VS Thread [With Manga Spoilers!] - Page 655

AniMeFaN · 04-10-2011, 10:09 PM

thing is i said multiple times it looks like it is taken out of context and he said multiple times thats how it was written. i would like to see the actual page, where do i find it.

ninjalostboy95 · 04-10-2011, 10:56 PM

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Originally Posted by AniMeFaN

you are fucking stupid if you think that translation actually makes sense.

Yuo mad casue uoy cna't raed brah? Deos tihs maek sesne?

ask me anything · 04-10-2011, 11:01 PM

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Originally Posted by AniMeFaN

thing is i said multiple times it looks like it is taken out of context and he said multiple times thats how it was written. i would like to see the actual page, where do i find it.

Man it was hard as fuck to find this. Plus Photobucket wouldn't upload it for some reason, so I had to find another site to host this shit on.

So your welcome in advance.

Just accept the fact that your wrong and move on. It happens to the best of us champ.

Some more then others.

NeoKakarott023 · 04-10-2011, 11:26 PM

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Originally Posted by AniMeFaN

i really dont care what the author wrote. he could write kakashi is the strongest in the manga in the next data book, doesnt mean im going to believe or agree with it. his manga contradicts what he wrote in the databook.

Because in your world Uchiha Itachi was this flawless character, that was perfect in all ways, and it was impossible in your fantasy world for Itachi to be touched, and of course it wasn't because of his sharingan, its because his full of your fanning juice that you provide to keep this conversation going.

Fact Itachi was caught in the Broads genjutsu off the giddyup, therefore your 'field spell' of invincibility is gone. Or you could bring out that other card that your hiding, "Itachi could see in the future with his MS ability and planned for the events with Kurenai, and also Sasuke's battle'.

I won't get into a Itachi vs. Kurenai battle with you just cause you don't like her. Fact is she hasn't fought enough for a legitmate battle with Itachi, but to pull random genin against her is simply retarded. How did she ever get promoted to Jounin, and get to be put in charge of a team, the lottery? For all the bashing, she graduate from the academy at age 9, THATS BEFORE EVERY UBER GENIN IN THIS STORY, AND A LOT OF OTHER CHARACTERS, MEN INCLUDED. If you want to pit her vs. these people at chuunin or above, thats plausible, but not only for her many peoples techs from that chuunin exam hasen't been upgraded yet, not enough information for an accurate battle.

Its okay to think Itachi is 'The Best Day Ever', it cool, but he's not real ya know. Sometimes you communicate as if you're in contact with him, and his pissed that the wrong informations out there about him. Think about that.

Vengeance · 04-11-2011, 12:45 AM

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Originally Posted by AniMeFaN

you fail to grasp that not having to weave hand signs but just lift a finger or a simple look of his eyes can catch someone in a genjutsu. that shows more skill in casting genjutsu which is a big part of genjutsu.

Did you even read what you just quoted here? I mean really now what you're saying here has little to nothing to do with the analogy presented in what you actually quoted. Do you know who else totally ignores points & rambles on about nothing? KYF.

Anyway to answer what I quoted; Having a magic eye that has a natural ability for something does not equate skill. Note other analogies in regards to physical ability. The so called simple lift of a finger was used on Naruto who really has no inherent skill in the use of genjutsu. Hypothetically speaking that genjutsu would be less potent when compared to his sharingan genjutsu. It would also be something that Kuranei could easily cancel since she actually has years of experience with genjutsu.

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Originally Posted by AniMeFaN

once in the genjutsu what happend, he reversed right away

With his sharingan not actual skill.

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Originally Posted by AniMeFaN

and in the genjutsu he had the upper hand so she had to find a way to cancel the genjutsu,

& She did cancel it in like 1 second. Infact she canceled it fast enough to even dodge & block hits from Itachi. Meaning that genjutsu exchange ended in a stalemate dumbarse.

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Originally Posted by AniMeFaN

why didnt she just reverse it, why didnt that level have no effect on her. thats why she caused herself actual pain/dmg to get out.

