing more....
then an illusion....

ITACHI UCHIHA

Numinous

No, your argument is illogical because you're assuming that the particular (Kishi's knowledge of genealogy and genetics) has the same properties as the whole (Kishi's average knowledge of science). That's a fallacy of division.

Too bad I never said such. Strawman much?

Or maybe you don't know how magnetism works, thus perceiving I'm making stuff up. Really, KYF, grab a book before trying to debate me on science, you're way off of your league if you think you can beat me on that department.

Show me the inconsistencies of genetics and genealogy in this manga. Thus far, I've encountered none.

Not this again. Fuck you, after explaining to you what trademark is, you still spout this shit?! Many Uzumaki do have red hair, but not all of them have and not all red hairs are Uzumaki, as proven by the manga.

I don't know what's worse, you still not getting that Gaara is still NOT confirmed as Uzumaki or that you're committing a No True Scotsman fallacy. ALL Uzumaki, no matter how branched off of the original bloodline, need to be accounted for an argument using an universal premise (as yours) to be logically feasible. Since Tsunade and Naruto are blond, your universal premise is WRONG. So what if Naruto is half Uzumaki and Tsunade 1/4? Do you know if Karin, Nagato, etc. were 100% Uzumaki to exclude Naruto and Tsunade? Yeah, that's what I thought.


Which I admitted I was wrong. Since, you know, I'm human and thus fallible. Try to acknowledge your HUGE mistakes once in a while maybe you'll stop being such a washed-down idiot.

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Konnaha_yellow_flash

The fallacy was your basis of argument...

You: "Your theory is wrong because it does not follow actual genetics and genealogy..."

You later: "i admit that the kishi does not use science properly allot of the time"...

Yea, you keep contradicting yourself...

and so you did not admit you were wrong to believe a theory not following basic genetics to the T cannot be right... despite the constant inaccuracies that you yourself admitted... W/e you keep contradicting yourself... Geez...

Claim^^^^

Fact: "Gold is repelled by magnetism"... Thus for garaa's father to get it out of the ground and form it into a wave would not take simply two magnetic fields, but tons... especially to form a wave by having magnetic fields on each side at the right place to form a wave from pushing the dust...

But no... somehow one magnetic field would somehow push all the gold dust up from the ground despite (which would only possibly work if daddy gaara put a huge magnetic field deep inside the ground to push the dust up) however, gaara's father concentrating his power at the top of the ground completely shits on that...
And then how is one magnetic field going to push gold dust into a wave form??? Only by attracting the dust could that be done with one field... Gaara's father would need many... one on each side, below, above, ect... all in the right place to form a wave by pushing the dust together which is not possible by one person...

Now that is over complicating things which you bitched at me about...

1). The sage's descendants after only about 1000 years of evolution have every hair color in the rainbow and even different skin tone despite coming from two pale black haired brothers... I am sure it would take longer then that for so many different hair colors and couple different skin tones to change...
2). The RG allows the user to perform any jutsu which would include bloodline limits like the yamanaka's that nagato used to perform his six paths of pain jutsu... Yet nagato only had the bloodline of the uzumaki and apparently the uchiha as well...
3). Cells of hashirama should not be able to be implanted into danzou's arm and actually allow the use of his power... It should have killed him or done nothing at all... cell implantation of hashirama is only something that should work for fellow descendants of the sage like uchiha or uzumaki... Which danzou was not...

That is just off the top of my head... I will fetch more of needed...


You have proved nothing!!! You assume... The red heads of the manga...

Karin... Uzumaki....
Gaara, his dad and the third kazekage... most likely uzumaki's..
Nagato... uzumaki...
Kushina and mito... uzumaki...
CHouji's father.... could be realted to the uzumaki... the clan has yet to have it's origins and other relations revealed....
Random cloud nin with magnetism element... likely uzumaki like the others..

That is all the red heads I can think of... bring more if you know them...

and naruto, tsunade have some uzumaki in them, but clearly did not take after that bloodline which is why they do not hsave... say it with me... RED HAIR!!!

I know gaara's not confirmed an uzumaki... yet... but by the manga's statement... Gaara's implied to have inherited his father's bloodline of the uzumaki...

I already stated this... and you know this as well... Those directly descended form the uzumaki have red hair... so those who take on the bloodline of the uzumaki of their parent's/grandparents, ect who are as well will have red hair...
Naruto's mom is descended from the uzumaki thus her red hair..., but Naruto's father who he takes after is related to the namikaze.... thus his blonde hair...
even in the hypothetical of the manga where naruto took after his mom's bloodline, not his fathers... naruto had red hair...
Tsunade is taking after whoever her father or mother is.... not the uzumaki bloodline that runs in her family.. otherwise she would have red hair...

