Lightspeedlady

Here's my scientific argument for a fetus being human:

A human has 46 chromosomes. No other species on earth has that amount.
A fetus has 46 chromosomes.
Therefore a fetus is human.

And egg is not a chicken nor has the potential to be a chicken because it has not been fertilised. Now, we eat omelette's for breakfast, but we certainly don't say we're eating chickens. In the same way, a woman's ovum is not a baby. That implies a man's sperm is not a baby either (Ninja 48)...

The reality is that once an ovum is fertilised there will be a gestation period for 9 months and a child will be born unless somebody kills the child before it matures in the womb.

It is far from morally clean or we wouldn't be debating this issue, would we? Suppose the Mother is a victim of rape and is in a state of trauma. She may just make a rash decision that she hasn't thought through. The pregnancy may not have be unwanted- just definitely unplanned. In fact, many or most surprise pregnancies can result in an irrational Mother and a rash decision.

I disagree that abortion can "help" anyone. I've read enough interviews with post- abortion women to know that they can be very psychologically traumatising. If you'd like me to find some links, I can, but I'm sure there's no disputing that there are severe psychological repercussions.

Abortion does not "help" anyone. It only hurts people more. It looks like a quick and easy way out of a situation. It's not. It will leave a deep scar in the woman's life forever- not to mention the Father's.


I find abortion to be a very selfish, one sided issue. It only worries about one life, the Mother: It's my body- my choice, this baby would ruin my life, I won't be able to finish school, I want freedom for a few more years... we've all heard these statements as if they're actually substantial reasons to kill a child. It's not the Mother's body -at least not just hers. There is another one inside her. No baby will actively ruin your life, only you can let it. A Mother will love her baby on human instinct alone. A child might even save some poor girl's life, who knows? There are more important things in life than school and what the neighbours think. Having is family is one of them, imo. Suppose the woman does decide, for certain, that it isn't the right time in her life for a child. Fine. Don't kill it. Give birth to it and give it up for adoption. Just let it live.

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dfacto

So Down's fetuses aren't human, and we should abort them? I'm thinking you won't argue that.

You have a paper thin classification strategy, and you should own up to it. Using strictly genetics to classify what is human ignores some very real concerns, such as development and viability.

What happens when scientists cobble together a 46 chromosome genetic chimera for genetics research? Would that be a human? You'd be hard pressed to maintain your criteria, for the reason that they are too simplistic to accurately encompass what "human" really is in any sense, even the genetic.

You have an argument that is far more clever and highbrow than what most pro-lifers employ, but as with the others it attempts to paint a black and white picture of an issue with multiple shades of gray.

I was referring to a fertilized egg that is being incubated, which would be analogous to an embryo/fetus.

What about miscarriages? Statistics on those are fairly telling, not to mention that there is reason to suspect that as many as 20% of pregnancies or more end in miscarriage in the early stages, being mistaken for a heavy period. Not using this as part of my argument, but I just wanted to point out that a pregnancy is not a one way roller coaster to childbirth, and often ends before the woman even notices she's pregnant.

And when she does think it through and realizes that she will be burdened with a child that is an unwanted product of a violent and painful act...? I'm sure there are rape victims who have decided to keep the child, but making it illegal for the woman to abort the child is the sickest subversion of justice possible. It is punishing the victim, essentially for no reason at all other than biblical morality or nearsighted social policy.

Oh yeah, lets just spin it like this, then spin it like that, and hey it's not that bad! Oh whoops, it's just a pregnancy, lets not be so hasty with the coat hangars! *teehee*

Think. Really think. Put yourself in the shoes of someone hurt, someone desperate, someone hopeless, someone whose life would be destroyed by a pregnancy, and at best irrevocably altered, whether it was from rape or not. Now imagine someone comes to you and tells you to suck it up, because a non-sentient, non-viable sack of meat is more important than a grown woman. Fuck you, fuck your wishes, you're having that baby!

I'm sorry, but is it not within the rights of any government to do that without exceptionally well defined reasons. And no, "It has 46 chromosomes" doesn't cut it in the least.

I would certainly imagine that it could be a very traumatizing procedure for some, but lets cut to the chase and admit that no persuasive argument can be made that abortion is a harmful social ill, or a personally damaging experience of a nature that would warrant a state or federal ban. Women get knocked up, women get abortions, and society wouldn't so much as bat an eyelash if it weren't for the pro-life movement.

Now you're just throwing out massive generalizations. Ones that are most likely cobbled together from hand-picked pro-life stories.


Why? Why bring a child into the world when it isn't wanted, and when it will face an uncertain fate? Why bring a child into the world when the place it should have is not available? Why not cut life short while it is not yet a fully functioning being, even on a basic level? Does the fetus have kids to feed, or a wife that will grieve for it when it's gone? Does it have hopes and dreams? Does it even breathe!?

