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Old 09-24-2012, 08:42 AM   #196
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Re: Naruto_602

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Originally Posted by Vishnu View Post
The thing about the prophecy it's like this: the frogs made it, saying that there will be a guy, trained by Jiraya, who will either bring peace to the world or destroy it. But if you remember, at the end of the Pain fight, the toad sage said that Jiraya actually trained two of this kind. First, obviously Pain, and the second Naruto. Now about Minato...what he was doing was foreshadowing the events. It's not a prophecy that he made, it was a hunch. If you ask me, he was quite stupid to sacrifice himself and his wife, and condamn his newborn to a paria life, but it doesn't matter anyway. So, the sole prophecy made is the one that the Sage Frog did. Minto probably knew about it from Jiraya, since he was his student and Kage. And if the Raikage knew about the "Saviour" don't you think that Jiraya would have shared this info with Minto too?
Ok I hear what you're saying but the problem is Minato. According to the manga(at least what's being shown) all Minato was told is that Jiraiya will train a child that would bring disaster or save the world. So when he made this hunch as you put it, he was basing it on a completely NEW set of evidence, for lack of a better word. Jiraiya's prophecy didn't mention 2 children of destiny, yet for some reason, Minato links Tobi with the prophecy.

That's all I'm actually saying and I agree with you that Minato's sacrifice was very stupid. The issue of foreshadowing and prophecy, imo is an ambiguous one. You can view what Minato said and done as both to be honest. He couldn't possibly know his son will grow to become strong enough and be the one to stop Tobi, nor did he know that Tobi was even that dangerous, considering he just defeated him in minutes. So that's why I think its open for debate but I also accept that the burden of proof should be on me.

Currently, the Toad Sage has made a prophecy regarding Naruto vs Child with powerful destiny. Lol at least give me that man, you lot are being too harsh on me. At the very least, there has being 3 Legit Prophecy(made by sages) so I think I got that right, didn't I?

Raikage said he didn't think they'll be anyone to surpass Minato. Please remind where he said something about this saviour because I can't remember it.

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Old 09-24-2012, 09:49 AM   #197
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Re: Naruto_602

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Originally Posted by minato uchiha View Post
Ok I hear what you're saying but the problem is Minato. According to the manga(at least what's being shown) all Minato was told is that Jiraiya will train a child that would bring disaster or save the world. So when he made this hunch as you put it, he was basing it on a completely NEW set of evidence, for lack of a better word. Jiraiya's prophecy didn't mention 2 children of destiny, yet for some reason, Minato links Tobi with the prophecy.

That's all I'm actually saying and I agree with you that Minato's sacrifice was very stupid. The issue of foreshadowing and prophecy, imo is an ambiguous one. You can view what Minato said and done as both to be honest. He couldn't possibly know his son will grow to become strong enough and be the one to stop Tobi, nor did he know that Tobi was even that dangerous, considering he just defeated him in minutes. So that's why I think its open for debate but I also accept that the burden of proof should be on me.

Currently, the Toad Sage has made a prophecy regarding Naruto vs Child with powerful destiny. Lol at least give me that man, you lot are being too harsh on me. At the very least, there has being 3 Legit Prophecy(made by sages) so I think I got that right, didn't I?

Raikage said he didn't think they'll be anyone to surpass Minato. Please remind where he said something about this saviour because I can't remember it.

@emancia and his Dragon: ask your parents to dance for you first, not me. But ok, since you poofs asked nicely, I'll dance for you. Ready?

The saviour of the world needs someone to fight, an enemy, i agree on that part. But as far as we can tell, the enemy that Naruto is facing is neither Tobi, Madara or Sasuke. He is fighting the very hatred that lies at the base of the ninja system. Thus, Minato, being aware of this situation, entrusts his child with the burden of "finding an answer". This legacy of his, is also based probably on the information that he received from Jiraya, and from his small encounter with Obito, even if he defeated him in minutes. So, in fact, the prophecy refers to Naruto as the bringer of peace, and him leading the ninja world in a new era. Tobi, Madara, Sasuke are mere incarnations of the evil (hatred) that Naruto must face. Also, the prophecy was made in my opinion only to link Nagato with Naruto. Thus, by defeating Nagato, a creature forged in hatred and pain, Naruto can rise above those two mentioned. And, the prophecy could not refer to a single man. I think it's about both Naruto and Nagato who were trying to save the world but using different methods. Anyway it's an archetype. The hero must fall first, then as he rises he begins to understand the world. Then, it's a final confrontation between him, who represents the good and a personification of the evil. That's what you need to understand: riht now, Naruto is facing the result of the corrupted, vengeful ninja system, and the horrors of the past. I agree on the Minato part, he made a gamble there with presuming that his son will became someone able to change the world. But in my opinion it wasn't a prophecy.

