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Old 02-07-2008, 01:36 AM   #1666
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Re: VS Thread [With Manga Spoilers!]

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Originally Posted by SMFox1987 View Post
Alrighty then, let's get this show on the road.
Sasuke vs. Itachi
location: Uchiha Village


I am glad to see that you have taken the high road and given the perks for Itachi as well. Yes, I do believe Itachi is faster than Sasuke, his speed on that last attack that rammed Sasuke into the wall was nothing short of impressive. Also, the showdown with the Shuriken proved that his speed is enough to keep up with Sasuke when Sasuke has enhancements such as those seals to make grabbing Shuriken easier. The speed that would be required to pull out as many shuriken as Itachi did is again..nothing short of amazing. As you said, Sasuke has his chidori variations, but I will address that farther down.
Yes I agree Itachi is faster as shown in the fight & shuriken throwing contest.

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Originally Posted by SMFox1987 View Post
0.0 Where'd all that information come from? I think I already have a good guess though, so let me go ahead and counter that. If you'll look back to before Itachi uses the Amaterasu, you will see that the reason he closed his eyes was merely to bring out the MS again. He has already shown us that he does not like to keep it up when not in use since it furthers his blindness, and he did not know that he was going to have to use Amaterasu at the time to break free from the meaty walls of the stomach around them. I think it's a very safe and logical assumption that after torturing Sasuke he turned it off.
O damn you got me lol. I just checked it Itachi did have his MS turned off.

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Originally Posted by SMFox1987 View Post
As such, that 'delay, was merely him activating the MS again, which he has always closed his eyes when he does. As for the way the Amaterasu works, and the 'buildup' of chakra, all of that is pure assumption with no actual backing...if you do have some though, by all means share it.
Yes you're right it is an assumption about the chakra buildup. Though in order to create a jutsu doesn't one first need to mold the chakra to fit the design of the jutsu. Itachi would need to combine his normal chakra with fire base chakra before executing the jutsu. The act of molding the chakra of such a high level dojutsu wouldn't be instant in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by SMFox1987 View Post
While Itachi might not be able to copy the snake techniques, I wouldn't say it's impossible for him to similarly copy Sasuke's own chidori techniques and use them as a counter. What could would Sasuke's Chidori Nagashi do if it was met with an equal and similar force? We already know that techniques can be copied and followed in the heat of battle and then used against the enemy, Kakashi has displayed this many times. To say someone on Itachi's level could not...would be insulting I think.
Hmmm... Interesting point about copying Chidori didn't think of that hehe.This is very much possible & reasonable. This is why Sasuke wouldn't be able to use the same jutsu more then 1-2 times. However Itachi hasn't seen all variations of Chidori yet so Sasuke could still use some Chidori variations but not for long. Both know the Uchiha fire jutsu so they'd cancel each other out in that respect.

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Originally Posted by SMFox1987 View Post
For the Cursed seal, I think that brings it into an endurance game. I am sure that Itachi knows more than enough to understand the side effects of the cursed seal. Even Sasuke has admitted that, despite his mastery over it, he can not maintain it indefinitely as the slow drain of it strains his body and eats away at him. This is why he is constantly bouncing between using it and not. To that end, it would just be a matter of timing and prediction..something the Sharingan excels at, in getting around the Cursed Seal. If nothing else, Itachi can merely go on the defenseive and conserve his energy while Sasuke burns himself out.
Hmm... how to counter this... lol. Hmm.. Itachi can analyze the timing between transformations in these short bust of power. Yes I agree considering the type of genius Itachi is. I think CS transformations would be better used in a more defensive strategy for Sasuke. To grant him small burst of speed to evade attacks or burst of strength to overpower Itachi if Itachi happens to grab him.

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Originally Posted by SMFox1987 View Post
Already answered this one above. But I would like to add something. Sasuke has been training for three years and made incredible leaps and bounds in that time, I won't deny that

...But why does everyone assume that Itachi, someone who prides himself on his capacity and his ambition to surpass Madara, just sat on his ass for three years and did nothing? Somehow...I just can't picture that. Itachi was training too...not in the way that Sasuke was obviously, and certainly not devoting every waking moment of every day to this cause, but he is not at the exact same level he was at three years ago; he too would have gotten stronger over the TS. And as such, so too would his capacity and abilities have grown, allowing for more of those 'oh so limited' techniques that everyone paints the Ama and Tsukuyomi to be. I doubt he is barely capable of using 2-3 of those a day at this point.
Granted Itachi may have been training as well. I can't even bring up Sasuke's training with Orochimaru was a defense when comparing training partners. Sense its been found out that Itachi not only knew of Madara but was trained by him. It's possible Itachi would train with Madara to further enhance his skills during the time skip. Considering enemies like Jiraiya were proving to be troublesome. Though Sasuke is doing an awesome job if this is indeed the case. So like you said it's safe to Say Sasuke gained more after the time skip. Though Itachi's chakra capacity could have risen as well sense the time skip . Allowing him more MS jutsu use. Though I have to argue this point; over time MS losses it's light so to speak. Would it be wise for Itachi to simply practice his MS jutsu's so he'd be able to use them more in battle. Considering it'll hasten his blindness.

