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Old 01-03-2007, 01:38 AM   #16
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Re: has anyone noticed yet?

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Originally Posted by Saberball View Post
um lets look at it why don't. first the rasengan nothing but chakra control on the highest level i might add. nature manipulation into rasengan is nothing but chakra control. which was why he couldn't do it before because it took to much concetration. like naruto said looking 2 different ways at the same time. The reason both the 4th and kakashi could do it was because neither of them had enough chakra to hold the shadow clones as well as create nature chakra + shape manipulation. which is why most ninja don't use shadow clones like naruto does because they can't. if you think about it cutting your chakra in half or even more if you create more than one clone would be a lot for most ninjas.
I agree with SilverYondiame

The Rasengan is Form manipulation taken to the highest level, not chakra control. If that was the case, we would see Sakura using the Rasengan. Rasengan is chakra being rotated and compressed at fast velocities, basically a nice compressed spirialing ball of chakra that explodes when it reaches impact, its pure form manipulation at its highest level.

Although some form of chakra control must be used to form the Rasengan. Naruto had bad chakra control, so he had problems controlling 100% of his chakra, so he had a clone take care of the shape manipulation as he released the chakra.

Nature manipulation is not considered chakra control. It's the ability to alter the chakra's nature. Altering the nature involves making the chakra either wind, fire, water, earth, or lightning(possibly more if two natures could be combined to form a new nature, but that's genetic) but the ninja must be predisposed to it. If chakra control is needed, its minor.

The 4th Hokage definately had large amounts of chakra, he was able to Summon Gamabunta. Since his chakra control was probably better than Naruto's, he probably did not need a clone when he thought up the jutsu. Jiriaya aso has huge chakra and probably decent chakra control.

But chakra control plays a minor role in Naruto's new jutsu. It was impossible for Naruto to fuse the Rasengan with nature manipulation at first because he was not timing things right. He formed the Rasengan than attempted to add nature manipulation, than it exploded. Even though chakra control plays a minor role, its there alright.

Since he had to have his clone control the shape of the chakra, it was hard for him to add nature manipulation because its to many things going on at once. It's like looking left and right at the sametime because right where you form the Rasengan, nature manipulation have to be added at the same exact time.

So he spilt up the job. If Naruto was able to have one shadow clone hadle the shape manipulation of the Rasengan while he released his chakra and another add nature manipulation at the same time, than all Naruto has to do is hold the jutsu in place.

When Kakashi said that he could not do the jutsu like that even if he was the 4th Hokage, he probably ment that since his chakra is lower than his, therefore while he makes the Rasengan, he spilts his chakra evenly with two shadow clones, his chakra drains quickly and his stamina runs out fast, which results in the jutsu dropping.

If the 4th Hokage tired it if he was alive, he would have formed the Rasengan perfectly, but as he makes his shadow clones, he also winds up wasting his chakra very quickly because stamina is converted to chakra when chakra runs out and if his stamina is low, all of that chakra drains quickly, without refill.

Since Naruto has a lot of chakra, chakra control is not really an issue. Also his stamina is quite high, so when he runs out of gas, he can keep on making chakra by converting more of his stamina into chakra. With the training he's gone through I'm sure he could form the Rasengan and add nature manipulation in it at the same time in one had.

His chakra control probably did get better and his chakra probably did increase, so he should be able to form the Rasengan in his hand while placing his left hand on top while adding nature manipulation at the same time. But we will just have to wait and see for ourselves.
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Old 01-03-2007, 02:15 AM   #17
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Re: has anyone noticed yet?

wow you said a bunch of stuff but what i think is that chakra control is the head and nature/form manipulatons are branches, however they go in seperate differents, alot of wat u said is true, but i still dont see how it means naruto could do the new rasangan with one hand, the training was to develop a jutsu with both form and nature manipulations, but that doesnt mean a person has to be able to make form and nature manipulation at the same time, like naruto said its impossible to do both at the same time (which is why no1 else can do it), hence he needed shadow clones which is extremely high chakra costing, so after this training, the fact that its impossible to do it at the same time still remains right? so he should still need clones.
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Old 01-03-2007, 02:28 AM   #18
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Re: has anyone noticed yet?

^ I guess so, but we will soon find out this coming chapter or the next.
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Old 01-03-2007, 03:20 AM   #19
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Re: has anyone noticed yet?

Naruto has done the regular Rasengan without a clone before in the Naruto movie 2 and other episode which i forgot the number to.
and i dought that Naruto can do the Fuuton Rasengan without a clone, since not even Kakashi, Jiraiya or Yondaime could do it.
But, we will see in the next chapter if he can or not huh
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Old 01-03-2007, 03:43 AM   #20
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Re: has anyone noticed yet?

^But that is hardly a reason. Kakashi, The 4th Hokage nor Jiriaya could add nature manipulation to the Rasengan even with a shadow clone so you can't really base things on that. But soon we will find out if Naruto could perform the Fuuton Rasengan with a shadow clone(s) or not.
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Old 01-03-2007, 04:22 AM   #21
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Re: has anyone noticed yet?

Before the timeskip, when Naruto uses this technique, he typically uses a clone to generate the swirl while the main body creates the shell of chakra to hold it in his hand. Afterward, Naruto was shown to be able to execute a Rasengan using one hand, but still uses a clone on occasion such as with his Ōdama Rasengan.
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Old 01-03-2007, 05:47 AM   #22
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Re: has anyone noticed yet?

^You stated it wrongly. Before the timeskip Naruto used a shadow clone to handle the shape manipulation while Naruto released the chakra. Basically the main body only released the chakra and the shadow clone shaped it because Naruto had problems controlling 100% of his chakra.