She didn't reverse it because there would have been no point in doing so. Since you know Itachi has the magic eye which naturally allows him to see through such things.

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Originally Posted by AniMeFaN

it conflicts with what the manga has shown

Actually it corresponds with what was shown in the manga since their exchange in genjutsu ended in a stalemate.

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Originally Posted by AniMeFaN

that wasnt actually itachi, it was some guy that was made to look like him through a technique and was the equilvalent to 30% of itachi. he couldnt use all his techniques and the ones he did werent nearly the same because of it.

The clones were perfect physical copies that were controlled by the person whose form it was taking. 30% chakra is completely irrelevant since Kakashi never out chakra'ed Itachi in order to get the drop on him but simply outsmarted Itachi. Meaning Kakashi clearly caught Itachi off guard.

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Originally Posted by AniMeFaN

that is still up in the air as the manga isnt over yet

How is this up in the air exactly? Sasuke already sided with Madara, attacked the Kage summit & killed Danzou. Surely none of this was a part of Itachi's original plan right? Clearly Madara is the one who played Itachi.

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Originally Posted by AniMeFaN

we dont know itachis side, there were alot of factors in play so we dont know how things actually went down or what his intentions were.

Actually we do know Itachi's side in all of this. Please re-read the manga & note Sasuke's conversations with Madara & Danzou. We pretty much know everthing that needs to be known in regards to this subject. Itachi allowed himself to become a pwn in an effort to prevent war.

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Originally Posted by AniMeFaN

maybe sasuke is playing madara for all we know, still alot of manga left.

LMAO yeah ok I'm sure Sasuke may at some point try to revolt against Madara but that doesn't change the fact that he's attacked killed ninja from multiple countries, & killed Konoha's acting Kage. Meaning at this point in time he's Madara's puppet.

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Originally Posted by AniMeFaN

again you dont know what he was thinking.

Dude really now have you read the manga? Itachi wanted Sasuke to return to Konoha as a hero after killing Itachi. Obviously that's not the direction Sasuke took. Meaning Itachi's master plan blew up in his face.

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Originally Posted by AniMeFaN

its not just because of his sharingan, she couldnt even handle her own genjutsu and had to hurt herself to escape it. itachi took over her own genjutus and used it agains her like it was nothing.

Which he did with the fucking Sharingan dumbarse. So yes it very much is all about his sharingan.

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Originally Posted by AniMeFaN

if you are going to keep claiming kurenai "caught" itachi in a genjutsu dont say how is he magically going to catch her in a genjutsu because thats a joke.

But she did catch Itachi in a genjutsu. It's clearly drawn as such in the manga. I'm not making a claim I'm stating simple fact. My question is valid how exactly would Itachi get Kurenai in a genjutsu without the aid of sharingan?

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Originally Posted by AniMeFaN

you think she can catch him but not vice versa, common.

But she did catch him dumbarse.

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Originally Posted by AniMeFaN

also i like how you added never caught her in a genjutsu he "initially used"

Because it's the truth dumbarse.

AniMeFaN · 04-11-2011, 07:24 AM

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Originally Posted by Vengeance

Did you even read what you just quoted here? I mean really now what you're saying here has little to nothing to do with the analogy presented in what you actually quoted. Do you know who else totally ignores points & rambles on about nothing? KYF..

yea you are talking about speed not being equated to skill. this is not the case in genjutsu because speed of casting is equated to skill when you dont have to weave hand signs.

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Originally Posted by Vengeance

With his sharingan not actual skill...

common man, you act like he was a normal uchiha and its just because he has a sharingan that he can do these things. pretty much all uchiha wouldnt be able to handle themselves with kurenai in genjutsu bit itachi was extremely skilled and thats why his sharingan was so powerful.

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Originally Posted by Vengeance

& She did cancel it in like 1 second. Infact she canceled it fast enough to even dodge & block hits from Itachi. Meaning that genjutsu exchange ended in a stalemate dumbarse....

actually it didnt end in a stalemate, she had to escape the genjutsu because it was not a stale mate in the genjutsu, she was infact in serious trouble and even when she did cancel it the fight was over anyway if not for kakashi.