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Originally Posted by SMFox1987 View Post
No problems man, I thought you'd just abandoned me but no worries.

I would like to add one more step to this debate... Somehow, I think this has been seriously overlooked in the past, but I think it could be key in Itachi's capabilities. Everyone just assumes that he only has fire techniques when, in truth, he has been running around with a fully developed sharingan since he was what? Eight years old?
This is true Itachi may not be limited to just fire jutsu. However Sasuke has shown us more verity in jutsu when compared to Itachi at this point. We also have not seen the full extent of Orochimaru's training. Orochimaru was a guy who's main ambition was to master all known jutsu. I man of this caliber must have known an extraordinary amount of different types of jutsu. Considering this & the fact he had Sasuke as a student; it's very much possible that Orochimaru was able to train Sasuke by simply sparing with him repeatedly throwing all combat type jutsu Orochimaru would have known. Giving Sasuke in my opinion the edge in verity of jutsu.

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Originally Posted by SMFox1987 View Post
Itachi has proven himself to have a capable arsenal of jutsu, including the water based ones he displayed when they first encountered Kakashi in part one..I believe he showed two of them at the time. So I imagine after this many years, and especially under the tutelage of Uchiha Madara...a man with the Sharingan who has been around for well over one hundred years (you had better believe that this sob has a LOT of techniques to show), Itachi has quite an arsenal himself.
& there goes the Madara trainer idea dammit I knew it was coming hehehe. Only thing I could really say is we can only speculate on what Madara knew. I can't seriously imply Orochimaru would have known more jutsu then a Sharingan users who's been around for over 100 years.


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Originally Posted by SMFox1987 View Post
Furthermore, we are all assuming that he also does not have another natural elemental affinity. All Uchiha's are gifted with a fire affinity, however, like Sasuke has shown us, that does not mean they can not still possess another one that is not inherent to their clan. Sasuke's in this case, was lightning. Who's to say Itachi is any different? He too may ver well have his own natural affinity aside from the flames the Uchiha pride themselves upon.

I rest my case ^.^
Yes I agree it's very much possible that Itachi could potentially have a natural affinity for another element. Which element it is we can only speculate.
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1) There may well be some literary or map correlation between the Uzumaki and Ireland.
Check out this awesome manga called Magi.

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Old 02-07-2008, 07:43 PM   #1667
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Re: VS Thread [With Manga Spoilers!]

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Originally Posted by SMFox1987 View Post
How many variations of Chidori have we seen? You make it sound like he's got a wide array when he only has what? Three? Chidori, Chidori Nagashi, and then the ability to create a blade of pure lightning through shape/nature manipulation that he can extend at will to great lengths. That's all...and that's if that blade is even considered Chidori. In that respect...you'd be saying any lightning natured jutsu that he uses is some version of chidori which I don't think is true. So there aren't very many for him to 'hide'.
Sasuke could use Nagashi to add lighting element to his attacks as well use it to momentarily stun Itachi. Leaving an opening in Itachi defense.


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Originally Posted by SMFox1987 View Post
Fair enough, but this also allows me to take CS out of the offensive arsenal as far as timing is concerned. If Sasuke only uses it for brief bursts of power defensively with the occational offense, it greatly reduces it's overall potential use against Itachi.
I wouldn't say reduces the overall potential. My idea for Sasuke winning is that he'll be able to out last Itachi. If Sasuke were to use CS transformations continuely it'll only hasten chakra fatigue. So using CS in a defensive manner is actually a smart thing for Sasuke to do.

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Originally Posted by SMFox1987 View Post
Not necessarily. Who says you have to use a specific high powered jutsu to build chakra capacity? In fact, who says you have to use the MS at all in training...He could very well be doing Kage Bunshin training...we know he already knows the technique. Even if he can't use it anywhere near to the extent as Naruto, he could still maintain a good 100 or so clones to greatly advance his training. The use of Kage Bunshin alone would enhance chakra capacity from the constant strain and drain on the chakra coils.
Fair enough he could use different training methods to try & boost his overall chakra supply.

