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Old 09-17-2009, 09:16 PM   #1
Naruto2008
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The Pledge of Allegiance

I'm a 16 year old high school student and I refuse to stand for the Pledge. My reasons are as follows:

1. I don't believe in god, and I don't believe I should have to pledge my allegiance to a country under any sort of deity in which I do not believe.

2. I think the entire concept of standing, placing your hand over your heart, and reciting a pledge every morning from the time you're 5 to the time you're 18 is absurd.

3. It is possible to love your country and love the men and women who fight and die for it without reciting the pledge of allegiance.

4. At this point the pledge is just a habit. People do it every morning without thinking about it and what it stands for. They just say it because they have said for the past "x" amount of years and don't question it.

So what is your opinion on the pledge?
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Old 09-17-2009, 09:33 PM   #2
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

Quote:
1. I don't believe in god, and I don't believe I should have to pledge my allegiance to a country under any sort of deity in which I do not believe.
I think the purpose of the pledge is to show your loyalty to your country, not for some sort of deity.

Quote:
2. I think the entire concept of standing, placing your hand over your heart, and reciting a pledge every morning from the time you're 5 to the time you're 18 is absurd.
It's not. It helps the youth to bear in mind the importance of once's loyalty to the country. It promotes nationalism, in which the young generation today finds it hard to grasp.

Quote:
3. It is possible to love your country and love the men and women who fight and die for it without reciting the pledge of allegiance.
It is. But people need to be reminded sometimes.

Quote:
4. At this point the pledge is just a habit. People do it every morning without thinking about it and what it stands for. They just say it because they have said for the past "x" amount of years and don't question it.
Likewise. But i think if you recite the pledge everyday like you really mean it, you wont find it unimportant.

Besides, what else is there to do during the flag ceremony? Saying the pledge is not important anymore is just like saying singing the national anthem's a huge waste of time, too.
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Old 09-17-2009, 11:24 PM   #3
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azumi View Post
I think the purpose of the pledge is to show your loyalty to your country, not for some sort of deity.
So if you were in the German army in 1939, and your commander made you swear allegiance to him, and by extension Hitler, you'd be cool with it?

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Originally Posted by Azumi View Post
It's not. It helps the youth to bear in mind the importance of once's loyalty to the country. It promotes nationalism, in which the young generation today finds it hard to grasp.
When I moved to Nova Scotia, I experienced something they never did in British Columbia: Playing Oh Canada every morning. I thought nothing of it. It was just a dumb reason to stand up and be bored every morning. Forced patriotism isn't real patriotism.

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Originally Posted by Azumi View Post
It is. But people need to be reminded sometimes.
You can read/watch the international news and love your country just as much, if not more, by seeing what's going on in other countries of which you are fortunately not a part.

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Originally Posted by Azumi View Post
Likewise. But i think if you recite the pledge everyday like you really mean it, you wont find it unimportant.
Then let those keeners recite it themselves every morning when they hop out of bed.

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Originally Posted by Azumi View Post
Besides, what else is there to do during the flag ceremony? Saying the pledge is not important anymore is just like saying singing the national anthem's a huge waste of time, too.
Everything looses it's importance if it become overdone, pledge or anthem, and blind ritual is off-putting to the majority of people.
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Old 09-18-2009, 05:22 PM   #4
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

I don't pledge alliance to a government I disagree with. Nothing really big about that either. Tons of people refuse to do the pledge of alliance. See Anabaptists.
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Old 09-19-2009, 10:17 PM   #5
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

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Originally Posted by Mal
So if you were in the German army in 1939, and your commander made you swear allegiance to him, and by extension Hitler, you'd be cool with it?
If I remember it right, Germany wasnt a free country then, it's under dictatorship. If I were a German on that time, I wouldnt pledge allegiance to him nor to anybody unless a caliber pistol's pointing straight on my head.

Plus, Hitler =/ = country

Quote:
When I moved to Nova Scotia, I experienced something they never did in British Columbia: Playing Oh Canada every morning. I thought nothing of it. It was just a dumb reason to stand up and be bored every morning. Forced patriotism isn't real patriotism.
Quote:
You can read/watch the international news and love your country just as much, if not more, by seeing what's going on in other countries of which you are fortunately not a part.
Quote:
Then let those keeners recite it themselves every morning when they hop out of bed.
Quote:
Everything looses it's importance if it become overdone, pledge or anthem, and blind ritual is off-putting to the majority of people.
Dont you realize pledging is done in schools and in government offices? The school's responsible in teaching the students not just in academics but also values that include love for one's country. Pledging every morning and singing the national anthem are just some of the schools' ways of promoting patriotism to students, aside from having Social Studies and History subjects as part of the curriculum and initiating school programs that have relevance to patriotism (like in our country we have annual "Buwan ng Wika [Month of Language - literally translated] and Independence Day celebration).

