MikeyM1979

Hmm. That's a pretty bold thing to assume, redkyuubi.

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redkyuubi

o ya? i guess i cant help it, its the way i am- but i stand behind what i said about shika- u could tell me why im wrong if u want?

MikeyM1979

I didn't say you were wrong. Just, I can never picture Shikamaru being able to defeat guys like Orochimaru and Jiraiya.

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redkyuubi

hmmm... well picture this, could u see him defeating them in a game of chess or pai sho? its the same thing basically-war is just a game in the end. ... well, i've thoroughly enjoyed this discussion but i gotta bounce- but dont worry ill be back for debating soon enough- try not to miss me too much mike...

I'MNOTCRAZY

I would like to draw your attention to his chakra reserves: they are rather low. He would not be able to last in a prolonged battle against any one of the elite ninja aforementioned. If he is not able to take them out quickly, then he would be outmatched by sheer power. He may have the intellect to beat them, but not the body. And he excels in calculating the enemies moves: we have seen them change their tactics on numerous occasions with unexpected twists, such as Orochimaru's snake form and Jiraiya's toad sage form.


Jiraiya wasn't on the list when I brought it up though. But as you guys are saying that it took him a VERY long time to attain all of his skill, I believe that to be wrong for one reason: He was named a Sannin at the same time as the other two. They weren't all that old. I think he just had to get passed the immaturity that comes with his character and to become more serious.

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redkyuubi

Every good strategist knows that ending a battle quickly always increases the chances for victory, Shika wouldnt need to last in a prolonged battle because at his full potential such a battle would never take place, he would choose the plan of action that is quickest. As for the fact that he would be outmatched by sheer power- i've said it before and i'll say it again, its planning and strategy that wins battles, not power. Even the most powerful opponent can fall in a battle if they fail to anticipate their enemies moves. Changing tactics only helps when your opponent is counting on you only doing one tactic, but a skilled strategist like shika would have taken into every possible- i repeat EVERY POSSIBLE tactic the enemy is capable of using and prepared for that... therefore making the action of changing tactics obsolete. Its his ability for foresight that would make him one of the superior shinobi, obviously not his physical prowess or chakra reserves... I mean i'm no Shika fan girl or anything, its just that i am able to see the potential in his genius thats all.

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Uchiha Killer

Weather shikamru is strong or not we can all agree that he is smart and very smart at that but to go and imply that he can beat people like jiraiya and orochimaru is like saying an infant can defeat goku that's the comaprsion in power between them.

As for the whole generation thing it's pretty obvious the only people it applies to is sasuke and naruto since nobody else is surpassing any hokage or sannin other than sakura to tsunade but that's a whole different field there.

redkyuubi

first of all, ur thinking of the current shika, who is smart and yet still lazy- I keep saying it again and again people, im talking about a shika at his FULL potential- for instance, imagine if instead of being lazy, shikamaru had lived his whole life with the same determination and perserverance as naruto? If he had used every bit of his intelligence and foresight to its upmost? ... tss... ur comparing him to an infant but in my implication its the scenario of a grown ass man!... and as for the comparison in POWER- How many times do i have to repeat myself? it doesnt matter if his opponent had all the power in the world- thats not what wins battles, strategy is.

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I'MNOTCRAZY

dude, that is BEYOND his full potential. he will NEVER, I repeat, NEVER shake off his laziness. His father never did. Neither will he.

Strategy only wins battles when your opponent is no where near as smart as you. Him versus Jiraiya: he MAY be able to catch him, but with Jiraiya's POWER, he would be able to overcome the jutsu. That and Shikamaru wouldn't be able to predict ALL possible strategies. I mean how would he be able to predict something like Jiraiya's Toad Sage form? That is too unpredictable to be able to predict.

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Uchiha Killer

You are basically implying that he could beat all the hokages, jiraiya ,orochimaru, and the entire akatuski basically all the bad ass that is what you just implied. And no he will never be able to beat any of the big boys and will never be on there level he become as smart as some of them but in a real fight he would get beat and beat fast against people like itachi,yondaime,jiraiya,orochiamru,shoda ime,nidaime,sandaime,kisame,pein,madara, I can keep going but you get the point.

Strategy or no strategy those people would beat his ass easily and there is no point in arguing on that because it would be foolish actually.

redkyuubi

INC...lol- ur always making me laugh somehow... anyways, if we were speaking about the current shika- id agree with you, but as for it being beyond his full potential- i totally disagree- a shika, with his intelligence and foresight at maximum along with endless determination and perserverance his whole life through could do all those things ive mentioned and more... And youre just flat out wrong about strategy only winning battles when the opponent is not as smart as you- Strategy only wins battles. period. end of sentence- it doesnt matter if ur opponent is as smart as u or not, in the end if his strategy is better than urs, u will fall and vice versa. I admit intelligence plays a factor in determining strategies, but its not the only thing that does. Strategy encompasses using all the resources available to you. Remember, Power IS a strategy.

