Minamoto4444

I agree with you on this one if a girl is raped that was not her choice and therfore she has every right to abort it

Its not a pile of flesh it is a soul that hasnt had a chance to develop.


thats just the point!! its potentail life if I was a girl and was careing you(this is just a exaple) and was wondering if I should have a abortion(because of course your just a parasite to me) which would you rather have happen I kill you,or I live with my choices, have you and put you up for adoption think about it


again going back to my exaples from past posts If the fetus ruins my life to bad I chose to have sex without a condom knowing full well I could get pregnent and because of this this is the outcome I get

P.S. sorry if my spelling is suckish im on my friends laptop with no Dictonary in sight

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DarkAztek

A soul? Sounds like a religious reason. Keep your rosaries off my ovaries.


It's always easy to use another typical pro-life tactic and make it personal to people. Fact of the matter is that potential life does not have the same rights as actual life... Otherwise I'd be getting calls about killing puppies whenever my dog humps the furniture.

You are also arguing that sex is only for reproduction. Ah, that's an opinion that is not supported by the law. What happens in the bedroom is my private business and the government cannot stop me so long as it is between consenting adults.

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Minamoto4444

look Im just going to give up on trying to explain my opinion on abortion because you and I just dont see eye to eye with this one anyway. all ime saying is that if a teenage girl gets pregnent that she should not be allowed to have an abortion,and also what I mean by soul is that even if your a Athiest, Buddha whatever there is something inside us that drives us to make our own choices and belifs.one last thing before I leave this Topic I would like to mention a qoute I heard "Only those who are already born support abortion"

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DarkAztek

1) This is the debate forum. If you don't want me to pick your opinion to pieces here, then don't post.

2) You keep saying the same thing without giving any reasons for why you believe it. You seem to believe that at conception we are human and that potential life == real life. I'm asking you WHY you believe that.

Using soul as an argument is piss poor... Especially if you say that it applies to all religions. The concept of a soul is a religious one and using it as reasoning to prevent women from having abortions is not applicable in a court of law. Why? Separation of Church and State.

3) No shit those who are already born support abortion. You really see Johnny Fetus, with no electrical impulses in his head saying anything about ANYTHING? Hell no. It's a goddamn fetus. I'll use your same fallacy against you: How do you know that the fetus doesn't WANT to be aborted?

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Greendayfan82905

Everyone has the right to live. And there's a chance that at a certain point, the baby can survive outside the womb. They might have to be in the hospital for a while to gain weight and stuff but still they're alive. They deserve a chance to live.

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Tookaipai

Yeah there are two things that drive us to make our own decisions, Free Will, and our Brains... Nothing more nothing less. Saying that abortion is wrong because they have souls is just a belief... When there is scientific proof that we all have souls, shoot a link this way and i'll be happy to admit that i was wrong

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DarkAztek

Every PERSON has a right to life. ...But I'm arguing that a fetus doesn't even resemble a person until a few months in. No brain waves? No way. Heck, it's not born yet. It's alive in the same way that sperm is alive or that maybe even my thumb is "alive." It's not self aware.

Let me ask you this much: How do you feel about someone that is brain dead? Say a person has a stroke and they become a veggie with no hope of coming out of it. There's no brain activity at all. Would it be so wrong if the plug was pulled on the life support for them?

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Lightspeedlady

I say "Thank whatever mystical force you believe in that they got to live in the first place and, indeed, lived long enough to be able to suffer a stroke and experience the world. Now let's pull the plug".

Or... you can't really compare the two. Abortion should not be acceptable in any case EXCEPT when the life of the mother is at risk... an A-topic pregnancy for example.

Once a sperm fuses with an ovum, there will be a baby unless the mother miscarries. To deny the fetus the right to live is immoral... if not amoral. There is also no reason why the woman who was considering getting rid of the baby couldn't give it up for adoption.

Well, why don't we just let it born, then ask it if it wants to live. Maybe it'll blink once for yes and twice for no?

Or, you know, ask someone like Sarah, here.

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Ninja48

^Do I have any right to deny the potential life in my balls the right to live by masturbating? It really depends on how "potential" the life is, really. Theres a period in time that the fetus is nothing but a lump of growing flesh, and theres a time where it can be defined as a seperate life independent of the mother. The woman should have control of her body until the fetus is an independent life.

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Lightspeedlady

Wank away, you're not killing anything if it hasn't fused with an egg.

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Ninja48

I'm killing potential life, aren't I? How potential does the life have to be before it's illegal? Do we have no right to stop potential life if it has too much chance to become actual life?

Once the sperm has fused with the egg, the life is still not independent. It's directly part of the mother's life until it develops it's own brain and nerves and etc. Stopping this process before hand at one time would be no different from another time. Like, aborting a fetus before it becomes self aware is no different than having sperm blocked by some rubber elastic at the entry of the uterus.