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Originally Posted by Vengeance

She didn't reverse it because there would have been no point in doing so. Since you know Itachi has the magic eye which naturally allows him to see through such things.

then why did she do it in the first place? if she know who he is, why did she do it, is she just that stupid?

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Originally Posted by Vengeance

Actually it corresponds with what was shown in the manga since their exchange in genjutsu ended in a stalemate..

again it didnt end in a stalemate, the genjutsu ended with itachi having the upperhand, thats why she tried to cancel it out because she saw she was at a disadvantage.

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Originally Posted by Vengeance

The clones were perfect physical copies that were controlled by the person whose form it was taking. 30% chakra is completely irrelevant since Kakashi never out chakra'ed Itachi in order to get the drop on him but simply outsmarted Itachi. Meaning Kakashi clearly caught Itachi off guard...

the clones were perfect physical copies equal to 30% of itachi, but being controlled from somewhere else. his attacks were not the same level and he couldnt use alot of his techniques. you act like that was a fight with the real itachi, and that naruto would have been able to land a rasengan on him to fniish him, of course he wouldnt be able to, a 100% itachi is a completely different enemy and is far ahead in a fight step wise then most. you think kakashi improved that significantly from part 1 where he was on his toes the entire time and overwhelmed thinking about the situation.

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Originally Posted by Vengeance

How is this up in the air exactly? Sasuke already sided with Madara, attacked the Kage summit & killed Danzou. Surely none of this was a part of Itachi's original plan right? Clearly Madara is the one who played Itachi....

we dont know that, we dont know what itachi had intended because we dont know his side. he was clearly aware that sasuke would come to and attack konoha because he spoke to naruto about it before he was even dead.

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Originally Posted by Vengeance

Actually we do know Itachi's side in all of this. Please re-read the manga & note Sasuke's conversations with Madara & Danzou. We pretty much know everthing that needs to be known in regards to this subject. Itachi allowed himself to become a pwn in an effort to prevent war.....

we dont know that, thats what we have been told by others, we dont know his actualy intentions coming from him, there were alot of factors in play so we dont know what he was thinking as of now.

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Originally Posted by Vengeance

LMAO yeah ok I'm sure Sasuke may at some point try to revolt against Madara but that doesn't change the fact that he's attacked killed ninja from multiple countries, & killed Konoha's acting Kage. Meaning at this point in time he's Madara's puppet..

he killed danzo who is a shinobi from the old days that lives with in an handles his businees with in the shadows, nobody trusted him or iwll miss him. that doesnt mean he madaras puppet, we dont know what he is doing right now, he may be playing madara and this was to gain his trust for all we know. he said his objectives lie within the shadows, those objectives are to rid the world of these shinobi such as orochimaru,danzo,madara etc so how is he a puppet.

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Originally Posted by Vengeance

Dude really now have you read the manga? Itachi wanted Sasuke to return to Konoha as a hero after killing Itachi. Obviously that's not the direction Sasuke took. Meaning Itachi's master plan blew up in his face......

you are going on what madara told you, you have no idea what itachi intended because he never told anyone that we know of.

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Originally Posted by Vengeance

Which he did with the fucking Sharingan dumbarse. So yes it very much is all about his sharingan..

i dont understand where you have read sharingan give you the ability to reverse genjutsu but i havent seen it, pretty much all sharingan user would lose to her in genjutsu but itachis skills were what allowed him to reverse it.

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Originally Posted by Vengeance

But she did catch Itachi in a genjutsu. It's clearly drawn as such in the manga. I'm not making a claim I'm stating simple fact. My question is valid how exactly would Itachi get Kurenai in a genjutsu without the aid of sharingan?..

im saying thats retarded, you thinking that she can catch itachi in a genjutsu but not viceversa, he didnt even have to cast a genjutsu to catch her lol, he caught her in her own.

AniMeFaN · 04-11-2011, 07:25 AM

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Originally Posted by ask me anything

Man it was hard as fuck to find this. Plus Photobucket wouldn't upload it for some reason, so I had to find another site to host this shit on.