And dont get me wrong.. After 15 years in school, I also find pledging a boring and unnecessary habit. But you know, I've been in the service of a school, and there I realized how hard it was to teach students the value of patriotism. Today's generation is very different from ours.. (lolol not really. We're just good students before. ) Ask a student the meaning of the national anthem, and it'll just wink at you. Make them write an essay about nationalism, and they'll end up writing crap about heroes. I guess it's just right to continue the practice of pledging and singing of the national anthem, even if theyre not necessary anymore. Simple things can bring great outcomes sometimes... =D

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rednecknoy
I don't pledge alliance to a government I disagree with. Nothing really big about that either. Tons of people refuse to do the pledge of alliance. See Anabaptists.
This reminds me of The Jehova's Witnesses. They dont sing the national anthem and pledge allegiance, coz for them it's idolization and violates the 1st commandment.
I just lol'd on that.
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Old 09-20-2009, 01:52 AM   #6
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

if you dont want to stand for the pledge of allegiance i dont believe you should have to.

nationalism in itslef, is a dumb idea..... imma get shit for this i know, but listen up. our allegiance shouldn't be to our countries but our fellow man. we show this allegiance with respect and sacrifice. nationalism gives birth to racism. which will further divide us, which goes against the pledge of allegiance in the first place. we should pledge our allegiance to our fellow human and for the growth that we so finely define.

so reciting the pledge mindlessly in school, seems of little importance. since the teachers show very little significance towards its recital. just as a task that must be done. from the time your a child to young adulthood. you could even look at it as a form of brainwashing.

the flag represents the unity that our country stands. the stripes represent the original 13 colonies and the stars the states. the flag stands for our republic, which is bound to democracy. our one nation under god, is not neccasarily true. not all believe in god so it goes against what our republic stands for by forcing people to recite this verse. indivisible, merely used to demonstrate our "unity". with liberty and justice for all, but as our history, both recent and distant, shows that this is definitely not true.
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Old 09-20-2009, 12:31 PM   #7
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

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Originally Posted by Azumi View Post
This reminds me of The Jehova's Witnesses. They dont sing the national anthem and pledge allegiance, coz for them it's idolization and violates the 1st commandment.
I just lol'd on that.
It is a violation of Christianity to pledge allegiance. The pledge holds that you put your country first, which would be idolatry. I don't pledge for the same reason, except the difference is that I do not put other people before me.
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Old 09-20-2009, 07:16 PM   #8
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

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Originally Posted by Naruto2008 View Post
1. I don't believe in god, and I don't believe I should have to pledge my allegiance to a country under any sort of deity in which I do not believe.
That's cool. Swear it to something else. Like the freedom that the pledge represents. Yah yah yah, freedom to not pledge? O.k. pledge to the 400,000+ Americans who died in WWII to stomp some fascist ass. My personal opinion, is that most 16 year old's who take issue with the pledge are probably trying to be too angsty and rebellious for their own good. But since this is America, you'll get away with it.

You little shit.

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Originally Posted by Naruto2008 View Post
2. I think the entire concept of standing, placing your hand over your heart, and reciting a pledge every morning from the time you're 5 to the time you're 18 is absurd.
Yes, it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naruto2008 View Post
3. It is possible to love your country and love the men and women who fight and die for it without reciting the pledge of allegiance.
Yes, it is. But is it that big of a deal, since MOST of the men and women who fought and died for this country would want you to pledge.

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Originally Posted by Naruto2008 View Post
4. At this point the pledge is just a habit. People do it every morning without thinking about it and what it stands for. They just say it because they have said for the past "x" amount of years and don't question it.
Yes, it is. I blame the schools.

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Originally Posted by Naruto2008 View Post
So what is your opinion on the pledge?

Eh, it's not that big of a fucking deal. I haven't said it once since I graduated and even while I was in school I barely said it.






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Old 09-20-2009, 08:00 PM   #9
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

I do not get to choose.

When I was 18, I was sent to a military facility along with 299 others who came for the same reason.

They did all kinds of tests on us, you know, pissing, giving blood, checking eyesight, intelligence, etc.