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Lightspeedlady

Okay, no. Did you read what I said? You're not killing potential life. Here's why.
A sperm is a sex cell called a gamete. A gamete is a haploid cell. This means it only has half the number of chromosomes that a non reproductive (somatic) cell has. It has absolutely no chance of being anything remotely human until it combines with a female haploid cell.

Also, new sperm is produced constantly. You body makes new sperm all the time. So by your reasoning, you're killing thousands of potential babies every day. Guess that makes you a murderer just for being alive.

Also, whether you masturbate or not the is a chance you could ejaculate.

Whether by your hand or not (no pun intended), sperms will perish.

A baby still isn't independent of its Mother after it's born. Kinda needs one to live, yeah? Feed it? Give it love? (Taking for granted that the Mother is well and capable of performing those tasks).

Your logic is flawed. Your argument is also irrelevant because my point was that it deserves life only after the sperm has fused with an egg.

Until then it is a haploid cell which doesn't even contain the same number of chromosomes a human is supposed to.

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Ninja48

Yeah yeah, I'm aware a single gamete only contains half the DNA a fetus has. But they're still potential life, aren't they? Don't they eventually create life? Following this logic, pretty much any living person can be seen as potential life, and therefore I figure that deciding how "potential" the life is has no relevance to whether or not it has a right to live.

Yes, by my reasoning, I'm a mass murderer. But that's my whole point. Just because life has a high potential to be created doesn't mean that the circumstances for this potential have to be sustained.
I should have added that I meant biologically. As in, if you take the fetus out of the womb, can it live by itself? And by live, I mean only to keep it's heart beating and lungs working (if it's developed them yet). If it can live on it's own, then it's a seperate human life independent of the mother.

The fetus only has a right to live once it actually... starts living.

You're saying it deserves the right to live once the sperm fuses and etc. I'm saying it deserves this right once it starts to live, not just when the zygote is created. Why? A zygote doesn't live, it only has potential to live. If we forbid ending the process of the creation of life at that stage, it would be similar to ending the process any other time before it (i.e. before the fusion and etc).

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Lightspeedlady

I'm gonna make this quick, cause I'm tired, slightly inebriated and I've got to do some study....

You're clearly not aware. A gamete does not have half the DNA. It has half the chromosomes. A fetus can have have hundreds of thousands more cells than a gamete, ergo, more chromosomes. A gamete is not potential life. It doesn't even have the correct amount of chromosomes to be human. You're also assuming that a sperm will eventually create life. It won't. It's there if you want to create life,or, are too stupid to not wear a condom or take a pill and have sex. And how is it logical for every living person to be seen as a potential life? It is a life. I'm typing aren't I? I'm pretty sure I exist. But who's to say it's true? I'll save that for a different debate though.

There is no such thing as a potential life btw. Once a sperm and an ovum combine, there is a life. There can only be a potential for a life. I.e., you have a sperm, some girl has an egg, and if you were to knock her up she'd give birth.

My God, I wish there was a quote out of context thread here...

No, there circumstances do not have to be sustained. But, you know, at least you admit you're murdering the poor defenseless fetus. Admission is the start on the road to recovery, you know?

Hmm. I dunno. Check with this girl.

Wrong. We are responsible for what we create, like it or not. A child is not some piece of litter you can casually send away with the trash. It is a precious thing and I say that a child in a womb has the same rights as a child outside of it.

No, a zygote is living. It goes through mitosis and cell development. During this time is relies on the Mother for food, just as us "living" humans rely on plants and animals for food.

Let me ask you this: Who are you to presume you have the right to forbid something from being fully developed. Who the hell are you to kill a child because it's not convenient for it to be alive? Your Mother didn't make that choice. Anyone of our Mothers might have considered and abortion. Well thank God they didn't, because I know that I'm happy to be here. Even if I was dragged up through the shabbiest orphanage at least I was given the chance to make something of my life. We have no right take life on a whim. That is what a fetus is. An unborn life. The most innocent, defenseless life there is.

And another question! Your best female friend becomes pregnant. She's ecstatic. Can't wait to have her own child. Unfortunately she miscarries. How do you console here? "Ah, don't worry, love. 'Twas only a lumpy mass of flesh and cells anyway. It was never really your child."

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dfacto

The question is if it is human or not. You can make arguments for and against for the third trimester and late 2nd trimester, but for the first and early second trimester an embryo/fetus is as much human as an egg is a chicken. The potential is there, but it isn't a reality.

Not human? Rights are forfeited to the mother. A legally and morally clean stance which allows unwanted and dangerous pregnancies to be easily terminated. No humans are harmed in the process. In fact, a human is helped in the process.

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