So your welcome in advance.

Just accept the fact that your wrong and move on. It happens to the best of us champ.

thx for finding the page but i meant the page translated, that looks like alot of writing in another language

Numinous · 04-11-2011, 09:14 AM

Animefan, we don't need a KYF 3.0 (since HR was the 2.0). I'll just point out the fallacies.

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yea you are talking about speed not being equated to skill. this is not the case in genjutsu because speed of casting is equated to skill when you dont have to weave hand signs.

Fallacy of composition (taking a property of a part to describe the whole):

Someone skilled in Genjutsu cats them quick
Itachi is quicker than Kurenai when casting Genjutsu
Therefore, Itachi is more skilled in Genjutsu.

This fails because speed is PART of the skill, not the whole.

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common man, you act like he was a normal uchiha and its just because he has a sharingan that he can do these things. pretty much all uchiha wouldnt be able to handle themselves with kurenai in genjutsu bit itachi was extremely skilled and thats why his sharingan was so powerful.

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i dont understand where you have read sharingan give you the ability to reverse genjutsu but i havent seen it, pretty much all sharingan user would lose to her in genjutsu but itachis skills were what allowed him to reverse it.

Circular cause and consequence (the consequence is also the cause)

The Sharingan allows the user to cast excellent Genjutsu
Itachi's sharingan was so powerful can cast excellent Genjutsu

This fails because it's canon that the Sharingan is what allows the Uchiha to be masters of Genjutsu, and you're saying that was Itachi's skill in Genjutsu what made his sharingan so good.

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actually it didnt end in a stalemate, she had to escape the genjutsu because it was not a stale mate in the genjutsu, she was infact in serious trouble and even when she did cancel it the fight was over anyway if not for kakashi.

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again it didnt end in a stalemate, the genjutsu ended with itachi having the upperhand, thats why she tried to cancel it out because she saw she was at a disadvantage.

Nirvana's Fallacy (assuming the argument is invalid because the outcome isn't perfect)

The fight didn't end in a stalemate because Kurenai had to cancel the Genjutsu by biting her lip instead of reversing Itachi's genjutsu like he did

This fails because if she were to reverse the Genjutsu, that could start a loop of Itachi reversing Kurenai's genjutsu that was already reversing Itachi's reverse and so on. I don't know if you know, but Genjutsu consumes chakra and there were 2 more elements in the situation (Asuma and Kisame). Being on a Genjutsu loop would be futile, so her biting her lip was a valid way to counter Itachi, since he or Kisame could attack her at any given time.

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then why did she do it in the first place? if she know who he is, why did she do it, is she just that stupid?

Historian's Fallacy (assuming the people making decisions had the same perspective and knowledge as the people analyzing the situation after it)

Kurenai knew who Itachi was and casted a Genjutsu on him
Itachi reversed her own Genjutsu
Therefore Kurenai is stupid for casting a Genjutsu

This fails because, although Kurenai knew who he was, she couldn't possibly know his exact skill on Genjutsu. She just happened to have the shorter end of the stick because he matched her skill.

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the clones were perfect physical copies equal to 30% of itachi, but being controlled from somewhere else. his attacks were not the same level and he couldnt use alot of his techniques. you act like that was a fight with the real itachi, and that naruto would have been able to land a rasengan on him to fniish him, of course he wouldnt be able to, a 100% itachi is a completely different enemy and is far ahead in a fight step wise then most.

Fallacy of necessity (placing unwarranted necessity in the conclusion)

Itachi's clone only had 30% of the original's chakra
Itachi can't perform as many jutsu at 30% as he can at 100%
Therefore, Itachi's clone can't possibly have the same jutsu Itachi does

This fails because the discrepancy of the quantity of chakra affects how many times a (sequence of) jutsu can be performed, not the quantity of jutsu that Itachi's clone can perform from his repertoire. For all we know, Itachi's clone could perform Susano'o, he probably didn't because he amount of chakra wouldn't let him have said jutsu active while casting others or the quality of Susano'o would be lower due to lower amounts of chakra, therefore not as effective as it would be.