It is what the manga is pointing out so many times now....

[/QUOTE]
This is the first I have heard about this... You have not told me your were wrong until now so why imply you already said it??? Was it in a random post?

__________________
People live relying on they're Knowledge and Perception, and thus are bound to them.....
Those Boundaries are what they tend to accept as "Reality".....
However..... Knowledge and Perception are both ambiguous....
so "Reality" could be nothing more....
then an illusion....

ITACHI UCHIHA

kael03

2 things:
1) How do you know that Gaara's dad is applying a magnetic field from the top down? Are you able to see magnetic fields that we are not? How do you know that he is not sending his chakra below the gold and pushing it in the direction he wants to go? And since it is his bloodline limit, the amount of effort needed to use that much magnetism would be very low.

2)You do realize that magnetic fields work in multiple directions, right?

Occam's razor says that it is more likely that Gaara's dad used multiple fields to manipulate gold, since Kishi hasn't really fucked with physics outside of suspension of disbelief. Elements still act as they do in the real world.

This is a baseless claim. The timeline for the Sage has never been stated, so saying "only about 1000 years" is arguing from ignorance. The only thing known about the Sage is that he lived so long ago he is regarded as either myth/legend, or not even a blip on people's radars.

Also, ~1000 years is about 14 generations. That is enough time to establish new families within a genetic line (I think, correct me if I'm wrong Num).

3 things wrong with this.
1) The rinnegan has NEVER been shown to use bloodline limits. It has never been claimed to use bloodline limits. Not once has a rinnegan user, without the aid of genetic material from a specific bloodline (Madara with Hashirama's DNA), been shown to use a bloodline limit element. Madara is the only exception because he has been shown to have Hashirama's DNA incorporated into his own body.

Hell, the databook even points out that it can use all 5 nature alterations, while saying nothing about bloodline limits.

Case in point:
Read the bolded part.

2) Nagato's ability to control corpses is nothing like the Yamanaka ability to control bodies. He used the chakra rods to pump his own chakra into reanimated bodies. Kind of like using electricity to stimulate muscles into contracting. He didn't send his entire consciousness into the paths, as he has been shown talking to Konan at the same time as Naruto.

3) The Yamanaka clan's mind transfer technique is NOT a bloodline limit. It is a specialty jutsu of the Yamanaka clan. It's labeled as just a Ninjutsu in the databook, where Bloodline limits are labeled "Kekkei Genkai" and Hiden techniques are labeled "Hiden".

Here's the databook entry:
Also, note the differences between the entries for the Rinnegan and the Shintenshin no Jutsu. Notice how the Rinnegan has it labeled as a Kekkei Genkai, but the Shintenshin no Jutsu doesn't? Yeah, Shintenshin no Jutsu is NOT a bloodline limit.

You're assuming as well. However, you are assuming on the side that requires evidence to support the claim.

Does that mean that Temari and Kankuro are also Uzumaki? Since they are blood related to Gaara and the 4th Kazekage an all. But wait! They don't have red hair!!

Why are you singling out Chouza from the entire clan?

He doesn't have red hair. So, by your definition, he can't be Uzumaki.

You really don't understand the meaning of "Trademark". Not everyone of a group has to have a certain trait labeled as that group's "Trademark". Not everyone with that "Trademark" have to be part of that group, either. As pointed out, Tsunade and Naruto are part of the Uzumaki family, with Naruto being born from a full-blown Uzumaki, but they lack the "trademark" red hair.

Here's another example. Sawing a woman in half is a trademark of magicians. However, not all magicians use that trick.

No, it isn't. Karin being an Uzumaki, while an asspull, isn't just based on her red hair. It is mostly based on her ability to heal and her vitality, the latter which the Uzumaki were most known for.

Numinous

Well, the timeline for RS is 500~3500+ years, so the genetic drift is really an unknown. That said, even taking into account the fabricated timeline of 1000 years, we're talking about 35 generations and you can even count by hand the amount of generations that are enough to witness small differences in the phenotype of related families, like predominant hair/eye color, etc.

My family is a great example: my great-grandfather and his brother had blue eyes and, while my great-grandfather married a blue-eyed woman, his brother married a brown-eyes woman. Result? My side of the family has a huge tendency for blue eyes (specially after my grandfather married another blue-eyed woman) while the side of my great-granduncle are all practically brown-eyed. And that's a phenomenon that took only 4~5 generations to happen.

