Assaulter

Wow..... you misread my post by a mile. I said any family would DEAL with it. I didn't say they would say its ok and say your a good person, I actually didn't even come close to saying that. Several times do people that are trying to blindly prove themselves right look at what a person says and read what they want into it without truly reading it.

Also misread. Good job. I said how can you support homosexuality and then go and hate incest being how they really aren't as different as people see them. Homosexuals are actually worst off than incest couples. The reason being because the bible for bays them from being together. The only reason that this makes them off is how ignorant and how far Christians will go for their faith. Once again nothing is being forced on you. I never said you should believe "this" because of "that". I just don't see the logic in hating something similar to another thing.

...read what I said. Pleeeeeease. When it comes to most incest situations do you think that they know what a true relationship with another person is like? No they don't. Yes they can find someone after and oh so many of them do, but just because they had a moment when they didn't fit your little they can't be related and like each other criteria they are condemned and hated by the mass public which in their eyes, they don't see themselves doing anything wrong.

Also go back to the example I gave at the end of that post. You can not tell an incest couple apart from a normal couple.

A great idea would be to read what Miburo and Ninja48 have said. They've crushed the little incest is wrong with basic fact. Also this is debating. Not arguing. Morales do not apply to debating.

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Maisauce

There's something else you should keep in mind. Inbred children are born with severe mutations. The similar makeup of two family members forms strange and serious deformities, like freak overbites and improper bone structure. Nature did not intend for a sister and brother to conceive a child. YOU'RE CREEPY AND WEIRD FOR THINKING OTHERWISE.

Maisauce

ANOTHER THING. LEARN THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN YOU'RE AND YOUR.

Lumineon

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this entire topic centered around subjectivity? I mean, isn't everything that's been said here, when you remove the fancy words and strip the argument down to its key elements, nothing more than opinions stated as facts? Anyway. Moving on.

Uh, a bit uncomfortable is an understatement. Then again, I doubt that two incestuous relatives would even be invited to these "social gatherings," but that's a whole separate issue.

Incorrect. I wouldn't be upset about seeing (or hearing about) it because it's taboo. It's funny how you mention that the only reason taboos existed in the first place are now obsolete. The only reason that someone thought up the brilliant idea "let me bang my sister" is also obsolete and a concept that vanished a long time ago.


So are you saying that you think in 15 years people will be more accepting of incest? People have become accepting of homosexuality because they've realized that there's nothing wrong with it. Who cares if you fall in love with a person of the opposite sex or of the same sex? How you're chemically/psychologically wired can't be changed. Who you fall in love with and have sex with can, and that's the point that you're not getting. Why would you choose to have sex with your sister or parent when you could find someone with those same qualities/features in someone else?


Indeed, you never implied that I seek to incarcerate those guilty of incest, but I wanted to make it clear that I'm against what these people are doing, but I'm not against them. I still believe they're human beings with rights, but I can't bring myself to agree with their actions. I respect that you feel as though my beliefs are illogical, but from my perspective your beliefs are also illogical. You're saying that you're pro-incest, yet it seems to me that you're only pro-incest in "positive situations" in which the family is accepting of it. I have to ask you personally. Would you be accepting of it if two members in your family confessed to having sex? I'm not sure what goes on in your household, but something tells me that a majority of families would not be accepting, and that seems to be the most logical/applicable of scenarios to debate about.


I've already explained why I feel homosexuality is acceptable and incest is not. Homosexuality/heterosexuality are sexual orientations. Incest is not. As I've said, you can't control what type of people you're attracted to, but you can control who you choose to have sex with and pursue a relationship with.


You can't make yourself attracted to a certain girl, but you can choose to abstain from having sex with her. If she's your sister or cousin I would expect that you'd ignore those feelings of attraction for the common good of yourself, your sister/cousin, and the rest of your family. (Even though I think it's highly abnormal to have those recurring thoughts in the first place.)


People don't talk about it because it's utterly despicable. And yeah, it does matter. If people won't even talk about it, chances are there's something wrong with it. You can say that there's nothing wrong with it, but try applying incest to your family, the families around you, etc. I think your argument is impractical. It is impractical because you are creating a "dream family" where everything would be perfect, brothers and sisters could have sex, everyone could walk around the house naked and lick eachother at the dinner table. I've personally never heard of or seen of anything like this, which makes me believe that people would be opposed to it.

As I've said, if you can give me an example of incest gone right, I'll commend you for it.


I appreciate your sincere adulations, but I do find them to be a deplorable attempt to try to make me "see" something that I am obviously choosing to resist. It's rather mind-boggling to think that homosexuality and interracial relationships could break a family up. THAT thought alone doesn't seem logical. But hey, I'm sure it happens. I'm also sure that incest happens. It's a pity you don't hear about it. That tends to make me think that it ends unsuccessfully /or on the Jerry Springer show.