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Originally Posted by SMFox1987 View Post
I addressed this in one of the replies above; There aren't that many variations of Chidori, and Itachi has shown himself very capable of a variety of jutsu as well. As you said, has has displayed Kage Bunshin; Exploding Kage Bunshin, advanced Water techniques, advanced fire techniques, genjutsu, genjutsu reversals which put the user of a genjutsu into your place and in their own genjutsu...etc etc. As far as versatility goes, that shows me that Itachi has shown a more wide array of techniques thus far. What's a few Chidori variations (albeit powerful ones) compared to the many different uses and types that Itachi has displayed?
& Sasuke has displayed advanced lighting techniques, advanced fire techniques, genjutsu, genjutsu reversals in a way in the current fight. Not to mention clones, replacements, & some pretty wire tricks. O yeah did I mention Sasuke could also summon snakes. I don't remember a time where Itachi has ever summoned anything. Sasuke summoned Manda in the brink of a mini nuke(for lack of a better term) showing Sasuke is fully capable of summoning some of the more larger snakes that Orochimaru use to play with(Forest of death as an example). Itachi would need to waste chakra deposing of these snakes.

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Originally Posted by SMFox1987 View Post
*dances* Sorry for falling asleep on you last night. Not quite sure how it happened. But if it makes you feel better, because of the position I slept in I felt like shit all morning.
No worries man I know it was late. I just want to say it's a little hard to argue for Sasuke without using plot-nojutsu or Kishi fandom. I'm trying though. I kind of forsee a clash of jutsu happening soon. Amaterasu vs. "that jutsu" they clash & cancel each other out. Pure speculation though hehehe
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1) There may well be some literary or map correlation between the Uzumaki and Ireland.
Check out this awesome manga called Magi.

Wanna join me come and play, but I mite shoot you in your face. Bombs and bullets will do the trick. What we need here is a little bit of panic! ~ Get Jinxed

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Old 02-07-2008, 08:48 PM   #1668
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Re: VS Thread [With Manga Spoilers!]

Ahh wall o text alert.. lol

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Originally Posted by SMFox1987 View Post
I won't argue that he can add lightning nature to his various techniques...but that still doesn't make every technique 'chidori'. The chidori itself was a lightning technique..does that mean we call every lightning natured technique chidori? I think that's an over-dramatization of it if you ask me...since everyone runs around saying ZOMG LIGHTNING HE JUST USED CHIDORI!! It tends to hype up the regular lightning techniques...If you ask me, while lightning enhancements are good, they are really no different than any other kind. So it adds a paralytic effect to your attacks...that's nice...but it's not a zomg end game type thing. It's just another minor boost imo.
Yeah I can agree not every lighting based jutsu should be considered a chidori variation. That still doesn't disprove the idea of Sasuke being arguably the strongest lighting user we've seen to date.


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Originally Posted by SMFox1987 View Post
People need to accept the fact that there are other lightning techniques that don't go by the name Chidori...general lightning maniuplation does not = chidori. And that also means general lightning manipulation does not mean every lightning jutsu he uses is that same high ranked super jutsu that Kakashi originally taught him. Granted Chidori Nagashi is by far a much better technique...but again, these can all be copied and ass you said, they probably wouldn't work more than once against Itachi. So unless Sasuke is capable of killing him with the first one, he loses this ability.
Again I agree which is why in my last post changed it to advanced lighting techniques instead of Chidori. The copy argument damn that sharingan. However any other elemental jutsu Itachi may know that aren't related to MS Sasuke could also copying.


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Originally Posted by SMFox1987 View Post
Ahh but it does. I understand what you mean by conserving it and using it defensively, but if you can only use it in such a way, then it limits it's overall potential. For example: You have an ability that is awesome for both offense and defense....now cut offense from the equation...the technique just lost half of it's effectiveness and potential. Still great defense...but that's it. And even if used defensively, it would still slowly drain him every time he popped it up.
I think we both gave our opinions on the CS at this point. There really isn't much more I could add except that if Sasuke were to somehow stun(Nagashi) or restrain(snakes) Itachi he could then transform to boost the damage of his known jutsu. Potentially leading to a kill hit.


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Originally Posted by SMFox1987 View Post
I won't argue that Sasuke has a wide array of techniques too...I'm just arguing that Itachi would logically have a great many more. The overall variety Itachi has provides more utility than the limited amount Sasuke has.
Damn Madara trainer. However as stated above Sasuke could also copy these jutsu.