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you think kakashi improved that significantly from part 1 where he was on his toes the entire time and overwhelmed thinking about the situation.

Yet another case of Historian's fallacy.

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we dont know that, we dont know what itachi had intended because we dont know his side. there were alot of factors in play so we dont know what he was thinking as of now.

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you are going on what madara told you, you have no idea what itachi intended because he never told anyone that we know of.

Argument from ignorance (if not proven false, it must be true)

We don't know Itachi's version because he never told us directly without any corruption of the facts
Therefore anything I say about his intentions is valid.

This fails because what the story behind Itachi's actions was told by two separate persons (Madara and Danzou) and neither of them contradicted the other and all the possible questions were answered, so it's logical to say that Itachi's intentions are well known (and ultimately failed)

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he killed danzo who is a shinobi from the old days that lives with in an handles his businees with in the shadows, nobody trusted him or iwll miss him. that doesnt mean he madaras puppet, we dont know what he is doing right now, he may be playing madara and this was to gain his trust for all we know.

Wrong direction (mixing cause with effect, trying to validate a point)

Sasuke killed Madara because he might be using Madara instead of the contrary

This fails because Madara set up the whole situation. If Madara didn't tell about Danzou's involvement in the Uchiha Massacre, if Madara didn't tell him that Danzou was in the Kage Summit and if Madara didn't put Sasuke right in front of Danzou to fight him, Sasuke would have 0 to work with Madara. Actually, if you remember, he bailed out of Akatsuki after "defeating" Killer Bee to set his own path, but Madara got on the way and he refused to get his brother's eyes when Madara proposed, which shouldn't happen if Sasuke was playing with Madara.

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thx for finding the page but i meant the page translated, that looks like alot of writing in another language

Raising the bar (when confronted with valid evidence that contradicts one's point, s/he asks for better evidence)

The quote from the databook is not good enough because I don't know the context
The context is not good enough because I can't read it

For Cthulhu's sake, you have the page AND the translation. What the hell do you want more, Kishi himself telling you that?

stubborn_d0nkey · 04-11-2011, 10:14 AM

Like I've said before, I dont see the uchiha (ie. the sharingan) having an inherent resistance to non-visual based genjutsu (or at least not nearly to the same extent).

AniMeFaN · 04-11-2011, 10:28 AM

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Originally Posted by Numinous

Fallacy of composition (taking a property of a part to describe the whole):

Someone skilled in Genjutsu cats them quick
Itachi is quicker than Kurenai when casting Genjutsu
Therefore, Itachi is more skilled in Genjutsu.

This fails because speed is PART of the skill, not the whole.

see the thing is you like to act really smart and point out fallacies but the fact is you lack understanding of what was actually wrtiten so many times when trying to do so. i never claimed he was greater in genjutsu because of his speed in casting, i only said it is a skill when looking at genjutsu because casting is a big part. not having to weave hand signs and just using a finger shows a greater skill in casting genjutsu which is part of the whole.

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Originally Posted by Numinous

Circular cause and consequence (the consequence is also the cause)

The Sharingan allows the user to cast excellent Genjutsu
Itachi's sharingan was so powerful can cast excellent Genjutsu

This fails because it's canon that the Sharingan is what allows the Uchiha to be masters of Genjutsu, and you're saying that was Itachi's skill in Genjutsu what made his sharingan so good.

it was his skill as a shinobi that made his sharingan so powerful, a normal sharingan user would not have beat kurenai in a battle of genjutsu because a lack of skill.