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this heart that beats,
it beats for whom?

Assaulter

I actually said exactly that so once again read my post. Quit looking at it from an argumentative point of view.

Also on top of that its not 100 percent that they WILL be born with deformities. The chance is just heightened.

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Maisauce

Wrong. Inbred children always have problems of some sort, even if not obvious ones.

Assaulter

That is a ignorant approach at it. There are problems with all kinds of children you are basically saying that, just because they are inbred children with no choice of their own, they are worst than kids that weren't inbred even though they may look, act, and talk just like them. When it comes to what you are born with, it is and probably always will be the luck of the draw.

On top of that I have another scenario for ya. What if the family splits up for several years and never hears of each other till one day a brother in sister meet up. The brother becomes unknowingly attracted to her and they hook up. You say incest is wrong, but like I said how is it so hard to believe that a person can fall in love with someone else. So far many people have seen love as the most unexplainable thing on earth. Do you know how to explain love? Cause if so I'm sure everyone in the world would love to hear it.

Also another great thing to think about would be the word sister. As soon as you change it to step-sister, a sister like figure, or something along that line it turns into something that is ok and accepted. Once again as Ninja48 have said and Miburo have said the only real reason people don't like it is because of the whole "its unnatural so it shouldn't be done" mentality.

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Maisauce

How about this; you go have a few kids with one of your family members, and see how many extra fingers and teeth they have.

naruto slash

yummmy i love me some incest

























NOT!!!
it's gross and tottaly discusting theres no excuse for doing it. and if you are o0ne of those p[pl who find nothing wrong withit you are a m************ b*** c*** s***** s**** l******

Shikamaru

^THIS POST HAD SO MANY FACTS IT BLEW MY MIND!


personally, id find it very very odd and akward

but the harm with two people inside a family who're lonely (and possibly desperate) and want to have sex.... theres nothing i can come up with thatd be a problem if they weren't trying to have kids.


oh and the "its immoral" and "icky" argument is getting you no where, its a bullshit approach. I think vegetables are icky so should they be wrong as well? as for immoral, thats honestly only because thats what society has deemed it.

to be honest i dunno if siblings ever had sex cuz they were in "love" but mainly because they were desperate, and if thats the case then all those family issues wouldn't really be a problem..... its still creepy to think about though

Miburo

I'm going to condense this a bit and not reply to every little thing. If I skip over something that you feel illustrates your point of view then let me know and I'll address it.

If you mean everything that you've said here, then yeah. What 48 and I (And others) have said is simple logic. My stance in this debate isn't in anyway based on my personal opinion of incest.

No, I'm not saying that at all. I sincerely hope that people would be a lot less judgmental of shit that doesn't hurt anyone though, because that would definitely be a step in the right direction. But I'm not going to hold my breath, when it comes to being reasonable and logical about shit I don't have that much faith in people.

And seriously, you're missing the point of the homosexual analogy completely. You're agreeing with the fact that a person cannot choose who they're attracted to, right? You just feel that they should ignore that attraction if it's towards someone in their own family. Now, by that logic, why couldn't a homosexual ignore the attraction towards same sexed people and engage in a less taboo heterosexual relationship? It's the same damn thing as far as that goes. The exact fucking same.

And to answer that last question, why should they? If it's completely consentual, doesn't hurt anyone, and it's what they both want to do then why the fuck should they have to find someone else? Because popular opinion says it's icky? That's utterly ridiculous.

No, it's not in just "positive situations." Just like I wouldn't think any less of a homosexual if his homosexuality destroyed his family. I think it's perfectly fine in any situation as long as it's between consenting couples. Even if it happened in my own family, I wouldn't really give too much of a shit. Hell, I'd probably just laugh if I found out my cousins were banging each other or something. It doesn't hurt anyone, why the hell would I care?

Also, my stance is logically sound without any hypocrisies. If you think I'm the one being illogical then you just don't understand logic very well.

Homosexuals don't have to have sex with same sexed people. It'd just be pretty damn ridiculous to suggest that having a consensual relationship with someone you're attracted to as being wrong. Oh fuck, thing is, that's exactly what you're doing with incest though. Snap. = /

People didn't talk about being gay back in the day either, I guess that's because it was utterly despicable too amirite? /facepalm

And I've never tried to create a 'dream family'. Again, you're missing the point. It doesn't matter whether or not a family is accepting of it. 48 clearly demonstrated this already. I honestly don't see what you're not understanding here.

Let me explain how a logical debate works. Your personal feelings don't mean jack. If you are going to say it's morally wrong, then give a logical reason as to why. For your argument's sake, this reason shouldn't be able to be applied to another taboo relationship like homosexuality because we've both already established that to be perfectly fine.