In the end they told me that I will be invited to join the army for 6 to 9 months when I either finish the college or even earlier. I was chosen for special ops and I am a sniper because I am just that awesome. I just need the codename Wolf now.

But fuck, I'd rather not go to army at all. It's filled with all kinds of trash. I'll be in a 10 men team though, so I am saved of 50 men unit who are just lame infantry.
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Old 09-20-2009, 08:25 PM   #10
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

First off: Mal you immediately forfeited any and all chance of winning this debate after you invoked Godwin's Law. Congrats.

Secondly:

I agree that the Pledge is a tired, outdated tradition. It doesn't strike anyone else as exceptionally odd that all across our nation, children are taught every day to swear allegiance to the USA? Young kids don't even know what most of it means, let alone understand the connotations of such an act. (Granted, it is true what the Supreme Court constantly rules: The Pledge is a pledge, not an oath. {This strikes down RNB's beef about it being anti-Christian.}) That's straight badonky right there. One of the beautiful things ABOUT our country is that we can protest it while still being American patriots (see flag burning arguments online).

Another thing: I can see the "It's not a big deal" argument popping up soon so I want to nip that in the bud now: Being forced to say the PoA is an act of exclusion and a form of peer pressure. This is exceptionally alarming when you remember that it is adolescents who are being forced to say it. Furthermore, if it "is not a big deal" and the PoA is just a repetitive custom that people do every day, why is there such a big hubub about making sure they do it? If the recitation is done without thought, it loses its purpose, as it does not foster love of country or patriotism.

What makes me more upset is that it has "under God" in it. Are we not a free, non-religiously affiliated country? I believe so. Indeed, those two words were only added in the 60s to separate us idealistically from those "Godless ruskies." I call shenanigans because saying "under God" only further excludes others.




...But for it being a habit? That's a personal problem. Anything that is repeated can become "just a habit" and such actions are dangerous, even for words. This tells me that you do not live in the moment and just set your brain on autopilot. I can understand this behavior, I do it myself! You have to find what is interesting about any repeated actions and keep your concentration. You could mess up a project or any number of other things if you just set your brain on passive.
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Old 09-27-2009, 01:49 AM   #11
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

1. Since it sounds like you love your country but not God maybe you could just say the pre 1954 version of the PoA. "under God" wasn't added to the PoA until 1954.

2. I agree.

3. I agree.

4. You're right about it being a habit. Thats the whole point. Its "public" education. Its brainwashing. When something is repeated over and over and over nonstop it influences people more than they're conscious of. If you were the government and were gonna extort money, life, and liberty from your people in order to ensure your survival, wouldn't you find a way to propagandize/brainwash your citizens from early development to adulthood?
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Old 09-27-2009, 05:39 AM   #12
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

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Originally Posted by Naruto2008 View Post
1. I don't believe in god, and I don't believe I should have to pledge my allegiance to a country under any sort of deity in which I do not believe.
Fine you dont believe in God but that doesn't change the fact that the foundations of america are based in christianity. In 1954 Dwight D. Eisenhower gave the reason he approved the adding of "Under God" to the pledge and its more true today than ever before. "In this way we are reaffirming the transcendence of religious faith in America's heritage and future; in this way we shall constantly strengthen those spiritual weapons which forever will be our country's most powerful resource in peace and war." - Dwight D. Eisenhower The very core of the idea of america is firmly rooted in the christian moral code its the reason y most of our government buildings have God or the ten commandments plastered all over them. Its also no coincidence that the farther america pulls away from it's christian roots the harder life is getting for it. Just look around you our prisons are filling up with all manner of criminals we are on the verge of bankruptcy and we have enemies closing in from all sides. America has put down it's spiritual weapons and we are starting to feel the results on america as a whole because our guns missles etc.. cant defend us against the real threats in the world.

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Originally Posted by Naruto2008 View Post
2. I think the entire concept of standing, placing your hand over your heart, and reciting a pledge every morning from the time you're 5 to the time you're 18 is absurd.
It shows a commitment to the ideals of america and provides a source of unity. It also sums up what it means to being american. Believe it or not Liberty and Justice is not that common in the world and its slowly slipping away here in america because people like you cant find 5 mins out of ure day to state your allegiance for a country that has given u far to many rights and liberties to list in this post. People like you really need to spend a couple years traveling the world so you can see with your own eyes just how well u got it in america. Once you do you will gladly say the pledge with pride because you will understand just how lucky you are to be american.