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Originally Posted by Numinous

Nirvana's Fallacy (assuming the argument is invalid because the outcome isn't perfect)

The fight didn't end in a stalemate because Kurenai had to cancel the Genjutsu by biting her lip instead of reversing Itachi's genjutsu like he did

This fails because if she were to reverse the Genjutsu, that could start a loop of Itachi reversing Kurenai's genjutsu that was already reversing Itachi's reverse and so on. I don't know if you know, but Genjutsu consumes chakra and there were 2 more elements in the situation (Asuma and Kisame). Being on a Genjutsu loop would be futile, so her biting her lip was a valid way to counter Itachi, since he or Kisame could attack her at any given time.

the fight didnt end in a stalemate because the genjutsu battle ended with her trying to escape itachis advantage. she was at a disadvantage in the genjutsu and was forced to escape or be seriously injured. even after the genjutsu was escaped it was still itachis advantage. you are the one who is claiming she could reverse if she chose too but it wasnt the best move to factoring in the situation and chakra, that seems like all speculation to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numinous

Historian's Fallacy (assuming the people making decisions had the same perspective and knowledge as the people analyzing the situation after it)

Kurenai knew who Itachi was and casted a Genjutsu on him
Itachi reversed her own Genjutsu
Therefore Kurenai is stupid for casting a Genjutsu

This fails because, although Kurenai knew who he was, she couldn't possibly know his exact skill on Genjutsu. She just happened to have the shorter end of the stick because he matched her skill.

funny because itachi knew who she was and exactly what she was capable of.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numinous

Fallacy of necessity (placing unwarranted necessity in the conclusion)

Itachi's clone only had 30% of the original's chakra
Itachi can't perform as many jutsu at 30% as he can at 100%
Therefore, Itachi's clone can't possibly have the same jutsu Itachi does

This fails because the discrepancy of the quantity of chakra affects how many times a (sequence of) jutsu can be performed, not the quantity of jutsu that Itachi's clone can perform from his repertoire. For all we know, Itachi's clone could perform Susano'o, he probably didn't because he amount of chakra wouldn't let him have said jutsu active while casting others or the quality of Susano'o would be lower due to lower amounts of chakra, therefore not as effective as it would be. .

actually it does effect the quantity of jutsus that can be performed from his repetoire. he stated he could not use the mangekeyo, kakashi even commmented on the level of attacks being performed. i like how you say for all we know and you think its alright but when i do it im committing a fallacy some how as you said later in the post.

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Originally Posted by Numinous

Yet another case of Historian's fallacy

Argument from ignorance (if not proven false, it must be true)

We don't know Itachi's version because he never told us directly without any corruption of the facts
Therefore anything I say about his intentions is valid.

This fails because what the story behind Itachi's actions was told by two separate persons (Madara and Danzou) and neither of them contradicted the other and all the possible questions were answered, so it's logical to say that Itachi's intentions are well known (and ultimately failed).

all that was said by danzo was that he ordered the massacre, that doesnt mean we know anything about itachis side of the story, we dont know his intentions or anything so to claim he intended this or intended that is not factual.

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Originally Posted by Numinous

Wrong direction (mixing cause with effect, trying to validate a point)

Sasuke killed Madara because he might be using Madara instead of the contrary

This fails because Madara set up the whole situation. If Madara didn't tell about Danzou's involvement in the Uchiha Massacre, if Madara didn't tell him that Danzou was in the Kage Summit and if Madara didn't put Sasuke right in front of Danzou to fight him, Sasuke would have 0 to work with Madara. Actually, if you remember, he bailed out of Akatsuki after "defeating" Killer Bee to set his own path, but Madara got on the way and he refused to get his brother's eyes when Madara proposed, which shouldn't happen if Sasuke was playing with Madara..

he bailed out after capturing killer bee to do exactly what madara helped him do, go after the konoha elders. im not saying madara isnt tyring to manipulate sasuke thats obvious, im just saying it could be the other way around as well since we know his goal is to kill tobi and all.

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Originally Posted by Numinous

Raising the bar (when confronted with valid evidence that contradicts one's point, s/he asks for better evidence)

The quote from the databook is not good enough because I don't know the context
The context is not good enough because I can't read it

For Cthulhu's sake, you have the page AND the translation. What the hell do you want more, Kishi himself telling you that?

1. that translation is horrible, 2. i cant read japanese so that page is uselse too me. 3. im not expert but it looks like more was written on that page.

NeoKakarott023 · 04-11-2011, 11:47 AM

Chris Jerihico coined the phrase, and now I've actually seen one....