Also here it is the link where Raikage refers about Minato as the "Saviour of the world" : http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/541/8

Edit: Guys, if you talk with him in a civilized manner he replies in the same way. As you can see he didn't insulted me and i didn't insulted him. It's his opinion, and even if it's flawed, it doesn't matter. You can prove him wrong and he can prove you wrong without the insults. It's a fucking manga afterall.
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Last edited by Vishnu; 09-24-2012 at 09:53 AM.
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Old 09-24-2012, 09:59 AM   #198
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Re: Naruto_602

Let me ask you a question.

When did Minato says Tobi is the child of prophercy?

The childs of prophecy are Naruto and Nagato

What 3 legit prophecy the toad have made?

Back your theory with evidence or those people will methodically took you apart
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Old 09-24-2012, 10:10 AM   #199
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Re: Naruto_602

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Originally Posted by kluang View Post
Let me ask you a question.

When did Minato says Tobi is the child of prophercy?

The childs of prophecy are Naruto and Nagato

What 3 legit prophecy the toad have made?

Back your theory with evidence or those people will methodically took you apart
He is wrong about three prophecies. There have been only two legit prophecy made so far. The Saviour of the world and Naruto vs Sasuke.
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Old 09-24-2012, 02:06 PM   #200
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Re: Naruto_602

@vishu: respect for what you said. I also apologise for what I said to you in the past. This is a quick one, I'll address your post when I can.

There has being 3 prophecies in Naruto. The first is what the Sage told to the tailed beast, and what will happen to them. Then its the other 2 you mentioned.

@Kluang: that was a typo, sorry, my mistake. Minato said this about Tobi. That he was the harbringer of the great disaster Jiraiya spoke off. So aint that a prophecy? Where did Minato say that when the Toad Sage said nothing of the sort?

That's all I'm saying, when you check what Minato said, its clear that Tobi or this harbringer, was mentioned in Jiraiya's prophecy. Am I wrong, or I'm I chatting shit? Lol
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Old 09-24-2012, 02:16 PM   #201
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Re: Naruto_602

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Originally Posted by minato uchiha View Post
That's all I'm saying, when you check what Minato said, its clear that Tobi or this harbringer, was mentioned in Jiraiya's prophecy. Am I wrong, or I'm I chatting shit? Lol
There was a "harbinger" mentioned in the prophecy, but it wasn't Tobi. The Sage said that Jiraiya's student, the "Child of Prophecy", would be the harbinger of a revolution in the ninja world. Minato's prediction about Tobi was that he knew the fight with Tobi wasn't going to end like it did, and that he would be back for the 9-tails.
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Old 09-24-2012, 02:22 PM   #202
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Re: Naruto_602

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v53/c503/17.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v53/c503/18.html

i believe u can see that minato knows that "he might be the child of prophecy", I dont think there was anywhere it said that minato knew the whole prophecy ( i mean its exact details).... he only knew there is going to be a revolution and the child of prophecy will be the saviour thts all. He doesnt know tht the child wwud be taught by jiraya or tht there will be two child etc... u get the picture .. i guess
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Old 09-24-2012, 02:24 PM   #203
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Re: Naruto_602

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Originally Posted by kael03 View Post
There was a "harbinger" mentioned in the prophecy, but it wasn't Tobi. The Sage said that Jiraiya's student, the "Child of Prophecy", would be the harbinger of a revolution in the ninja world. Minato's prediction about Tobi was that he knew the fight with Tobi wasn't going to end like it did, and that he would be back for the 9-tails.
Yes but that harbringer was ONE person, the child of destiny himself. He would either bring about a revolution in the ninja world or destroy it. So why would Minato think Tobi was the harbringer and his son the saviour?

Also at the poster above me. Minato was Jiraiya's student and at one stage, Jiraaiya thought he was the child of destiny. He told him the prophecy, the manga does not have to show that scene taking place, for us to know it did. Lol, its like your saying Minato only knew a lil bit of it, because of what he said

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Old 09-24-2012, 02:28 PM   #204
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Re: Naruto_602

^coz of the above reason!!!
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Old 09-24-2012, 02:33 PM   #205
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Re: Naruto_602

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Originally Posted by minato uchiha View Post
So why would Minato think Tobi was the harbringer and his son the saviour?
He didn't think that Tobi was the harbinger (it's "harbinger" not "harbringer"). He predicted, based on what Jiraiya told him of the prophecy (Jiraiya also thought that the Child was Minato), that Tobi would be one of the catastrophes that befell the ninja world when the Child of Prophecy brought in the revolution.
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Old 09-24-2012, 02:49 PM   #206
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Re: Naruto_602

Cmon now, thats not all he said. He said he realised 2 things. One of them was Tobi and what he will do. Naruto was hours old at most and yet Minato knew that this enemy he had just faced, will be the same enemy, harbinger(happy now, feel like I'm sitting an exam, lol) that his son will have to defeat, to save the ninja world.