One could say "but they're still the same family". Well, again, my family has a great example: I have Mizrahim ascendancy that is traced all the way back to late XVI century, where a family of that Jewish clan changed its name and fled to Portugal to avoid the Spanish Inquisition. But my family isn't the only one descended from that family, there are two others that actually branched off each other in early XVIII century (so my family is like the Uchiha and the other two like the Senju and Uzumaki, if you like the comparison). That's only 4 centuries and 13 generations, and we know for a fact that the Uchiha, Senju and Uzumaki clans are older than that (thanks to the Akimichi putting the lower limit at 16 generations/5 centuries).

Of course such genetic drift and conservation of traits depend on many factors, but Kishi actually did a good job on the Uzumaki, considering he placed them on a less accessible region for many generations, which is wonderful for conservation of traits (like the British Isles' redheads, the Ainu from Japan and even the Basques' predominance of Rh negative blood and lack of B and AB blood).

So only a complete idiot would say 1000 years aren't enough for genetic drift between 3 clans, when 150 years were enough for Europe to recover its genetic diversity damaged by the bottleneck effect of the Black Plague.


Wow, thinking that people take on only one of their parents' traits instead of the two, thinking that phenotype somehow proves genotype entirely... the fuck where you doing in biology classes, jerking off instead of paying attention?

Well, if you actually read the posts in the forum instead of staring at them like a retard, you'd see what I posted in the 602 discussion thread:

So yes, you're a retard. Not exactly something new, but thanks for recognizing it yourself.

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Konnaha_yellow_flash

His hands are on the top of the ground and gold is the only thing being pulled out of the ground... If he had put a field deep under ground to push gold dust up then the attractive elements should've been attracted as well creating a giant crater in the ground, but that is not what happened...
He clearly used a field at the top of the ground where his hands were to draw the gold out of the ground and form it into a wave.... just quit arguing that he used a field under ground to repel the gold out because it would not of come out and formed a wave... it would've went everywhere and had no shape at all...

Multiple directions... Mkay...

Numi said two magnetic fields would gather the gold and make a wave out of it... But that is not possible... the amount of magnetic fields daddy gaara would have to create to push all that gold dust out of the ground then form a wave out of it would be too much for one person so tell me about Occam's razor... and what the simplest answer is???

addy gaara puts his hands on the ground to use magnetism element...

:Gold dust come out of the ground and forms into a wave...

:The rest of the attractive elements in the ground were not attracted either... as if only the gold was drawn out...

Daddy gaara did something he shouldn't have... attracted gold out of the ground then attracted it into a wave... while leaving the other magnetic elements alone...

Tell again about a plausible use here again....

How long do you think a generation is lol... it is about 3o-35 years judging by ages of the previous generation and then their children and so on in this story....
Hashirama had children with mito about 80 years ago, those children had children 50 years ago... but tsunade never had children... she is 50 with no known child... but judging by hashi an dhis childrens time, tsunade should of had children 30 years ago (kakashi's generation) and we know that asuma and kurenai who are from that generation had a child so it fits... close enough...

30 years in each generation and 1000 years... there is over 30 generations then... We know the akamichi have had 16 generation's since the start of their clan which is only a little over 500 years... So I think amount of time since the RS is pretty close...

The use of ANY JUTSU is self explanatory... and since bloodline limits are the use of two elements at once... and the RG user can use all the elements... such a thing is not exactly hard to understand why a RG user could use any jutsu....

AGain, nagato is able to put his full consciousness into six different bodies at a time... and when he was taking with konan, there were only a couple bodies left so that point is null...

and nagato

3) The Yamanaka clan's mind transfer technique is NOT a bloodline limit. It is a specialty jutsu of the Yamanaka clan. It's labeled as just a Ninjutsu in the databook, where Bloodline limits are labeled "Kekkei Genkai" and Hiden techniques are labeled "Hiden".

Here's the databook entry:gives the dead bodies his chakra which allows him to control them... the same way the yamanaka do it... nagato just uses chakra rods to guide his chakra so he doesn't miss..


Not sure what the mind transfer jutsu is, but it is not something anyone can just use so it has something to do with the bloodline...

I already explained that... they clearly did not take after the father... but Gaara did, thus his red Hair and ability to be COMPATIBLE with a bijuu to use it...
Those who inherit the uzumaki bloodline completely, not partially like kankuro, temari, naruto or tsunade gain red hair to show they posses the power of the uzumaki....