ASSCLOWN

This is beyond having a conversation with a wall. It'd be nice if the guy kept a consistent opinion about Itachi as well, it changes with the arguement. Sometimes he's more uber than the Broad because of his 'experience as a shinobi' (while he has feats, I've never heard other shinobi so in fear like he was a Battle God walking around slaying people, the Cat didn't even like to fight so beside the Uchiha Invasion that he overhaxxed the clan with Madara's help, where'd he get all of this 'experience'? Fighting a couple of jinks with help, and Deidara with moar help?), at other times his sharingan has bearing because its an undenyable hax, and you can't talk your way around it, no matter how you tried.

A genjutsu is an attack and unless the opponent has some instant dispel already activated, ANYONE can be caught in a genjutsu, such was the case with Itachi, it has less to do with either persons overall skill.

Numinous · 04-11-2011, 12:04 PM

For the love of crap...

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see the thing is you like to act really smart and point out fallacies but the fact is you lack understanding of what was actually written so many times when trying to do so. i never claimed he was greater in genjutsu because of his speed in casting, i only said it is a skill when looking at genjutsu because casting is a big part. not having to weave hand signs and just using a finger shows a greater skill in casting genjutsu which is part of the whole.

Hello, hypocrisy. You say you didn't say that casting speed was the reason you said he had greater skill, but you immediately state that the techniques he uses save time, therefore he had greater skill.

A canon example: both Itachi and Sasuke can cast Tsukuyomi, therefore they should be cast at the same speed. Funny thing is, Sasuke's Tsukuyomi is ridiculously lackluster while Itachi's Tsukuyomi is regarded as the best and there's where your fallacy of composition falls apart.

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it was his skill as a shinobi that made his sharingan so powerful, a normal sharingan user would not have beat kurenai in a battle of genjutsu because a lack of skill.

Nobody is saying that Itachi isn't skilled with his Genjutsu (just check the example I gave previously), but without Sharingan he wouldn't have such ability, and you, in previous posts, wanted to imply that Itachi's skill in Genjutsu is independent of his Sharingan, which is complete bullshit.

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the fight didnt end in a stalemate because the genjutsu battle ended with her trying to escape itachis advantage. she was at a disadvantage in the genjutsu and was forced to escape or be seriously injured. even after the genjutsu was escaped it was still itachis advantage. you are the one who is claiming she could reverse if she chose too but it wasnt the best move to factoring in the situation and chakra, that seems like all speculation to me.

You're still on Nirvana's fallacy. Just think practically for a second and you'll see why Kurenai's best move was that.

Or if you don't come to that conclusion, I'll provide a theoretical situation akin to an RPG:

Say that you have 4 fighters with 1024 health points each:

Magic User A
Brawler A
Magic User B
Brawler B

Say that Magic User A has a spell to blast 50% of the target's current health that costs Y chakra and Magic User B has the ability to return spells he suffered back to the caster that costs Z chakra. Brawler B can do 64 points worth of damage.

Magic User A uses the spell, so Magic User B is down to 512 health points, but he returns the spell, so Magic User A is also down to 512 health points. Do you think the Magic User A should:

Use the spell again and again, for both magic users to have 256-->128-->64 (this if their chakra lasts that long), only to make an opening for Brawler B to attack Magic User A and take him down immediately or...
Accept that using the spell is futile if Magic User B will just return it and be ready in case either Magic User B or Brawler B attack him?

If you played any RPG, 2 is the obvious answer.

Quote:

actually it does effect the quantity of jutsus that can be performed from his repetoire. he stated he could not use the mangekeyo, kakashi even commmented on the level of attacks being performed

*sigh* Do you even read what I wrote? If he could use Sharingan, he could use Mangekyo Sharingan, simple as that. The problem with the clone is that it lacks a severe amount of chakra, therefore limiting how many jutsu can be performed or how powerful they are considering the amount of chakra. Because what good is casting Amaterasu if it lasts a moment and only burns a bush? That's where you plead to necessity of real Itachi for the whole repertoire, while logically that isn't exclusively necessary.

Quote:

i like how you say for all we know and you think its alright but when i do it im committing a fallacy some how as you said later in the post.