But after the timeskip we have only seen Naruto use the Rasengan once by himself and that was when he attacked Itachi's shadow clone, all of the other times he used a shadow clone to help with the shape manipulation.

But what we are debating about is whether Naruto formed the Wind natured Rasengan(Fuuton Rasengan) in his hand with out the aid of a shadow clone. But we should just wait until the new chapter comes out.
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Old 01-03-2007, 06:14 AM   #23
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Re: has anyone noticed yet?

ok lets brake some words down again why done we. first shape manipulation shape implying to give it a form. manipulation implies taking a chaotic form and controling it into something less chaotic. considering that were talking about chakra here that implies chakra control and nothing but chakra control. considering that the rasengan is shape manipulation to the highest level that means its chakra control to the highest level. now second nature manipulation, nature implies the elemental natures which require you to change you chakra into that nature or some thing like that which is nothing but chakra control. manipulation implies doing this as well controling it into the rasengan in this case. this essentually means that its nothing but chakra control. this means that chakra control is everything in this. the reason sakura couldn't do it is because she doesn't have enough chakra. I never said that jariaya and the 4th didn't have alot of chakra i just said they did have enough to cut there power in half while mantaining the clones and creating the rasengan. as well as that naruto has an advantage when it comes to shadow clones because he use them so often so its probably easier on him then other ninjas because his body is use to them.

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Old 01-03-2007, 10:27 AM   #24
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Re: has anyone noticed yet?

well i think that he can use fuuton rasengan one handed thats y he didnt go to meet team 10 after he made the crater cause he knew that it would be to obvious using 2 clones and himself so he stayed longer so he could master it and do it one handed and i think that its kinda 50 50 cause half is chakra control and the other have is just forming ur raw chakra into a ball
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Old 01-03-2007, 03:39 PM   #25
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Re: has anyone noticed yet?

But still, chakra control can't be seen, it's abstract not concrete. Chakra control is the amount of chakra a person can limit and regulate with their own abilities. Like I said earlier, Rasengan is form manipulation taken to the highest level, there is some form of chakra control used, but it's not 100%.

But still the whole thing is not chakra control, yes it's required, but its minimum. Nature manipulation is the ability to alter the chakra's nature if one is predispossed to it. If it is nothing but chakra control, don't you think Sakura would already be predispossed to any nature of chakra? I think not because her chakra control is probably one of the highest in Konoha.

I think the 4th and Jiriaya had just as much possibly more chakra than Naruto. Although they probably don't have enough stamina to hold the jutsu in place, so they don't have the endurance that Naruto has. Naruto has above average chakra and super stamina, so when he does jutus that require emense chakra, he runs out for a little while, but since he has so much stamina, he can convert that into more chakra.

But if Naruto trained with all of those shadow clones day and night, don't you think he could have picked up something? He probably gained enough experince to use the Fuuton Rasengan without shadow clones. But we will see this coming up chapter or the next.
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Old 01-04-2007, 06:39 AM   #26
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Re: has anyone noticed yet?

ok one last thing to point out hopefully. regardless what you do with chakra whether its releasing it, shaping it, or changing it, it's chakra control. as far as I understand it handsigns give a medium for channeling the chakra into what ever form it needs so user for the most part only has to channel the chakra into the jutsu. wile the rasengan and fuuton rasengan don't require handsigns to do any of this its on the user to do it all. as for sakura being able to use nature manipulation i'm sure she probably could if she trained at it but as far as we know she doesn't use them yet. not to mention she was train by tsunade who as far as i know doesn't use the elements.

don't get me wrong im not saying that naruto could or didn't do the fuuton rasengan with one hand. all i'm saying is that he would now have a great amount chakra control possibly among the highest in the village to pull it off. but to me it seems like you guys think shape manipulation and nature manipulation just happen magically but in fact it using it straight up require chakra control because all it is is chakra. the reason it takes so long to get is because for the most part all the chakra control ninjas usually use is releasing just the right amount of chakra as well as possibly one or two other small things. trying to learn to do it all by oneself is probably pretty difficult which is probably why it takes so long to do.
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Old 01-04-2007, 10:35 AM   #27
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Re: has anyone noticed yet?

i also agree wit saderball but i dont kno about him having the best chakra control in the village but everything else i agree with
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Old 01-04-2007, 12:33 PM   #28
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Re: has anyone noticed yet?

Well if you think about, if has mastered teh Rasengan in its complete form to the point where he can do it in one hand, then he would have among the best in teh village since completing that jutsu took shape and nature manipulation to its highest forms. And to do that, one needs to have alot of control over their chakra as well as a "knack" as mentioned by Kakashi when dealing with merging the two for the completed form of the Rasengan. It doesn't mean that he can be as precise as Sakura is since she uses chakra control in a different fashion (which is why she has inherited the strength of the 5th).
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Old 01-04-2007, 12:35 PM   #29
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Re: has anyone noticed yet?

ok ya i was thinking about the precise chakra control so ok i agree wit yall completly
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Old 01-04-2007, 04:16 PM   #30
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Re: has anyone noticed yet?

Oh but everything is chakra control so if a ninja wanted to walk on water or a tree, is that also 100% chakra control since it requires a ninja to control chakra? But I guess I get what you guys are saying, but it was kind of hinted that Naruto had bad chakra control because he needed a clone take care of the shape manipulation as he released the chakra while he performed the Rasengan.

Maybe his chakra control did get better, but I always figured that Naruto's new jutsu relied more on pure talent than superior chakra control.
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