What is it that makes the abortion of a proto-human so abhorrent? Sentimentality? Naively selective compassion? Fear that God will do some smiting?

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Ninja48

Lightspeedlady, you're missing my point.

Just because some flesh has enough chromosomes to be considered human doesn't mean it's alive. My pinky finger has cells with these chromosomes; is it a seperate human life?

Abortion before brain waves emerge is the same as blocking sperm with rubber in the vagina, because they're both getting in the way of creating life in the same way, you know? They both stop potential life. To argue that abortion should be illegal is arguing that contraceptives should be illegal. The fact that abortion stops potential life from growing is not a good argument, because lots of things do that.

Again, you define human life as something that has enough human chromosomes. My pinky finger has my DNA, doesn't it? Is it human life? Not really. For something to be human life, it collectively needs sentience. Therefore, since abortion (before brain waves are detected) does not kill sentient human life, it's not murder. It's murder in the same way as me jacking off is murder. Both only get in the way of the process of growing life; neither kill life after it begins.

By my definition of life anyway.

I hope you're understanding me, I might not be expressing myself correctly. I probably wouldn't understand me neither.

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Greendayfan82905

Yes it is wrong, because a miracle could happen suddenly and they could start having brain activity again!

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Lightspeedlady

Er, my point is that no child should be aborted. A child with Down's syndrome has a genetic defect and deserves compassion and love.

Genetics was only given has an example, don't get me wrong. But in the same way a cat embryo will become a cat, a human embryo will become a human. A fetus is only a stage in a person's development. Once we leave the womb we're still developing- brain, heart, other organs... everything.

That's speculative and you have no grounds for that argument until (or rather if) that happens.

I only see a little fuzzy part of grey in the middle reserved for when the Mother's life is threatened. There is only right and wrong when taking an innocent child's life. You wouldn't send a man to death without a fair trial. A child can't ask for representation, can it? That's why pro- lifers are here. Consider me a lawyer on behalf of the unborn.

A misunderstanding, thank you for the clarification.

I'm sorry if I seemed ignorant, but I purposefully left miscarriages out of my argument. A miscarriage is either natural or caused by some accident. It's not intentional. Therefore I don't have any reason to include them- I do do know that not all sperm/ ovum fusions will end in a birth.

That, I'm afraid is an opinion. Rape is a disgusting crime but putting the woman though MORE psychological trauma will not help her. IMO, the only positive thing that could possibly come of rape is a precious innocent who may just grow up to be the Ghandi, Lincoln or Nelson Mandela.

You know, that was more than a bit distasteful. And no, it'll be hard. But life is hard. We all have to accept that much, at least.

I'm sorry. dfacto, I have no clue about your age, situation and so on, but do you have kids? Cause if you don't now, you might someday. And when your partner is pregnant and happy, I want you to look her in the eye and say "what is in you is a non- sentient, non- viable sack of meat." Please, record her reaction for me.

Who's life would be destroyed by pregnancy? Please don't try to inform me that by dropping out of highschool or not getting a college education and not securing some professional 9-5 is ruining someone's life.

I have put myself in that place, many times. It would be frightening and lonely. But I know that not for the world would I allow that rapist to take anymore than he already has. I wouldn't dare give in and destroy my life with the guilt and anguish I know would follow an abortion. I'm afraid you can't dispute that because they are my personal feelings. You asked for an opinion, I gave it. Abortion is the second act of injustice and desecration upon the woman.

That's an opinion, not a steadfast law.You know well that 46 chromosomes is only on argument of many.

I'm afraid, contrary to what you seem to think, that pro- lifers ARE a part of society and a damn large part if it's still illegal in some countries, mine being one of them.

I believe it has been made abundantly clear, by any woman I've ever known or heard of who's had an abortion, that it leaves deep mental scars. I'm not generalising. Or at least, certainly not cobbling.

How could you even dream of suggesting that there is such a thing as an unwanted child? Maybe they don't know it yet but every child is wanted by someone. Whether it's the thousands of couples across the globe, hoping to adopt, or someone who will love the child later in life, a child is always wanted. We all face an uncertain fate. We are not born with some dedicated place, some alotment. Someone once thought we did though... what was his name...? Oh yeah, Hitler... Just because a being is not "fully functioning" is no excuse to kill it.

Sentimentality?
Yes, that's one. And I daresay an important emotion which makes us human.

Naively selective compassion?
No, nothing selective about it. Everyone has the right to life.

Fear of God?
Let's leave God out of this. I find abortion is more of a spiritual issue than a religious one. And at that, it's more of a moral issue than a spiritual one. Not many pro abortionists accept and religious argument, anyway. Why waste both your time and mine?

No. Duh. It's part of you, it's an appendage. Part of being human (if you're born healthily) is having fingers....