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Originally Posted by SMFox1987 View Post
We've already seen that they are at even as far as genjutsu goes, provided we discount the Tsukuyomi. So again, I won't try to go into that. So let's just cut genjutsu from the fight.
Fair enough considering CS2 just broke Tsukuyomi.

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Originally Posted by SMFox1987 View Post
They both have the same advanced fire techniques with the exception of the Amaterasu which I'm willing to bet my life is far superior seeing as even Zetsu has said it is 'legendary' and was excited that he might finally get to see it. Granted it is a heavy drain, I won't deny that, but again, since the majority of their fire techniques are the same, like the genjutsu, we can cut it out.
Isn't "that jutsu" also fire based when looking at the initial hand signs? I say we'll have a clash of each fighters strongest fire jutsu canceling eachother out. Pure speculation lol. Though I don't think Amaterasu is laser vision nor does it instantly inflame its target. Though I already bought up the idea of blocking Itachi's line of sight with snakes. Sense we're in the Uchiha Village Sasuke could also duck behind a house.

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Originally Posted by SMFox1987 View Post
As far as clones and replacements go, I personally think Itachi is superior, but we do not know the capability of those 'snake clones' Sasuke has made. I imagine it's just a basic genjutsu to make them look like the real him but who knows. Itachi did say genjutsu. So in all honesty, is it even a clone? He never said 'Snake clone no jutsu" or anything did he? All we heard was Genjutsu before the illusion disappeared.
Yeah exploding clones is no laughing matter at all. Though if Itachi were to grab a genjutsu snake clone as you called it couldn't the snake restrain Itachi's movement? I do remember Sasuke also using regular clones as well in the past.

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And then we finally come to the summonings. Manda is out of the picture since he's dead, and even then, he wouldn't fit in the Uchiha base. Same with those gargantuan snakes. So that limits it to the smaller ones that he uses for this fight. Defensively he has shown himself to be capable at using them as shields, but summoning takes a fair bit of chakra. We've already seen this. He could only keep it up for so long. Like his CS2, it would steadily burn away at his reserves and what he has left.
Of course I agree Manda can't be used. I was just using him as an example of Sasuke's summoning capability. We are fighting in the Uchiha village right? This is out doors so gargantuan snakes can be used . Though how much chakra would Itachi need to use in order to destroy these snakes?


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Originally Posted by SMFox1987 View Post
In truth, with all Sasuke has, Itachi has a counter. Likewise, with the exception of a couple specific techniques and the MS jutsu, Sasuke has a relative counter for everything of his as well. So it comes down to endurance and speed. Speed, Itachi is greater, as you have already agreed to that. So who could last longer? Sasuke has regenerative powers, but do those effect how quickly he replenishes chakra as well? His wounds perhaps, but he would still run out of chakra faster. Itachi is older, and I would imagine has more chakra as well seeing as he likes to use shadow clones and even pumps them up enough to make them explode.
Speed Itachi wins no doubt about it. It may not replenish his chakra at rapid rates though could heal injuries taken to the body. Which would allow Sasuke to continue the fight. Even though Itachi is older Sasuke has combined souls with Orochimaru. Which granted him this healing factor & is not doubt the reason why Sasuke has such a large chakra supply. Itachi is just one body/spirit giving me the impression that Sasuke has more chakra. Yeah throwing kamakaze clones at Sasuke would be awsome. Though Sasuke could lessen the damage by transforming & using snakes to block himself as shown in the fight with Deidara.
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1) There may well be some literary or map correlation between the Uzumaki and Ireland.
Check out this awesome manga called Magi.

Wanna join me come and play, but I mite shoot you in your face. Bombs and bullets will do the trick. What we need here is a little bit of panic! ~ Get Jinxed
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Old 02-07-2008, 09:39 PM   #1669
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Re: VS Thread [With Manga Spoilers!]

Damn Itachi & his superior Taijutsu ability. Your right Itachi would be able to trick Sasuke more often lol. About the Tsukuyomi opening; It looked to me like when Sasuke broke the dojutsu Itachi was hurt as he grabbed his eye. Not leaving much of an opening at all as Itachi was also stunned.

MS vs CS2 and Snakes hmm... which will win in this case. Well one MS dojutsu was already broken by the CS2. The argument then is Sasuke's ability to block Amaterasu using snakes. I think this is possible as he doesn't require hand signs for allot of his snake summonings. We simply don't know how Amaterasu is executed though. So I can only imply that its not laser vision lol.

As you can see I'm running out of things to say on Sasuke's behalf & am pretty much willing to give the debate to you. As pointing out Sasuke's un-known potential, Kishi's fandom, plot-no-jutsu, & current unknown ability would be pure speculation at this point. I gotta say it is a nice debate & I've been having a blast going back & forth with you on this SMFox
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1) There may well be some literary or map correlation between the Uzumaki and Ireland.
Check out this awesome manga called Magi.