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Originally Posted by Naruto2008 View Post
3. It is possible to love your country and love the men and women who fight and die for it without reciting the pledge of allegiance.
Give me a break man, loving america is not about serving in the military. In fact i have met many soliders in the military that are not there to serve america they are there for their own selfish reasons. The sad truth is many of the soliders are there for the check or adventure or they just enjoy fighting the list goes on and on. So if you want to gauge how patriotic someone is don't use their serving in the military as your one and only criteria for how patriotic they are.

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4. At this point the pledge is just a habit. People do it every morning without thinking about it and what it stands for. They just say it because they have said for the past "x" amount of years and don't question it.
Believe it or not there are still quite a few people that take pride in saying the pledge every single morning because they understand how much blood sweat and tears have been shed for it. Even if you dont support the government you should still say the pledge with pride because america is not the government its We The People the government is just our servant. In other words when you say the pledge ure not pledging to the government you are pledging your allegiance to america and the idea of america. So buck up and say your pledge with pride because america is special you wont find another country like it anywhere in the world it's well worth that few mins it takes to say the pledge in the morning.
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Old 09-27-2009, 06:54 AM   #13
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

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Originally Posted by Shrike View Post
I do not get to choose.

When I was 18, I was sent to a military facility along with 299 others who came for the same reason.

They did all kinds of tests on us, you know, pissing, giving blood, checking eyesight, intelligence, etc.

In the end they told me that I will be invited to join the army for 6 to 9 months when I either finish the college or even earlier. I was chosen for special ops and I am a sniper because I am just that awesome. I just need the codename Wolf now.

But fuck, I'd rather not go to army at all. It's filled with all kinds of trash. I'll be in a 10 men team though, so I am saved of 50 men unit who are just lame infantry.
So you're either South Korean or the cliche antagonist from an anime/manga?
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Old 09-27-2009, 11:47 AM   #14
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

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Originally Posted by prez420 View Post
Fine you dont believe in God but that doesn't change the fact that the foundations of america are based in christianity. In 1954 Dwight D. Eisenhower gave the reason he approved the adding of "Under God" to the pledge and its more true today than ever before. "In this way we are reaffirming the transcendence of religious faith in America's heritage and future; in this way we shall constantly strengthen those spiritual weapons which forever will be our country's most powerful resource in peace and war." - Dwight D. Eisenhower The very core of the idea of america is firmly rooted in the christian moral code its the reason y most of our government buildings have God or the ten commandments plastered all over them. Its also no coincidence that the farther america pulls away from it's christian roots the harder life is getting for it. Just look around you our prisons are filling up with all manner of criminals we are on the verge of bankruptcy and we have enemies closing in from all sides. America has put down it's spiritual weapons and we are starting to feel the results on america as a whole because our guns missles etc.. cant defend us against the real threats in the world.
No.

Morality doesn't belong to christianity. And America was founded with no religious affiliation. Read DA's link if you want a more in depth source that shows just how wrong you are on that. And no, the problems we face today are in no way related to lack of religion. That's ridiculous. But this isn't the topic to be discussing that in.



Quote:
It shows a commitment to the ideals of america and provides a source of unity. It also sums up what it means to being american. Believe it or not Liberty and Justice is not that common in the world and its slowly slipping away here in america because people like you cant find 5 mins out of ure day to state your allegiance for a country that has given u far to many rights and liberties to list in this post. People like you really need to spend a couple years traveling the world so you can see with your own eyes just how well u got it in america. Once you do you will gladly say the pledge with pride because you will understand just how lucky you are to be american.
No, again. By that logic, everyone who says the pledge is committed to the ideals of america. Obviously that isn't the case.

Also, liberty is allowing people the freedom to choose what they want to do so long as they're not conflicting with the rights of others. It doesn't cause anyone any harm whatsoever if people choose not to say a stupid pledge.

I personally always said it, but I never gave it much thought at the time. I wouldn't question the patriotism of someone who chose not to say it though, because that's stupid. There is nothing unpatriotic about choosing to exercise the liberties afforded to us. Don't be silly.
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Old 09-27-2009, 10:58 PM   #15
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance

prez420, the Founding Fathers fought and stood for belief in democracy, not Christian morals. They argued with each other for years to make the perfect union of laws for the United States. The British weren't pushing religion down their throats, they were oppressing their HUMAN RIGHTS. ...And how exactly does mumbling a half-hearted oath every morning give them any honor? How is that more patriotic than keeping the American flag out of the rain?

We're the goddamn USA and so many people have died for us just to have the FREEDOM to say or not say what we want. There is nothing more American than saying what you want.
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