Naruto was already explained as well as obvious... he takes after his father's bloodline, not his mother... otherwise he would have red hair as the author showed...
It is obvious that when a child is born from an uzumaki and another bloodline... that the one who takes after the uzumaki parent will have red hair.... Just like how gaara does... and just like how gaara has his father's KKG as well while the other's have no KKGs...

[/QUOTE]

AN ass pull you say... Why??? Because you have no common sense to deduce that

:Red hair is a trademark of those who are descended from the Uzumaki clan...

: Karin has red Hair!!!!

Conclusion: Adduuuuhhhhhh!!! Shiz dah Uzimakiz's tooz...

Kabuto even said karin's red hair gives her away as an uzumaki... ALL uzumaki have red hair... as I have been saying...
[IMG][/IMG]

__________________
People live relying on they're Knowledge and Perception, and thus are bound to them.....
Those Boundaries are what they tend to accept as "Reality".....
However..... Knowledge and Perception are both ambiguous....
so "Reality" could be nothing more....
then an illusion....

ITACHI UCHIHA

UzumakiUchiha

Yeah all pure uzumaki has red hair, doesn't mean all red hair ninjas' are uzumakis. There's a difference to what your saying and what the manga is saying. So yes when you say "All uzumaki have red hair" thats right. BUT, ALL red hair ain't uzumaki.


BTW i still think tobi is shisui, i think kishi made a mistake that he will rectify soon, your my proof

kael03

Correction, professor. THERE IS NO DATABOOK ENTRY. Fuck you for trying to pull that bullshit. The "Six Paths of Pain" technique doesn't appear in any of the databooks, while Nagato and the Rinnegan do. The entries for both of those topics body have nothing for using other bloodline limits.

Nagato:
Clearly states he can only use the 5 base elements.

Rinnegan (again):
Again, says the user can only use the 5 base elements. Bloodline limits are not mentioned, anywhere. When Ibiki says that a Rinnegan user can use "any" technique, he meant any technique that used the base elements. Unless they had the genetic material of a bloodline limit (Madara with Hashirama's DNA), they can't access the bloodline limit.

Dude, you are fucking dense. The mind transfer jutsu the Yamanaka clan use is NOT a bloodline limit. It has never been stated to be a bloodline limit, even in the databook. It is the Yamanaka clan's specialty jutsu, just like Kagemane is the Nara clan's specialty jutsu, and the Body expansion jutsu is the

...Gaara's dad had AUBURN HAIR, dumbass, which is a reddish-brown. Meaning it is predominantly brown, with red accenting it. His mother had BROWN hair as well.

Wait, wait, wait. How the fuck is Gaara considered a pure Uzumaki, but his SIBLINGS are not? They have the same parents you twit. And, as I pointed out above, BOTH PARENTS HAD BROWN HAIR.

Just stop. Gaara has never been stated to have the Magnet element. Ever, at all, nothing. The composition of sand, in general, has so little in the way of magnetic elements that it is impossible to maintain a sufficient enough magnetic field to affect it. Not to mention that any magnetic impurities in the sand would be affected, while the sand itself would stay put.

Naruto and Tsunade would like words with you. Enough of that "pure blood Uzumaki" bullshit. Naruto is an Uzumaki, he was born from an Uzumaki, but he has Blonde hair. Tsunade is at least 1/4 Uzumaki, depending on her parents lineage, and she has Blonde hair.

Trademark, as defined by the World Dictionary - "a distinctive mark or feature particularly characteristic of or identified with a person or thing."

Just because a feature is the trademark of something, doesn't mean that all of that something have that trademark, or that those with the trademark feature are part of the group with said trademark.

apacolypz

kael03Correction, professor. THERE IS NO DATABOOK ENTRY. Fuck you for trying to pull that bullshit. The "Six Paths of Pain"



Singing another one bites the dust!

AniMeFaN

I skimmed a bit. 100% Uzumaki have red hair, not all red heads are Uzumaki. The Sage of Six Paths could use any technique as he was all the blood line limits in one. The rinnigan cannot use every blood line limit, just every base element. Manga is based on our world but it doesnt match our world. Meaning science doesnt have to be the same. You can use science to explain things but you are going to fail a times because its a manga, its not a real world

emachina

We already had a joke thread about this, but still, KYF are you implying that ninjas with red hair are descendants of the Uzumaki? Even Sasori and Karui?

__________________

One Piece! Hell Yeah!

Vishnu

Sasori, Gaara and Karui would like a word with you.

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When other men blindly follow the truth remember:
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When other men are limited by morality and law remember:
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