@UK- ummm... how am i implying that he could defeat all the hokages? ive never said that nor implied it... and ive already stated that yondaime and those other characters that we dont know that much about are not included in my opinion. And basically, ur totally missing the point- this debate wasnt started because i said shikamaru could be the greatest shinobi ever- i said that if he wanted and if the circumstances were different, he could definitely be one of the greatest or one of the superior shinobi... which most of you have already confirmed in your statements anyways, only reiterating my point...

[/QUOTE]INC_Him versus Jiraiya: he MAY be able to catch him,[/QUOTE]

[/QUOTE]UK_he become as smart as some of them[/QUOTE]

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Uchiha Killer

Uh no lol even if shkia was like naruto he would never be able to touch people like jiraiya yondaime itachi pein and so on. He can predict shit he only won hidan becasue he planned ahead of time if they just fought right then and there no time to plan anything he would be dead why becasue he wouldn't know about hidan's immortality just like that jiraiya has toda form yondaime ftg,itachi mks,pein rinnegan,as do others so sorry but you attempt in making him look good is way off in fact i just proved it to you.

redkyuubi

Uh, just by saying you proved it, doesnt make it true. Neways, check the edit and maybe ull see some flaws in ur little outburst there...there's really no need for me to keep proving my point, you seem to be doing a good job of that for me. My stance on this was that if shikamaru had planned based on information about his opponent he could come up with strategies to defeat them- which you seem to agree with or maybe you just like writing the opposite of what you really believe.."he only won hidan becasue he planned ahead of time if they just fought right then and there no time to plan anything he would be dead why becasue he wouldn't know about hidan's immortality"- You've jumped into a debate not knowing where my stance was in it, and therefore compromised the validity of your statements. And for reference, i've already stated that im not trying to make shika look good- dont try to make this into an argument, leave it at what it is- a debate.

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I'MNOTCRAZY

If that was true, then wouldn't he have been able to beat Temari? RELATIVELY it is pretty accurate. He was up against someone smart, albeit a bit less smart than him, and he was outmatched in power. He may have given her a run for her money, but in the end, he failed to her superior POWER.

And SERIOUSLY, if he could be one of the greatest shinobi, then why is his dad not considered great? I don't really believe that he will FAR surpass is father. Maybe by a bit, creating a few new jutsus, but not by a long step.

Saying I'm "flat out wrong" doesn't really help your point. Supply some evidence. My point was that if you have an opponent who makes a strategy just as good or nearly as good as yours, and if he is stronger, his plan executably is better, and it will overpower you. And that is BULLSHIT saying that power is a strategy. It is only using brute force USING that power that is a strategy. There are other ways to use power. (That is just the meaning of strategy, so no evidence needed.)

and stop taking my words out of context.

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redkyuubi

I concur that if an opponent makes a strategy equal to yours, or if it is executably better than yours then you may fall, however i doubt that strength is a determining factor in the outcome. If the opponent is strong but doesnt use their strength in the right strategy, then they will fall- How did david beat Goliath? Goliath was obviously the stronger of the two but david's strategy of using the slingshot was greater than goliath's strength.

As for shika and temari, i dont think shikamaru failed to temari's superior power, in the end he just gave up because it was too troublesome, he only went about the match half assed anyways because he was annoyed that he had to fight a girl...and once again i concur with you about the current shika, but my point lies with a shika who isnt lazy, using his genius to its full potential... think of it this way: for example
Yondaime = genius + determination
Naruto = stupidity + determination
Current shika = genius + laziness
but just think if you added shikamaru's genius + Naruto's determination, you would get a potentially superior shinobi.. THATS what i mean- im looking at what shikamaru could have been had he not led his life through laziness and half assed attempts, of course, as i have stated before-im not implying that he could be greater than yondaime or anything or even equal to him, im just saying he could be great.
And who cares about his dad, His dad is not him- just by saying because his father isnt considered great that he couldnt be either, is unfounded- i mean look at naruto, just because his father was intelligent, does that mean that naruto is intelligent as well? no, as we all know naruto isnt too much on the bright side. Just because your father is or isnt something doesnt mean that you will or will not become that same thing. I, too, dont believe that shika could FAR surpass his father at the rate he is going NOW, he's lazy and unmotivated but if he were to drastically change his determination to match that of lets say naruto, then i dont doubt it.

it doesnt really matter how u use it, the use of power is a strategy, that was my implied meaning by stating that power is a strategy. Whether you use it to catch your opponent off guard, weaken them or obliterate them, each is a strategy in itself because you are making use of your power to counter or balance a strategy of the opponent, for example a defensive stance the opponent takes you attack with a more powerful blow and break through the defense, the use of the right amount of power to counter the defense is wherein lies the strategical value, in another scenario the opponent takes a defensive stance, and u attack using less power than their defense and are repelled-they are both strategies, just in one the strategy was flawed and in the other it wasnt, -the power itself is only a resource but the use of it is what makes it a strategy- the greater the power, the greater the strategy of power itself, if your strategy is greater than the opponent's strategy then your opponent will fall-and power doesnt always just mean brute force, it could be energy or stamina or a number of other things.

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