Originally Posted by The Special One

Am I the only person who thinks that Tobi was natural born? I mean Madara could have came up with the name Tobi and infiltrated Akatuski's ranks. Here is my theory, it regards Itachi's true motives/morality, Sasuke's survival, and Madara's past as well as his present. Akatuski's history is also part of this.

15 years ago the Kyuubi brought terror and destruction to the Konoha village. The strongest of Konoha shinobi were sent off to face this terrible beast. I believe Madara could have been in the front line on the assault on the Kyuubi. But perhaps Madara wanted to leave the village and come up with his own plans for success. When he encountered the Kyuubi, he decided not to fight for Konoha anymore, and chose not to put his life in danger. The Kyuubi came face to face with Madara but they did not fight. Perhaps the Kyuubi saw the chakra of Madara, the cursed chakra was even more sinister that his own. Kyuubi let the sharingan user flee because he had more problems on his hands, like the 4th Hokage and the surronding Konoha shinobi.

But lets back up just one minute, if Madara was Konoha ninja and an Uchiha, he must have been part of the clan. So its likely that Madara and his fellow Uchiha members actually interacted at one time. Is it possible that Madara and Itachi had some sort of relationship? Itachi was a skilled ninja even in his early childhood, is it possible that Madara could have trained Itachi in secret? Perhaps Madara was a warrior who fought plenty battles and wanted to pass down his skills to another clan member and he found that guy in the young boy, Itachi. Perhaps Madara stumbled upon the Mangekyou Sharingan a long time ago, in a mission. The enemy could have been a dangerious threat and for his survival, he'd have to kill his own friend. Madara wanted to live, so he did it. Kakashi mentioned in tough situations, sometimes you could be forced to kill a friend, to ensure the saftey of another.

Perhaps a similar case happen and Madara discovered the true power of the sharingan. Of course Madara's sharingan was possibly at its top form, and with that as well with the death of his friend by his own hands, the Mangekyou Sharingan awakened. Perhaps that one battle changed him, and planned his escape from Konoha. Maybe he faked his death when the Kyuubi came. Although is body was never found, all of the front line soliders could have died and Madara would have been erased. So Madara could have been motivated by war, death of his friend, or just the urge to survive as long as possible and gather as much power as needed to protect his life. Even though Madara was powerful, he could not gurantee that he would live through all of the battles without getting injured, maybe he planned to have an Army established and to create a mass of wealth to ensure that he could remain on top and to control missions world wide as well as ensure that mercanaries and the flow of great economy remained perfect. That sounds unique to Akatuski's plans, perhaps Madara was (is) the commissioner, and founder of Akatuski.

Anyway lets assume that he trained Itachi to be a sleeper agent. We all know that Itachi was born in Konoha, but what if Madara brainwashed him with the sharingan? Perhaps he saw something in Itachi than in no other Uchiha member. He taught Itachi all about the secrets of the Mangekyou Sharingan and planned out the eradication of the Uchiha clan for years. The way Itachi handled the situation was flawless, he must have prepared for it in the past. But Itachi was not one to be completely fooled. Maybe he spared his brother on his own accord, in hopes of stopping Madara if he somehow failed. We've seen Itachi talk about in the past, about why he killed his clan. To measure his capability, that's strange, its not something children come to think about on their own.

Before the killing of his clan, Itachi left the house quite often, to do what, train, prepare for slaughtering, meet up with Madara? But why would Madara want the death of his clan? There has to be another reason besides wanting to be part of a clan resulting in a couple of people. There has to be something deeper, for something to be achieved, the power of the clan must not be at its best. The inheritance of the Uchiha clan. Maybe its a mass sum of money that he wanted his hands on, and to get his organization started, the Uchiha clan's money must be obtained. He knew if he risked putting himself in that situation, would be quite dangerious, even though he could have got away with it, he wanted to be sure, so he used Itachi. If any other clan member knowing of the legacy surivied, it could mean trouble because Konoha would be after him. So the eradication of the Uchiha clan was a must.

Itachi took back more than just the lives of his clan members, he took all of the fundings the Uchiha clan recieved Konoha, secret actions, and more up until that point. Perhaps on Itachi's record, he's recorded as an S-class criminal not just because of killing his clan members, but because of stealing a massive amount of wealth. Madara was Itachi's shadow, so its likely that not many people knew about his treason and bad intents. Madara just needed a boost in his organization, so attacking the Uchiha clan was needed because they knew the area perfectly and spent most of their time in the clan back in the day. Madara did not want to cause anymore trouble and the Uchiha wealth was enough, so made off with his winnings. Okay I'll back it up again. Itachi was barely able to keep his conscience, but he decided to spare his brother in hopes of his surpassing him as well as killing Madara.