Go back a page or two and re- read what I already said to that. No need to recycle stale arguments, I can read.

Are you listening? Whether you jacked off or not those sperm cells were going to die. If they didn't, your scrotum would explode. I'm not expert but I'm assuming that wouldn't be pleasant.

By your "logic", every time a woman menstruate she's killing something. You and I both know that's NOT TRUE. You need a whack with the common sense book.

I get where you're coming form.... you're just not making any sense.

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Mystik

Kudos for you.. how can you say just cause a woman is raped that doesnt give her the right to have an abortion.. a rape is a very hard thing for a woman to go through and its not the womans fault if she cant have a baby from a guy who raped her.. she has every right to get an abortion.. and i am sure there are many things going through her head about the baby.. like will she have to see the face constantly of the guy who rapped her or will the child grow up to be like him.. and dont say they wont cause some do.. and when a woman is raped she isnt even thinking straight. Thats why pro life people really make me mad. They look down on women who might get an abortion and try to force their godly opinions on others. If a woman wants to get an abortion then thats her damn right. And just cause a woman gets one doesnt make her a bad person and it doesnt make her a murder. Women often do things that they regret and if they have to live day by day of what they did then it means they cared and had a concience or however you spell that damn word. Anyhow its there choice and let them live with what they done. But dont preach what you think is right..

DarkAztek

Can't compare the two? Hardly. The fetus may eventually develop into a person, but the fact of the matter is that it's not at the time. Hence why we pro-choicers say that it is comparable to bitching about other forms of potential life, such as sperm.

Right to life applies to people. Fetus != person.

No reason? Except of course for the fact that having a baby costs a ton of money (the pre-natal check ups, lamaze lessons, doctor visits, staying in a hospital, etc). Remember that the majority of abortions occur because of financial reasons, meaning that the women are too poor to support a child. Also, let's not forget the massive physical and emotional stress that a woman has to go through for nine months. Then, of course, there's the huge amount of social stigma for unwed mothers (if you don't believe that this exists, then you need to take a little trip south of the Mason-Dixon line). Or hey, there's always the women that were raped.

Yeah.

Yay for a morality that is overwhelmingly defined by visceral reactions!

Where do you draw the line? What makes an undifferentiated clump of cells more worthy of life than a fully conscious adult? I'd have to say that historically, most of the actual objection has been by the religious, picketed with "THOU SHALT NOT KILL" instead of "First Degree Murder is punishable by so and so." I may be making an inference here, but I think it's warranted.

See rosaries v. ovaries.


Seriously, people. If you want to do the whole "it's a human life" thing, then get with the program. That's a religious issue because science does not define when a zygote == a child.

Adoption?

http://nccanch.acf.hhs.gov/pubs/factsheets/foster.cfm

More people go into the foster care system than leave it every year. Do you think the places that take care of these kids are swimming in money? What do you think conditions are like? How much funding, or even tax credits, do you think the whole adoption infrastructure gets from your limited government? I'll give you a hint. It starts with "N" and ends with "ot nearly enough."

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Cookie_Monster

well, im pregnant right now, and i dont plan on haveing any abortions, and heres two reasons.
1: even though its unborn, its my baby, and i have that "motherly" connection to him already.
2: babies have a heartbeat very early in develpment, and killing that baby is the same as killing any other being that has a heart beat.

think of it as this, if your all gung-ho for abortion, just think what today would be like if your mother decided you wernt a being and werent worth keepin in her uterus disfiguring her body. we wouldnt be debating with you, and thats a very depressig thought...sorta

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dfacto

Hmm, so much for real life. Where was I now?

I don't think I did. You stated "46 chromosomes" quite clearly as your criteria, and you're backtracking on it already.


Representing what exactly? A nonbreathing, nonthinking extension of a woman, the sole worth of which is a potential future as a human? 8 cells does not a baby make, and neither does a peanut sized embryo. And until a fetus reaches a stage where it's potential is imminently close to being reality, you're not representing anything. You're working against a sentient human's wishes for the sake of your own moral standpoint, not on the "child's" behalf.

No, it is not an opinion, it is a scenario. One which you discount as unimportant.

That is an opinion. One which you cannot simply claim to be true for the simple fact that you are not in the position to speak for rape victims. Even if it's happened to you, your opinions and experiences are not automatically applicable to everyone else.

That is, in effect, the problem with your stance, and the stance of the majority of the pro-life movement. You take it upon yourself to speak out for everyone, and to impress your stance upon everyone, without letting those people decide for themselves whether they can or cannot get an abortion in accordance to the circumstances and their own feelings on the matter.

Or Hitler, Stalin, or Pol Pot. The future of an embryo does not have any bearing on this discussion, because barring a belief in fate, it's a complete wildcard. And a belief in fate has no place in an argument.

