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Old 05-21-2008, 12:29 AM   #2221
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Re: VS Thread [With Manga Spoilers!]

NNJ for me.

Shodaime vs Itachi
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Old 05-21-2008, 04:12 AM   #2222
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Re: VS Thread [With Manga Spoilers!]

I guess I will go with Shodaime ......... It is hard , though
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Old 05-21-2008, 04:43 AM   #2223
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Re: VS Thread [With Manga Spoilers!]

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Originally Posted by Shikamaru2007;
I guess I will go with Shodaime ......... It is hard , though
It is difficult because, Itachi rocks hard. However, I'd have to go with the 1st as well. He was the man. So long as the 1st could withstand Itachis Genjutsu.

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I agree with Namikaze ... She doesn't stand a Chance against Serious Cool Jiraiya
we miss u J-Man
Here, here. I miss the J-man too. I Just reread the Jiraiya v Pein fight, Epic. 10X better than the Uchiha battle.
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Old 05-21-2008, 06:59 AM   #2224
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Re: VS Thread [With Manga Spoilers!]

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Here, here. I miss the J-man too. I Just reread the Jiraiya v Pein fight, Epic. 10X better than the Uchiha battle.
Well , We can't say it was 10X Better ... but , It was as cool as Uchiha's Battle .... Damn , I just need more of That Serious Jiraiya ...
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:31 PM   #2225
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Re: VS Thread [With Manga Spoilers!]

Itachi vs Shodaime? Itachi. If he isn't holding back? Itachi. We know Shodaime beat Madara, but we don't know exactly how it happened, and I SERIOUSLY doubt that Madara had that advanced technique he displayed against Shino and others, during his Shodaime fight. I somehow doubt Shodaime's wood would be effective against Itachi's katons. And since, you know, fire burns wood and all...

Anyway, Shodaime also has his dark genjutsu (the name escapes me), which COULD be effective. However, Itachi's seriously advanced Sharingan would most likely overcome it, since a three tomoe Sharingan, let alone a STRONG one that has MS, can see through all genjutsu. So that leaves Shodaime with his ability to put bijuus away, which, would be useless here. I mean, unless Itachi busts out some new Sharingan Haxxed Bijuu, then Shodaime's ability is useless here. Itachi has very fast movement, fast movement that we have yet to see Shodaime display, so we can't automatically assume he can, just because he 'defeated' Madara WAY back in the day. MS > anything Shodaime has shown.
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:48 PM   #2226
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Re: VS Thread [With Manga Spoilers!]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeyM1979;
Itachi vs Shodaime? Itachi. If he isn't holding back? Itachi. We know Shodaime beat Madara, but we don't know exactly how it happened, and I SERIOUSLY doubt that Madara had that advanced technique he displayed against Shino and others, during his Shodaime fight. I somehow doubt Shodaime's wood would be effective against Itachi's katons. And since, you know, fire burns wood and all...

Anyway, Shodaime also has his dark genjutsu (the name escapes me), which COULD be effective. However, Itachi's seriously advanced Sharingan would most likely overcome it, since a three tomoe Sharingan, let alone a STRONG one that has MS, can see through all genjutsu. So that leaves Shodaime with his ability to put bijuus away, which, would be useless here. I mean, unless Itachi busts out some new Sharingan Haxxed Bijuu, then Shodaime's ability is useless here. Itachi has very fast movement, fast movement that we have yet to see Shodaime display, so we can't automatically assume he can, just because he 'defeated' Madara WAY back in the day. MS > anything Shodaime has shown.
How the 1st would have handled Susano'o and its two power-ups would be interesting. As for fire beating wood, Shodaime was a big time water user as well. Madara is apparently a shadow of his former self. When he fought the 1st, his stomach was still full of fire, he had EMS, and the Kyuubi. Madara was pretty strong when they battled. EMS>MS. Itachi is hell strong though, I need to see what else made Shodaime so great. He had to have some kick ass ninjutsu and his bloodline limit wouldn't have stopped with just growing plants. I bet he has some serious offense we haven't seen..