Also, you're the one saying it's wrong. Therefor the burden of proof is solely on your shoulders. I'm saying there is nothing wrong with it, that's all. And if you knew anything about logic, you'd know that you can't prove a negative. I can't show you "nothing." Don't like it? Tough shit, that's how things work. Prove your claim that incest is morally wrong if that's what you think (While separating it from homosexuality, a similar taboo practice that you condone. Good luck with that), or just give up and admit that your belief isn't logical.
I agree, it is 'mind-boggling,' but it fucking happens. So by your logic both interracial and homosexual relationships should both be morally wrong as well. That's exactly why your "it cud break up families LOL" argument fails hard, because even you'll admit that there's nothing wrong with homosexuality or interracial relationships.

And there's no logical reason to believe that incestuous relationships cannot work. You've yet to demonstrate a single reasonable argument that could led any intelligent person to that conclusion. Again, back up your claims or admit that your sheepish stance on incest isn't logical. Figured I'd just say it bluntly this time, since you considered my appeal to reason to be 'deplorable'. ; )

Lumineon

I'm really starting to get annoyed by how you're throwing the word "logic" around as if you're some sort of self-proclaimed genius. Obviously anything that you say, in your eyes, is going to be logical. Why would you be arguing if you didn't feel you were being logical loloololol? The point of a debate isn't to say, "Okay you're being illogical" because it's understood that you feel that way. Why the fuck else would we be debating? But anyway, I shall proceed.

I was actually referring to everything that's been said here, lol. Simple logic, riiight. Fucking your sister/cousin is pure fucking logic on a stick. I totally get that man. Well, gee, I would sure hope that your stance in this debate isn't influenced by your personal opinion of incest. That would be rather bad.

The homosexual analogy is a weak one. You're failing to comprehend that the gender you prefer and the PERSON you choose to have sex with are two separate discussions. It would be more relevant to compare incest to pedophilia. I'm against incest because I feel that even if you do have a legitimate sexual attraction to a family member, you should keep it to yourself to avoid a myriad of problems that can develop as a result. In the same sense, any non-criminal pedophile will fantasize about children, but will never touch one of them so as to keep that child pure. That same logic can be applied to incest. In order to keep your relationship with that family member pristine, to avoid the possible break-up / disownment of a family/family members, those thoughts should be kept to oneself.

And if a pedophile and a minor engage in sexual activity that is consensual, does that make it right too? That's utterly ridiculous.

Yes it is. If it weren't just positive situations you would be able to argue against situations in which incest goes terribly wrong and destroys a family; instead, you've chosen the idealistic route, claiming that certain families will be okay with it. Well damn, how many families would be okay with it? I must be missing something here!

ROFL.


Okay Mr. Logic 2007. Whatever you say. Because obviously anything you say has got to be pure logic. It's really a shame you're not studying logistics isn't it?

Right. But hetero/homosexual relationships are wrong if they involve a family member. But hey, if you want to go sexx0r up a cousin or a sister, be my guest. I just hope things won't be too awkward the morning after.

Hm, that may be because there were other issues that were more pressing? Such as world wars, suffrage, slavery, civil wars and all that jazz? But I'll take your word for it, mister, it seems like you've lived through it!

Yes you have. I believe I already responded to this up above. Not going to waste my time reiterating. What makes you so sure that it doesn't matter if a family is accepting of it? Don't you think those involved in the incestuous relationship would want approval of the family so that they don't live the rest of their lives alone?

Oh man, I must have been absent that day when my debate coach was discussing how to have a successful logical debate. Thank you very much for clarifying this.

Wait, if my personal feelings don't mean jack, why would you bring up my stance on homosexuality in a debate about incest lol? The burden of proof doesn't rest on anybody's shoulders. Last time I checked there was no hard evidence supporting anything that's been said thus far in this topic. Oh wait, but maybe that's the "logic" you speak so highly of. Still, your opinion that is rehashed as some sugarcoated piece of "logical" garbage isn't proof of anything.


And by your logic incest and pedophilia should be morally justifiable as well. That's even scarier.

*yawn* This is becoming quite tiring. And all the unnecessary debate and logic bullshit isn't helping the issue. I'm not going to say that my belief is illogical, because I don't believe that to be true. If you're trying to convince me that there's nothing wrong with incest, you're failing. I'm not trying to convince anyone that incest is morally wrong. I'm stating that I feel it's morally wrong.

True, my argument may be discredited to some degree for its heavy abundance of anecdotes, but I do suppose that's better than not shedding any light on the issue at all and subsequently diverting the attention to another separate issue.

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this heart that beats,
it beats for whom?

kluang

Damn!!!!!!!

Now you force me to type long like Miburo. I hate type long. It make my finger go boo boo. T_T

Incest will cause inbreeding.