So Itachi could be a double agent, althoug Madara's eyes were stronger than Itachi's so he fell pray and possibly actually afraid of Madara. Itachi told Sasuke to kill his friend Naruto, knowing that he's a jinchuuriiki, it could damage Madara's plans. For the most part, Itachi played his role as the accussed villian, but he had no choice, he grew accustomed and the attempt for Naruto's death was not coming, so he followed Akatuski's demands. As strong as Itachi is, he could not handle Madara and those who follows him indirectly. Akatuski was created by Madara, and he chose Pein as the leader of the group. When people get recruited, Pein heres about it, confirms their status with Madara in secret and than Pein makes the move in adding them. Its no doubt that Madara was shocked to see Sasuke alive, but he played along, maybe he saw betrayal in Itachi, or possibly a new person to control.

But are Pein and the Akatuski girl brainwashed as well? Madara saw that his group was falling apart with the leave of Orochimaru and the death of Sasori. So, Madara stole someone's identity and infiltrated his own organization as a new member. Obviously Pein and the Akatuski girl were in on it. Madara, or Tobi wanted to see first hand was his organization were up to, he played the idiot and watched over Deidara. He did not show his powers when coming across Sasuke because he wanted to his identity to remain a secret. But the problem now is who was taking over Akatuski's chair while Madara was gone. It was most likely Pein and the Akatuski girl. They kept order of the place and made sure everything remained intacted. Okay back to Tobi. He witnessed Sasuke's powers and grew amazed. He thought it was a good reason Itachi left him alive. Tobi thinks he could control him, but comments to Pein and the Akatuski girl that Sasuke's eyes would surpass Itachi's.

Perhaps Madara ordered Pein and the Akatuski girl to go after Naruto because he wanted Sasuke to go up against Itachi in the long run, so that he could rid himself of the one who may have something against him. Is it possible that Madara sees this same power that he saw in Itachi long ago?

Well I'm finished. I'll post this in both threads...

Originally Posted by MikeyM1979

o_O

You guys are funny. Tobi specifically stated he has the power of Uchiha Madara. Why would he say it like that? If he meant simply the Sharingan, why not say he has the power of the Sharingan? Or power of the Uchiha's? Why say Madara's power? Me thinks Madara got Kakuzu to fix up Obito's body, then transfered his soul into it. And, you know, Orochimaru was around. A jutsu like that would most definitely interest someone like him. So he probably learned it from Madara. That or he's the one who performed the jutsu instead, taking Madara's soul and placing it into a newly constructed Obito. Kakuzu was basically the medical nin of Akatsuki, no? Lots of it makes sense now.

What I don't get, is why he's hidden his identity to the others. Why is it that only Pein and the blue haired girl (that we know of), and possibly Zetsu and Kakuzu, know of his true identity? And possibly Orochimaru. Was it because Itachi would've tried to wipe out Madara in Obito's body? I mean, his goal was to kill the entire clan except for Sasuke and himself. Finding out another Uchiha was around would probably set Itachi off.

Originally Posted by Shrike

Tobi has nothing to do with Obito and he is Uchiha Madara. I don't see what's all the fuss about here, really.

Originally Posted by trondah

There's absolutely no proof to those two statements. On the contrary, it's very likely that Tobi = Obito.

Originally Posted by Shrike

Really? Where did you get that from? Have you read the chapter? You did? Great, go read it again.
Tobi said that he is Uchiha Madara, that is all there is to it. There is not mention of Uchiha Obito whatsoever.

Originally Posted by brandoi

How about you re-read it. Tobi says the power of Uchiha Madara, not I am Uchiha Madara.

Originally Posted by Mystik

edit: and another note Pein has never lost to anyone so why would he loose to naruto.

Originally Posted by Shrike

So....wanna tell me where you got that from?

Originally Posted by Oakgyrl510

did you forget naruto has never really lost either? also the story is called NARUTO after all....he is bound to prevail in the end of every situation lol...even with the one he is in with sasuke, he WILL prevail then too =]

Originally Posted by Kakkakuzu

Probably from either of two different translated mangas around the internet, that both have translated it as "my power, the power of Uchiha Madara"... neither of the ones I've seen have had it as "the power of I, Uchiha Madara". You have to understand that people read the translations here, and not everyone in the world understands Japanese. There's no way for people like us to know better, if translations got it wrong. (Although I admit it's stupid to go around calling people idiots if you're relying on someone else's translation)

I don't know about the others, but I have always assumed that people who translate these animes and mangas know what they're doing, but it seems they make mistakes as well. It's just weird that two different translators got it wrong in the same way (unless the other one just copied the other one, but there was some differences there, but they could be intentional to cover up the copying).

Originally Posted by yume

Naruto lost against kakashi when they were training.
He also lost to Sasuke a couple of time.
He also lost against Rock Lee.
He lost against Tsunade too.
And Sasuke kicked his butt again in their final showdown

And I think I could list a few (lot?) more.

But yes, I think Pain's gonna die pretty soon. Cuz between you and me.. I don't think Naruto's gonna die yet And if Pain fails... then his boss gonna one-shot-kill him

Originally Posted by Oakgyrl510

did you forget naruto has never really lost either? also the story is called NARUTO after all....he is bound to prevail in the end of every situation lol...even with the one he is in with sasuke, he WILL prevail then too =]