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Old 05-21-2008, 01:00 PM   #2227
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Re: VS Thread [With Manga Spoilers!]

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Originally Posted by Matthekage View Post
How the 1st would have handled Susano'o and its two power-ups would be interesting.
He hasn't shown anything to handle either, quite frankly. Tsukuyomi would rape him, although I'm not so sure about Itachi's regular genjutsu. Amatesaru would burn everything around, especially Shodaime's wood. And Susanoo is just overkill. I doubt it'd even get to that, but Susanoo would ZOMGWTF rape Shodaime.

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As for fire beating wood, Shodaime was a big time water user as well.
When has it been stated or implied or shown that Shodaime is a big time water user? We know he uses wood, we also know Nidaime is the big time water user, not Shodaime. I mean, I might be wrong here, but if I am, would you be kind enough to link me to some evidence of Shodaime being a big time water user? Also, Amatesaru > any water techniques we've seen.

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Madara is apparently a shadow of his former self. When he fought the 1st, his stomach was still full of fire
His stomach was full of selfishness. That's not the will of fire. That's the will of assness.

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he had EMS, and the Kyuubi.
Yeah, and the name of the next chapter is called The Planned Battle, or something along those lines. That coupled with how Madara implied that he allowed Shodaime to think he was dead means he may not have fought at full power intentionally. Also, Kyuubi wasn't much of a factor in that battle, since Shodaime had hax to put Kyuubi away. That same hax ability that would prove useless against Itachi.

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Madara was pretty strong when they battled.
Really? You saw the fight and how everything went down?

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Originally Posted by Matthekage View Post
EMS>MS.
Yeah, and Rinnegan is supposed to be > MS/EMS, yet we've not seen it. EMS hasn't shown anything that would mean it's > MS, other than restoring vision. And in this case, a versus fight, Itachi doesn't need his vision restored, since he's used all of his MS techniques just fine, only going blind when he was at his very end.

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Itachi is hell strong though, I need to see what else made Shodaime so great. He had to have some kick ass ninjutsu.
Until proven/shown otherwise, he just uses some wood techniques, not too far from what Yamato has shown, has a darkness genjutsu that can be overcome by Itachi, and the ability to put down bijuu, which again, is useless against Itachi.

Frankly, Shodaime is a bad match against Itachi. Mainly because we know much more about what Itachi is fully capable of, and since Kishi hasn't bothered showing us just how uber Shodaime was, then I'll take that as a sign that he wasn't all that uber and Godly to begin with. Maybe in his time he was, but times have changed.
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Old 05-21-2008, 01:13 PM   #2228
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Re: VS Thread [With Manga Spoilers!]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeyM1979;
When has it been stated or implied or shown that Shodaime is a big time water user? We know he uses wood, we also know Nidaime is the big time water user, not Shodaime. I mean, I might be wrong here, but if I am, would you be kind enough to link me to some evidence of Shodaime being a big time water user? Also, Amatesaru > any water techniques we've seen.
Yeah, ok. It doesn't say that he is a big time user. That's just an assumption based on his level. Though it can be assumed that he had mastered water to be able to use it to create wood, can't it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeyM1979;
His stomach was full of selfishness. That's not the will of fire. That's the will of assness.
My point was more that he was in his youth and determined.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeyM1979;
Yeah, and the name of the next chapter is called The Planned Battle, or something along those lines. That coupled with how Madara implied that he allowed Shodaime to think he was dead means he may not have fought at full power intentionally. Also, Kyuubi wasn't much of a factor in that battle, since Shodaime had hax to put Kyuubi away. That same hax ability that would prove useless against Itachi.
Now, this is an assumption as well. Other than Madara being mistaken for dead there is no evidence that he through the fight or didn't fight at full power. It was for the leadership of the village and the respect of his clan.

