Tookaipai

exactly! i dont see why everyone is up in arms about abortion... Especially when it isnt there own!!! If they consider the embryo 'potential life' then couldnt a woman having a period be considered wrong!?!?!? after all the egg that could 'potentially' give life is gone!
(yeah its kind of a stupid analogy but it works)

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Literary Mary

Mystik

all life is a gift from god.. so a woman who was rapped or a woman coming from some type of incest is all that a gift from god.. no it isnt so you cant technically say that can you..

Tookaipai

and taking these even furthur, a child who grows up to be a serial killer or a raper, is he a gift from god to society? If so then its a pretty crappy gift

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Literary Mary

Craigkage

Right lets get things straight... OF COURSE individual cases are going to speak fuzzily... What I am talking about is LIFE/EXISTANCE itself. We are told time and time again that EXISTANCE is down to a loving God who is the creator of all things good in this cosmos.

Think how the child would think if all it knew was that it was simply a 'mistake' that it wasn't loved, hated, resented. Does it not have a dignity and responsibility to bear God's image either? Does it not have a right to be known as God's beloved? THUS....

This is why things are so grey... I would TOTALLY sympathize with the situation if a woman decided to abort. I'm afraid in jumping the gun in criticising what your perception of my post was, you missed the most important part.

Actions such as taking a life are not to be taken lightly. I'm a pacifist so I don't believe in killing and war e.g. BUT I'm not ignorant to say that with an issue such as rape, a woman, no in fact if she's married, the COUPLE should not think about abortion. I would perfectly sympatise with them if they did. The "Bible tells me so" arguments are not always helpful.

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Miburo

Word. People pretend like it's some sort of big issue with a lot of gray areas, but it really isn't. Same thing with shit like gay marriages and the like. There really is a cut and dry, black and white, answer that is fair for all parties. If adults decide they want to do something that doesn't effect other people negatively, then just let them do it. Something being legal doesn't mean it's mandatory or anything, so if you're against it then simply don't fucking do it. Don't be a douchebag about it by trying to push your (Not any particular you, just using it in a general way here to explain myself) personal beliefs on others. It really is that simple.

The only reason it's an issue at all is because there's a lot of stupid people who think that their personal beliefs should be applied universally instead of considering what's fair for everyone, for some idiotic reason.

Oh, and your analogy is definitely applicable.

And why is it that every time we try to have an intelligent discussion in this place someone has to bring their damn imaginary friend into it, as if he's the ultimate go-to guy for all things moral?

@Craig-Define what you mean by alive. Because an embryo is about as alive as my pinky finger. It definitely is potential life, but it's not a person by any means. It has no self-awareness, consciousness, or anything of the sort. (A counter to this would obviously be infants and people in comas, but neither one of those situations can be compared to this situation. After all, in both those instances they can still maintain life by other means that don't involve direct leeching of a single individual's body. An embryo cannot live on it's own under any means, it relies solely on the woman. It's more just a part of her body at that moment than it is a stand alone individual.) So throwing around words like 'killing' and 'life' are definite over-emotionalizations of what the reality is.

Mystik

omfg finally someone with some sense.. what you have just said is what i have been trying to tell people.. but i think you worded it better then me lol..

Craigkage

Have heard it all before I guess... Actually I have a simple answer to this which actually includes an apology...

For some stupid reason, I thought I was in the Christian FC section, which is why I included all that God stuff... I apologise for coming across dogmatic etc..(There's a similar thread in that section) I guess its stupid to apologise for including my beliefs because these are crucial to our own worldviews and opinions, anyway I didn't actually intend it read off like that...

As for a lack of grey areas... Life is definitely not as simple as that... You're sounding dogmatic yourself by saying that... Whether we like it or not, our so called 'personal and private' reasons will always have larger repurcussions on the wider community. Yes we all have a choice I'll give you that, yes it's not for people to go sticking their noses in, but we can't be fooled into thinking that our actions (whatever they are, and I'm not here to say what they SHOULD be) won't have wider consequences than we can forsee.

As for defining a 'life', I can't give you a satisfactory scientific answer per say, but scientific studies are showing that an embryo is alot more aware than you may think...

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Ninja48

Examples please. How could our personal and private reasons for doing something have an effect on the wider community? Sure, if these reasons for doing whatever definitely affects something else, it would. But if they don't affect anything, it won't do anything. If there are any ways that we wouldn't know of, provide an example. If you can't, then there's no reason to prevent other people from getting abortions. How would someone deciding to abort their child have any more of an effect than someone deciding to get a vasectomy?

And yo, don't give me "lol the aborted child might be a geniousness lol." Of course there's a chance, but there's a chance that it might turn out to be Hitler or some shit. Chance is completely irrelevant, because each chance is as likely as another in this case.

Also, what scientific studies? Link please. That ought to be interesting.

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Miburo

I wasn't talking about life in general, just the debate on abortion (And other similar debates that involve the rights of people when it won't negatively effect anyone else.). And yes, it really is pretty much as simple as I'm laying it out. What someone does with their own body should be their own choice, there is absolutely no logical reason for anyone to think that their personal opinions should be forced onto others in this scenario.

And it wouldn't be fair at all to suggest that people's rights should be limited, or that something is wrong, because there may be some unforeseeable consequence to their actions. That'd just be silly, dude. You could apply that to literally anything and then say it's wrong. So that reasoning won't fly.

Shoot a link this way, that'd be quite a feat considering the first brain wave activity doesn't show up until around the sixth week. And even then, that doesn't mean anything considering actual infants themselves show pretty much no self-awareness. It really is more of an extension of the woman's body much more than it is an independent living organism at that point of development. I'd still compare it to getting my pinky finger amputated over the taking of life.

halibut14

if you are looking at it from a pro life perspective then you will see that murder is murder regardless of how hard it is. It's like saying it's too inconvient to feed this starving person who is about to die so i guess i wont. i know that's kind of a poor example but i think you get what i mean. if you just happen to get raped then life suckes for you. it's accidental for most people so they dont have an excuse.

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mrpiimpnn

I think Abortion is a womens choice because it is her body and her decision not anyone elses.

brandoi

Yes, it should be, but many people see abortion as killing another human being, yet, there have been many debates as to when you can consider an embryo a real life and when its not alive.

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mrpiimpnn

I don't mean waiting until the babies about to come out to kill it. I mean like abort it when its very young such as a month or 2-3 months into the pregnancy

killer_spoon

Hmm I couldent have said it better myself. A womens choice.

brandoi

That's exactly what they are debating about. How much time needs to pass before you can call it a living person?

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