Yes, it is distasteful, which is exactly the point. To those who value personal choice and basic freedoms, the pro-lifer's penchant for playing down the negatives to the woman, even in extreme cases, is distasteful at best, and downright intellectual poison most of the time. It spits in the face of reason, honest discussion, and is just a tactic to mitigate the effects of a powerful argument on their stance.

It's also a slippery slope argument that can be applied to other personal freedoms.

That doesn't mean we have to go out of our way to make it hard just because.

I plan on having children, and I plan on having them with someone of sufficient intellect and humor to be able to openly admit when there's a non-sentient, non-viable sack of meat in her. Odds are she'd just get hormonal on me though. :P

Depending on the person it could destroy their life, in a matter of speaking of course. Either way, a potential fall from a place of education and financial security for an unwanted child is hardly justifiable. Going into pseudoscience or an appeal to emotion is the only way to argue it, but that's not really a sound stance.

You are not every woman, and that realization should basically be the end of the argument. You cannot speak for all, and as such your opinions on the matter do not constitute any form of evidence that can be used to justify banning a personal freedom.

How many women would that be? What country/culture? What circumstances? Do they regret it, or do they simply state that it was not a simple process to cope with? Did they have it for reasons relating to need or personal preference? Could it be that your talks do not encompass the entirety of womankind, or that your perception of opinion is colored by your bias?

I've heard enough positive stories to know that it isn't all crying weepy "oh I'm so sorry for killing my baby" stuff. Some women regret it, some don't. My mom had an abortion before I was born, she didn't regret it.

Wishful thinking. There are orphans rolling around in every country, and more all the time. You think every orphanage is a happy fun center of love and compassion? You think every kid is wanted? You think it's going to get better without reducing the number of orphans? You think maybe abortion can do that?

You think every mother wants her kids? You think every father wants his kids? You think abusive and neglectful relationships are a sign of love or what? As you said, life is hard, so lets not pretend that there's a ticker-tape parade when you're born. Sometimes a baby comes into the world as a detestable thing, and the baby pays for it the most. Bringing life into the world just so it can suffer is unjust in comparison to terminating it before suffering is something it can rationalize, let alone feel on any level.


Mostly because I have yet to meet a pro-lifer who isn't in it out of religious purposes. And spirituality and religion are both on the same page here. The supernatural and spiritual is put ahead of the reality.

Well it's not as if we're advocating mandatory abortions or anything. When you want to carry a baby to term then that's a wonderful thing. Good for you, and good luck.

Just imagine what today would be like if I had been aborted... Birds singing, world peace, no income tax, a chicken in every pot and a car in every garage...

Eh, it would honestly have spared me a lot of minor annoyances. :P

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Yamato-sama

I don't think anyone should tell people what to do. But don't you think that if you became pregnant, either by means of an accident or rape or whatever, that it would be right to carry out the birth? The child, since conception, has become a life in the womb. Go through with carrying the baby, and then have a c-section if you don't want to go though pain. If afterward you don't want to have a child ever, or not yet, then give it up for adoption. Abortion IS murder weather you think so or not. The life cycle of the child has started the moment of fertilization. Sorry buddy. I just don't fully agree with you on this one.

Soy Sauce is for America

Abortion is evil.
Watch this if you don't belive me.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=THS2zZ4m260

Mystik

then thats your personal choice and good for you and but no one has the right to force that opinion on anyone else.. and a baby doesnt have a heart beat until clear around the 12 and 13 month


you know what you are so lucky that it didnt show part two of that video

ThyMaiden

I'm personally agaisnt abortion but, sometimes u have to think whats best for the baby. If is going to b born in a family that doesnt want him and is going to suffer a lot in life. It may be better that it just doesnt born. Of course I'm just saying this in case if is going to have a terrible and miserable life.

Evil-Tsunade

I'm 50/50 with it. It wont bother me until I come ot that moment in life where I get a girl pregnant, so I do think of it sometimes

It is a shame however to take a life, despite how premature and unfinished it may be and kill it off. Well as on the other hand, it's these under age arses that are getting themselves pregnant and not wanting to take responsibility for the mess they put themselves in.

Meteorain27

What I'm seeing is that Pro-lifers are forcing their morality onto others. You are FORCING someone with an unwanted baby to keep it, and at the very least go through the pain of pregnancy, the stigma of being an unwed mother, and the financial problems of keeping the baby/emotional problems of putting it up for adoption. Yes, they can put the baby up for adoption, where it will undoubtedly postpone the adoption of another child, perhaps shunting another child out of a loving family.

I hate inflammatory remarks, but I'll say one right now:

PRO-LIFE IS CRUELTY

Yes, an aborted child may have grown up to be Gandhi, but he also might have grown up to be a druggy/murderer/drunk, etc. No use talking about possibilities.