Wanna join me come and play, but I mite shoot you in your face. Bombs and bullets will do the trick. What we need here is a little bit of panic! ~ Get Jinxed
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Old 02-07-2008, 10:05 PM   #1670
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Re: VS Thread [With Manga Spoilers!]

Okay SMFox, now I get a shot. C'mon! Name your debate!(still possible for me to win, that means no Sasuke vs. Ino for you) XD
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Old 02-07-2008, 10:12 PM   #1671
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Re: VS Thread [With Manga Spoilers!]

Naw way! I can't debate on the side that I know wouldn't win! I just can't do it.

Besides, I said none with obvious answers where I'd lose by default. XP

Let's put it this way: you know me, it's like me debating for Sharingan in a Sharingan vs. Byakuagn debate.
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Old 02-07-2008, 10:14 PM   #1672
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Re: VS Thread [With Manga Spoilers!]

No prob. I've got time...too much...lonely time...'-_-
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Old 02-08-2008, 07:29 AM   #1673
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Re: VS Thread [With Manga Spoilers!]

What about these fights?

1. Kakashi vs. Jiraiya (R.I.P.)

and

2. Nidaime vs. Kisame

What do you think?
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Old 02-08-2008, 01:48 PM   #1674
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Re: VS Thread [With Manga Spoilers!]

Nidaime vs Kisame? Hasn't that been done several times already?

Someone dared to have Kakashi face off against Jiraiya? o_O Jiraiya would curbstomp Kakashi. Hermit Mode is overkill, and won't be needed.

I has a fite!!!

Deidara vs Jiraiya

I'm sure you all think I'm nuts. But keep in mind, that this fight is in character. So Dei wouldn't pull out C3/4 at the very start, and Jiraiya wouldn't pull out HM nor Gamabunta at the start either.

Now, knowing Dei, he'll most likely know of Jiraiya's reputation, and take the fight seriously. So he'd quickly head to the skies. Knowing Jiraiya, he'd see he'd need a way to attack Dei from the ground, and Dei is in the air, so he'd eventually bring out a large toad, of Gamabunta himself. If things get rough, I see Jiraiya using Hermit Mode. Now, my question is, which is faster? C4 of frog song genjutsu?
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Old 02-08-2008, 02:03 PM   #1675
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Re: VS Thread [With Manga Spoilers!]

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Originally Posted by SMFox1987 View Post
Bunta could always just eat him ^.^
Is Bunta fast enough, though? He's a huge ass toad. He may seem fast against other large bijuu/summons, but Dei, to Bunat, is a spec who flies and is VERY good at evading and attacking at once. He did it against Gaara and his huge arsenal of sand...
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Old 02-08-2008, 03:00 PM   #1676
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Re: VS Thread [With Manga Spoilers!]

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Is Bunta fast enough, though? He's a huge ass toad. He may seem fast against other large bijuu/summons, but Dei, to Bunat, is a spec who flies and is VERY good at evading and attacking at once. He did it against Gaara and his huge arsenal of sand...
he could always blast him with that water jutsu its kinda big so it might get to him even if hes running fast
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Old 02-08-2008, 03:01 PM   #1677
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Re: VS Thread [With Manga Spoilers!]

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he could always blast him with that water jutsu its kinda big so it might get to him even if hes running fast
I'd like to think Deidara on his flying bird is faster than a large ball of water.

Edit: I saw what you did thar, SMF.
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Old 02-08-2008, 03:42 PM   #1678
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Re: VS Thread [With Manga Spoilers!]

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I'd like to think Deidara on his flying bird is faster than a large ball of water.

Edit: I saw what you did thar, SMF.
ohh yea the birds lol mabey the tounge or the sword is freaking huge and he spits fire sometimes so possible
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Old 02-08-2008, 03:44 PM   #1679
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Re: VS Thread [With Manga Spoilers!]

Right, so if Jiraiya does bring out Bunta, Dei would most likely see his tiny bombs won't do much. So he'd bring out C3 or C4. :O And lord knows only Kyuuby chakra and raiton can withstand those.
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Old 02-08-2008, 09:36 PM   #1680
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Re: VS Thread [With Manga Spoilers!]

dei can always aim for jiraiya but if he goes hermit mode it might be different but i really couldnt tell if it made him stronger in the manga because it just gave him 2 smart toads thats it but i would have a feeling he would loss his arm again
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Last edited by hippiematt; 02-08-2008 at 09:41 PM.
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