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Originally Posted by MikeyM1979;
Really? You saw the fight and how everything went down?
LMAO. Obviously not, though you sarcasm is appreciated

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeyM1979;
Yeah, and Rinnegan is supposed to be > MS/EMS, yet we've not seen it. EMS hasn't shown anything that would mean it's > MS, other than restoring vision. And in this case, a versus fight, Itachi doesn't need his vision restored, since he's used all of his MS techniques just fine, only going blind when he was at his very end.
Agreed

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeyM1979;
Until proven/shown otherwise, he just uses some wood techniques, not too far from what Yamato has shown, has a darkness genjutsu that can be overcome by Itachi, and the ability to put down bijuu, which again, is useless against Itachi.

Frankly, Shodaime is a bad match against Itachi. Mainly because we know much more about what Itachi is fully capable of, and since Kishi hasn't bothered showing us just how uber Shodaime was, then I'll take that as a sign that he wasn't all that uber and Godly to begin with. Maybe in his time he was, but times have changed.
Agreed
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Old 05-21-2008, 01:19 PM   #2229
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Re: VS Thread [With Manga Spoilers!]

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Originally Posted by Matthekage View Post
Yeah, ok. It doesn't say that he is a big time user. That's just an assumption based on his level. Though it can be assumed that he had mastered water to be able to use it to create wood, can't it?
Not really. His was a special bloodline limit, like Haku's ice abilities. Haku has never shown suiton and fuuton, but has shown ice. I'm sure that makes no sense, but hey, take it up with Kishi.

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My point was more that he was in his youth and determined.
And blinded by his selfish ways. We've seen where thet gets people...

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Originally Posted by Matthekage View Post
Now, this is an assumption as well. Other than Madara being mistaken for dead there is no evidence that he through the fight or didn't fight at full power. It was for the leadership of the village and the respect of his clan.
I never said it was fact, however, it's a reasonable assumption. Shodaime has never, EVER shown anything that would really overcome something like EMS. Sure, Shodaime can put down Kyuubi, but then that would have created a huge opening for Madara to actually kill Shodaime. That fight is ridiculously fishy. I'm not saying Shodaime isn't powerful, I'm just saying there must be more things to factor in, once they're revealed. This week's chapter has an interesting title...

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LMAO. Obviously not, though you sarcasm is appreciated


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Agreed


Agreed
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Old 05-25-2008, 01:11 PM   #2230
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Re: VS Thread [With Manga Spoilers!]

Sjodaime would obliterate itachi in a heartbeat. He beat madara a man who was way stronger then itachi was current back in his prime hell he remained strogner then itachi even now itachi admitted to it. He had the ems which is a lot more powerful then mks his chakra is without a doubt better seeing in how he survived this long.

Itachi's katon are usless he has the water element mikey don't forget with the earth element.

Should he try and use amaterasu it would be easily countered by him splitting the ground with dotan we have seen many dotan user do this.

Not to mention the fact that he already fought madara meaning genjutsu was nothing for shodaime madara had ems and kyuubi amogest other things such as ktaon...... he still failed.

Itachi would be beat and fast every hokage would kill itachi period.



@miky you can't say shit about him showing anything to deal with ems for 1 reason we do not know of his abilite that much but madara"he was the strongest ninja in the ninja world and i looked up to him".


Shodaime was king in his days madara was a soldier. Fact is shodaime beat him madara didn't throw the fight because he wanted revenge and control there is no throwing fights i lover how the uchiha lvoers make up some bullshit about something liek this but guess what get ove rit uchiha clasn were second rate in the village .

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Old 05-27-2008, 11:41 AM   #2231
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Re: VS Thread [With Manga Spoilers!]

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Should he try and use amaterasu it would be easily countered by him splitting the ground with dotan we have seen many dotan user do this.
Yeah, but when was the last time we saw a doton user do that against something as powerful as Amat? Amat burns through any and everything. Wood especially, is useless against Amat.

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Originally Posted by Namikaze85 View Post
Not to mention the fact that he already fought madara meaning genjutsu was nothing for shodaime madara had ems and kyuubi amogest other things such as ktaon...... he still failed.
Why do you assume Madara even used genjutsu? Not all Uchiha use genjutsu offensively, you know.