Except when I pointed out the fallacy, it wasn't for the expression used (that would be incredibly stupid), it was for the idea expressed.

Quote:

all that was said by danzo was that he ordered the massacre, that doesnt mean we know anything about itachis side of the story, we dont know his intentions or anything so to claim he intended this or intended that is not factual.

Stop using arguments from ignorance where there's plenty of canonical evidence saying otherwise.

Quote:

he bailed out after capturing killer bee to do exactly what madara helped him do, go after the konoha elders.

Except, if Madara didn't appeared in front of Team Taka, Sasuke would still be pressing forward toward Konoha and who knows what would have happened. The fact is, without Madara, Sasuke wouldn't possess that information.

Quote:

im just saying it could be the other way around as well since we know his goal is to kill tobi and all.

Pardon me, but wut? I probably missed that part, but when exactly did Sasuke say "My goal is to kill Uchiha Madara" or something like that?

Quote:

1. that translation is horrible

And yet, a non-native English speaker like me understood it. Go figure that one out.

Quote:

2. i cant read japanese so that page is useless too me.

Kael provided the translation, so you can match it with the page (context).

Quote:

3. I'm not an expert but it looks like more was written on that page.

Well, there's the graph and pictures, but outside of that I think you're just pouting. Because, let's see:

14 words, 53 characters on your (corrected) quote.

Here's the translation in Portuguese:

Eu não sou um especialista mas parece-me que mais foi escrito nessa página.

13 words, 63 characters in this translation.

Now French:

Je ne suis pas un specialist mais il semble plus a été écrit sur cette page.

16 words, 61 characters in this translation.

Now, let's see Spanish:

Yo no soy un experto pero parece que más estaba escrito en esa página.

14 words, 57 characters in this translation.

If you still didn't see the point of this exercise, I pity you.

Wolverine · 04-11-2011, 12:35 PM

^Did KYF just learn hacking?

Numinous · 04-11-2011, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolverine

^Did KYF just learn hacking?

KYF took days to return to the forums when the domain was changed. I pretty much doubt he knows how to hack.

Wolverine · 04-11-2011, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numinous

KYF took days to return to the forums when the domain was changed. I pretty much doubt he knows how to hack.

Then my fears of stupidity being contagious were true. Oh Lord!

04-10-2011, 10:09 PM	#9811
AniMeFaN Chuunin Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 720 Thanks: 105 Thanked 195 Times in 128 Posts	Re: VS Thread [With Manga Spoilers!] thing is i said multiple times it looks like it is taken out of context and he said multiple times thats how it was written. i would like to see the actual page, where do i find it.

04-11-2011, 11:47 AM	#9821
NeoKakarott023 Sennin Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Parts Unknown, East Blue Posts: 4,828 Thanks: 3,389 Thanked 1,626 Times in 978 Posts	Re: VS Thread [With Manga Spoilers!] Chris Jerihico coined the phrase, and now I've actually seen one.... ASSCLOWN This is beyond having a conversation with a wall. It'd be nice if the guy kept a consistent opinion about Itachi as well, it changes with the arguement. Sometimes he's more uber than the Broad because of his 'experience as a shinobi' (while he has feats, I've never heard other shinobi so in fear like he was a Battle God walking around slaying people, the Cat didn't even like to fight so beside the Uchiha Invasion that he overhaxxed the clan with Madara's help, where'd he get all of this 'experience'? Fighting a couple of jinks with help, and Deidara with moar help?), at other times his sharingan has bearing because its an undenyable hax, and you can't talk your way around it, no matter how you tried. A genjutsu is an attack and unless the opponent has some instant dispel already activated, ANYONE can be caught in a genjutsu, such was the case with Itachi, it has less to do with either persons overall skill.

04-11-2011, 12:35 PM	#9823
Wolverine Special Jounin Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Guess.... Age: 24 Posts: 2,172 Thanks: 2,663 Thanked 1,126 Times in 672 Posts	Re: VS Thread [With Manga Spoilers!] ^Did KYF just learn hacking? __________________

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