Look deeper and you will see. Tobi is THE opponent that the Child of Destiny will have to defeat. He is part of the prophecy. How can you not see that? Tobi is the final villain and the villain is always part of the prophecy made about the hero
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Old 09-24-2012, 02:53 PM   #207
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Re: Naruto_602

m_u, to answer the various questions you seem to think support your conclusion:

1. Why did Minato entrust Kurama to Naruto, believing his son to potentially be the Child of Destiny?

First off, as you may remember, that entire flashback was awash with fucking terrible writing on Kishimoto's part. Minato's actions aren't logically dictated at all, and he frankly does something really fucking stupid given the situation he was in. Secondly, Minato only acts on a hope, a belief that Naruto would become SUPER NINJA JESUS. Prophecy is prediction of future events with certainty. Minato would have had to know that Naruto would become Jiraiya's student, and know that Naruto would be instrumental to "the fate of the world". He didn't know any of that; he chose to believe it. It's called hope.

2. Why would Madara give his eyes to some random kid?

See, the issue here is that there is no answer. We have no logical basis in evidence with which to form a rational hypothesis on this. Every suggestion is basically equally valid for the reasoning, but that doesn't make them valid. Essentially, anything suggested has no logical basis and thus has no plausible base. So while theorizing and wondering about it is fine and dandy, there's absolutely no way of being certain in anything regarding the scenario except that the eye transfer happened.

Essentially this whole argument is because you misunderstand what the concept of prophecy is. Prophecy is not simply foresight; to be actual prophecy requires that the seer knows to some extent what will transpire in the future. If someone looks at popularity polls and predicts that Obama will win the U.S. presidential election this November and he turns out to be right, he's not a psychic. His prediction is based on a logical process, but he could still be wrong (funny thing about logic, logical processes can justify completely factually incorrect statements, and vice versa). Prophecy would be someone having learned the exact events which transpire on election night prior to any of it happening and relating said future to others.
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Old 09-24-2012, 02:57 PM   #208
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Re: Naruto_602

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Originally Posted by minato uchiha View Post
Cmon now, thats not all he said. He said he realised 2 things. One of them was Tobi and what he will do. Naruto was hours old at most and yet Minato knew that this enemy he had just faced, will be the same enemy, harbinger(happy now, feel like I'm sitting an exam, lol) that his son will have to defeat, to save the ninja world.

Look deeper and you will see. Tobi is THE opponent that the Child of Destiny will have to defeat. He is part of the prophecy. How can you not see that? Tobi is the final villain and the villain is always part of the prophecy made about the hero
As i said: my guess is that the trio is the final villain actually. Tobi, Madara and Sasuke. Each one stands for an ugly truth: the betrayal, the hatred, and the pain of losing someone dear. Naruto is the one to face them because he conquered these feelings: the hatred of the village, the pain of losing Jiraya, and Sasuke's treason. The plot right now needs to get to a catarsys. I don't think that Minato was actually worried about Tobi's abilities. My guess is that he was more worried of what Tobi represented. We could refer to Minato's words as a "sequel" to the prophecy. He individualized the Saviour and hoped to be his son.
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Old 09-24-2012, 02:58 PM   #209
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Re: Naruto_602

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Cmon now, thats not all he said.
Read the damn links. That is exactly what he said.

Quote:
He said he realised 2 things. One of them was Tobi and what he will do. Naruto was hours old at most and yet Minato knew that this enemy he had just faced, will be the same enemy, harbinger(happy now, feel like I'm sitting an exam, lol) that his son will have to defeat, to save the ninja world.
I never denied either of those points. I denied that Tobi was the "harbinger" when it was clearly stated by the Toad Sage that the Child of Prophecy was going to be the harbinger of revolution. Tobi, in his role as an antagonist, is one of the catastrophes the child of prophecy will have to face.

Quote:
Look deeper and you will see. Tobi is THE opponent that the Child of Destiny will have to defeat. He is part of the prophecy. How can you not see that? Tobi is the final villain and the villain is always part of the prophecy made about the hero
Again, I never once denied that Tobi was part of the prophecy. I denied him as the "harbinger" of the prophecy, since that word was used to describe the Child of Prophecy. I even linked the page with the toad Sage stating that the Child of Prophecy would be the harbinger of revolution in the ninja world.

For fuck's sake, actually read posts and the links in them (the blue text in the middle of the white text indicates a weblink in the text). Don't just go "So-and-so responded to me. I MUST ARGUE AGAINST THEM!".
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Old 09-24-2012, 03:45 PM   #210
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Re: Naruto_602

Fuck is going on? Stop the wall of texts
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