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Itachi would be beat and fast every hokage would kill itachi period.
Now I know you're being bias towards the Hokages. I mean, I knew you were always on Minato's dick, but now Shodaime too? And to say Itachi would lose against someone as neglected as Nidaime, and to lose against someone who LOST to Orochimaru, like Sandaime, and someone like Tsunade, is a joke. You dun lost some credability.

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@miky you can't say shit about him showing anything to deal with ems
Yes I can. If you can sit there and make huge ridiculous assumptions like every Hokage being able to beat someone of Itachi's calibur, then I damn sure can say that.

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for 1 reason we do not know of his abilite that much but madara"he was the strongest ninja in the ninja world and i looked up to him".
And? This really doesn't prove shit, especially since Kishi enjoys contradicting himself with words, then showing otherwise with actions.

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Shodaime was king in his days madara was a soldier. Fact is shodaime beat him madara didn't throw the fight because he wanted revenge and control there is no throwing fights
Hey, a lot of shit happens in this story of Kishi's. Someone like Kakuzu, who by all rights, should have killed Naruto, didn't, because he was dumbed down and allowed Naruto to kill his remaining two hearts. It's not so farfetched that someone who had EMS was also dumbed down in order to make Shodaime look good.

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i lover how the uchiha lvoers make up some bullshit about something liek this but guess what get ove rit uchiha clasn were second rate in the village .
I really hope that's not directed at me, because if it is, you're terribly misinformed. I've given up on the Uchiha name.

Anyway, new fight!

PTS Kakashi vs PTS Itachi

Location: The area where Kakashi sparred against Sakura and Naruto for the second bell test.

Time: 9 p.m.

Stipulations: Kakashi cannot use his MS, and Itachi can't use his MS either.

I'll say Kakashi takes this, as Kakashi is basically a slightly watered down Itachi, with less MS techniques. Itachi's main style of combat revolves around genjutsu, and Kakashi has a pretty powerful 3 tomoe Sharingan, also capable of using MS.
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Old 05-27-2008, 12:08 PM   #2232
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Re: VS Thread [With Manga Spoilers!]

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Originally Posted by MikeyM1979;
Anyway, new fight!

PTS Kakashi vs PTS Itachi

Location: The area where Kakashi sparred against Sakura and Naruto for the second bell test.

Time: 9 p.m.

Stipulations: Kakashi cannot use his MS, and Itachi can't use his MS either.

I'll say Kakashi takes this, as Kakashi is basically a slightly watered down Itachi, with less MS techniques. Itachi's main style of combat revolves around genjutsu, and Kakashi has a pretty powerful 3 tomoe Sharingan, also capable of using MS.
Good battle Mikey'. I'll go Itachi. He was a child prod' that (possibly) kicked Oro's ass at 11, took on his clan at 13. Itachi used his MS and Genjutsu as his primary weapons but, it has also been hinted that he had pretty mad Taijutu. Add to this Itachi has the same copying ability as Kakashi, he has to know many Ninjutsu moves.
I'll go Pre-Aids Itachi, Kakashi doesn't have the stamina to defeat Itachi.

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Old 05-27-2008, 12:25 PM   #2233
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Re: VS Thread [With Manga Spoilers!]

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Good battle Mikey'. I'll go Itachi. He was a child prod' that (possibly) kicked Oro's ass at 11
Things like that aren't too relevant in a versus topic. This is a fight, not what kind of feats these characters have.

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took on his clan at 13. Itachi used his MS and Genjutsu as his primary weapons
Which are void in this fight.

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it has also been hinted that he had pretty mad Taijutu.
Where has this been hinted? I hope we're not going by his showing of kicking Kurenai, because that wasn't impressive. And his taijutsu exchange against Sasuke was actually genjutsu. If we're assuming this just because he's fast and has a three tomoe Sharingan, then we can easily use the same argument for Kakashi. And it would work more in Kakashi's favor, since his rival is Gai, a taijutsu specialist.