Inbreeding is bad.

Why?

It often leads to a reduction in genetic diversity, and the increased gene expression of recessive traits, resulting in inbreeding depression. This may result in inbred individuals exhibiting reduced health and fitness and lower levels of fertility.


Inbreeding leads to an increase in homozygosity (the same allele at the same locus on both members of a chromosome pair). This occurs because close relatives are much more likely to share the same alleles than unrelated individuals. This is especially important for recessive alleles that happen to be deleterious, which are harmless and inactive in a heterozygous pairing but, when homozygous, can cause serious developmental defects. Such offspring have a much higher chance of death before reaching the age of reproduction, leading to what biologists call inbreeding depression, a measurable decrease in fitness due to inbreeding among populations with deleterious recessives. Recessive genes, which can contain various genetic problems, appear more often in the offspring of procreative couplings whose members both have the same gene. For example, the child of persons who are both hemophiliac has a 100% chance of having hemophilia.

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Miburo

No, I'm completely willing to change my stance on something if a valid counter-argument is presented. All I'm saying is that when debating something you've got to go by logic instead of "lyke datz gross LOL!" You're not even trying to be logical, so why even try?


Way to miss the point, again. All I'm saying is that it isn't logical to think poorly of someone for doing something that doesn't hurt anyone and is completely consensual.
There's nothing weak about it. No shit they're not the same exact thing, if they were there wouldn't be anything differentiating them and they'd both be called the same thing. Yeah, one is having sex with a family member and one is with someone of the same sex.

They are both taboo though. The same arguments against one can easily be applied to the other (Not natural, gross, can cause stress on family, etc.). And they both don't harm anyone, and are both consensual. I've acknowledged the differences, you're just not even willing to acknowledge the blatantly obvious similarities. Those are the basis of my analogies. Is it really that hard to comprehend?

So why can't a gay guy have a legitimate sexual attraction to another dude, but keep it to himself to avoid the problems that can develop as a result? See, I can say the same damn thing about homosexuality as you're saying with incest. How can one be wrong but the other be a-okay? See where I'm going with the analogies yet?
Of course not. A minor cannot give consent due to the potential mental immaturity that goes along with being a minor. That's rape, which is clearly wrong. Incest between two capable consenting people isn't rape. That's the difference there. That's why it's more analogous to homosexual or interracial relationships, because it doesn't hurt anyone and is consensual.
I've never said it couldn't potentially ruin a family. I'm sure it can, just like interracial or homosexual relationships can. I said that doesn't have anything to do with morality. Go back and read 48's posts, there's a lot of things that could potentially ruin families. Saying they're all morally wrong would be retarded.

I never implied that. Though, if you disagree you're more than welcome to prove anything I've stated to being illogical instead of poorly attempting to mock me to save face. Also, not really considering logistics has very little to do with logic or reasoning. Or was that supposed to be a clever play on words? ; )
I'm sure all those homosexuals who tell their parents that they're gay were never placed into awkward situations within the family as a result, right? Horrible logic is horrible.
Yeah, basic human rights definitely don't constitute as anything to take into consideration. = /
Of course they would. So would homosexuals. The fact that family members don't approve doesn't make the taboo wrong though. That's the point.

Yeah, you definitely must have. No problem, don't mention it. I'm nice like that.
To show an inconsistency in your logic, that's why. And your stance is based solely around the fact that you and others find it icky. That's applying a personal opinion universally. My stance is the default. I'm simply stating that until there's a logical reason to believe incest is wrong, it shouldn't be considered wrong. That's just common sense and basic logic that can be applied to almost anything.

Nope. Pedophilia is fundamentally different from incest and other harmless taboos. See above.
Yeah, damn logic in debates, what's up with that? And I couldn't care less if I convince you or not, I've realized quite a while ago that you're obviously not going to change your stance no matter how illogical it is. And state whatever you want, I'm just stating that you're wrong. If it's so tiring for you to fail at debating, then feel free to call it quits. No skin off my back.
You're right. Unfortunately for you, no one arguing against you has failed to shed light on the issue or diverted attention to anything else. They have, however, been voices of reason and used relevant analogies to discredit your arguments and point out inconsistencies in your logic though. Nice try, anyway. ; )

@Kluang- Ever hear of birth control? Damn, all that typing (If you count copying and pasting a section from wiki as typing) for nothing. XD

Naruto.Haruno

So since someone is related to you, they cannot be attractive in your eyes, is that what you are saying?

I think it's okay. ;D

They are both Jerry Springer bo'shit. =]
Homosexuality, Incest, it's all on Jerry Springer. ;D

I can find reasons. Love, attraction just like all the reasons someone would wish to have sex with another person.

If that is so, why is there incest?

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