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Add to this Itachi has the same copying ability as Kakashi, he has to know many Ninjutsu moves.
That's pure speculation. Itachi hasn't shown many kinds of ninjutsu. We shouldn't assume he does have several kinds of ninjutsu just because he's a Sharingan user. I mean, Sasuke is one also, and he's stuck mainly to katons and raitons. As far as ninjutsu go, you'd think he'd show more versatility from his training with Orochimaru.

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Originally Posted by Matthekage View Post
I'll go Pre-Aids Itachi, Kakashi doesn't have the stamina to defeat Itachi.
Let's look at what Itachi brings to the table, shall we?

Speed, which can be easily countered by Kakashi, since he's improved also.

Ninjutsu, which Kakashi can just copy, or avoid altogether.

Genjutsu, which would be useless against Kakashi, since Itachi has no access to Tsukuyomi.

Taijutsu, which I believe they'd both be even at, or a slight advantage would go to Kakashi.

What else? Stamina? Kakashi's stamina has improved over the time skip.
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Old 05-27-2008, 12:53 PM   #2234
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Re: VS Thread [With Manga Spoilers!]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeyM1979;
Things like that aren't too relevant in a versus topic. This is a fight, not what kind of feats these characters have.
I only added these as indicators of strength because once you remove Itachis MS battle and abilities, kishi' hasn't shown much of Itachis strength. It's assumption with Itachi.

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Originally Posted by MikeyM1979;
Which are void in this fight.
I know, I was just acknowledging their existence. Not counting them in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeyM1979;
Where has this been hinted? I hope we're not going by his showing of kicking Kurenai, because that wasn't impressive. And his taijutsu exchange against Sasuke was actually genjutsu. If we're assuming this just because he's fast and has a three tomoe Sharingan, then we can easily use the same argument for Kakashi. And it would work more in Kakashi's favor, since his rival is Gai, a taijutsu specialist.
Okay, training with Guy. Good point, I didn't think of that. It would be a definite advantage. I guess I was classing the Genjutsu fight as a reflection of their actual abilities, Kishi' doesn't give us much else. I also must rate the potential of Sasuke higher than you, too. Undoubtedly, not in the league of Gai though. You have me there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeyM1979;
That's pure speculation. Itachi hasn't shown many kinds of ninjutsu. We shouldn't assume he does have several kinds of ninjutsu just because he's a Sharingan user. I mean, Sasuke is one also, and he's stuck mainly to katons and raitons. As far as ninjutsu go, you'd think he'd show more versatility from his training with Orochimaru.
Of course it's speculation, Mikey'. If we don't use a little speculation (Based on hints given) then we would never be able to have this sort of conversation. We know more directly about Kakashis abilities than we do Itachis. Kakashi has had more panels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeyM1979;
Let's look at what Itachi brings to the table, shall we?

Speed, which can be easily countered by Kakashi, since he's improved also.

Ninjutsu, which Kakashi can just copy, or avoid altogether.

Genjutsu, which would be useless against Kakashi, since Itachi has no access to Tsukuyomi.

Taijutsu, which I believe they'd both be even at, or a slight advantage would go to Kakashi.

What else? Stamina? Kakashi's stamina has improved over the time skip.
Alright, I see a problem-PTS- Pre or Post. I'm thinking Pre, You maybe Post?

Anyway, I have them; around even in speed - even in Ninjutsu (Both have Sharingan) - Itachi owns Genjutsu - Taijutsu to Kakashi (now, with Guy training).

That does make it hell close imo.

Although, for arguments sake I'm going to stay with Itachi. Is his Genjutsu advantage greater than Kakashis Taijutsu advantage?

Last edited by Matthekage; 05-27-2008 at 12:57 PM.
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Old 05-27-2008, 12:57 PM   #2235
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Re: VS Thread [With Manga Spoilers!]

Hm. I'll be refering to Pre-time skip as BTS (before time skip), and Post time skip as PTS (post time skip).

It would be close, that's for sure. Itachi has always relied heavily on MS, while Kakashi hasn't.
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