hakushiro

How do you guys suppose the concept of abortion being "wrong" came about? Did people just up and say,
"Abortion is wrong"?
Did they just suddenly see it as "wrong" out of whim?
I think the concept of abortion being "wrong" is as old as the concept itself, because being human, we have a natural concept of what is right and wrong. I mean, I don't think we need religious dogma to ascertain that murder is wrong. It just is... Of course maybe in the course of history, someone will suddenly stand up and say,
"Hey, let's kill all these useless sons-of-bitches who're taking up our space because they're just using up oxygen and resources. We can't be wrong since we're putting into consideration the greater good of the "better" end of the human population, can't we? And besides, we'd be solving over-population. Yeah, let's burn them all and turn them into buttons and soap so they'd at least be useful."

The concept of right and wrong is not a question of morality, neither did it spring from religious dogma.
The ability to discern right from wrong is an innate ability that a being with an advanced thinking capability is equipped with.
No matter how many times we say that we are only putting a "more sentient" being's well-being on top priority does not negate the fact that it is murder.

Say, in the near future where over-population has become such problem that living spaces are scarce, it would only be rational that a "less-useful" human be thrown out of his spaces to make way for a "more useful" human, and in that time, the "less useless" would have to be "disposed of" properly to make sure he doesn't use up any more precious air.
It would only be logical.
But its being logical would not negate the fact that a man was murdered.

Okay, so maybe you'd say that, of course it's wrong--that was a fully-formed, sentient human being you killed, ass-hole.
But then, would an incomplete, genetically-defective person be any less human than you are? Are you "more human" just because your features are that of a "complete, normal human"?

And what's life, anyway?
Biology would say that a living organism is something that:
1. has metabolism.
2. responds to external stimuli.
3. is capable of reproduction.

1. A fertilized egg is not merely something that has a potential of life. It is alive. The moment an ovum is fertilized it suddenly comes to life because it suddenly gains metabolism. The cells begin to divide.
2. Though not notable in the early stage of a zygote (due mainly to lack of observable indications), it IS respondent to external stimuli. Okay, so you say "Then that's the very moment we take it out, while it's still incapable of response. It would'nt know it was being taken out, in the first place." Right. So let's kill all the blind inutiles of the world. With a gun, so they wouldn't have any time at all to realize that they were being taken out.
3. The life form that will spring forth from this clump of cells will be capable or reproduction.

So, no matter how "less sentient" a fetus in any stage of its development is, abortion is still an active, unnatural termination of life. Human life, more specifically. So it IS murder.

Frankly, the video link to youtube (the one with 5 parts) is very appalling. I totally lost my appetite for the cibo I was gnawing on.
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Of course, this issue is a very difficult one, since there are two life forms, and the propagation of the well-being of one will mean the neglect of the other.

Good thing there's a good common ground, because the two beings in question are human beings, they are capable of the emotion called "love" and "affection". Plus, the natural law of life evinces the existence of a so-called "maternal instinct" to be directed towards younglings. Ever seen pictures of a tiger nursing piglets and vice-versa (pig letting tiglets [baby tigers?] suckle from her)? Or that one of a full-grown gorilla letting a kitty crawl all over?
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I think the reason why a raped girl will only feel that the pregnancy will ruin her life is because she is not prepared for it. She will believe that she is coming to the end of her life and become threatened by the child in her womb because having a child is another huge stage of life, one that is best prepared for.
But then aborting the child will not erase nor ease the trauma of the rape-- it will even put her under greater stress... any "morally intact" human would feel guilt at the thought of being accomplice to a murder. I am not a girl, so I cannot and never will fully understand, but still I am able to empathize... with both sides.
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I cannot imagine how a man could walk through his life smiling whilst believing that the people he sees around him are nothing more than mere lumps of cells whose extermination will only mean the well-being of others.

Only one as deranged as Hitler could.

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Mashed Potato

I agree (and most humans) agree that something is wrong when a living/thinking/feeling being is harmed. That type of morality is hardwired into our brains - That part of the morality is objective. I personally do not think abortion is a part of that objective morality, probably because I don't count a 1st/2nd trimester fetus to be a living/thinking/feeling organism.

I also think that if your id is heavily conditioned [by parental or societal influences] into believing that say, torturing a rabbit is right, then you will have no qualms about torturing a rabbit.

We don't all sound that evil Stop trying to demonise our words. I truly think there are a lot of benefits to abortion (such as the ones you mentioned), and also it would help stem cell research.
The benefits to criminalising abortion you ask? Supressed rights. Unsafe backalley abortions/coathanger abortions. Mothers of rape condemned to a life of caring for an unwanted baby. Mmm delicious~


That is true - only if you believe in complete objective morality, you know? Which I truly do not. And depends on your definition of murder. If it is " To kill (another human) unlawfully" then prove the fetus is a human. If it is "To put an end to; destroy" then we are all murderers x\


I do not think it's murder. You have not yet solidly proved that it is murder. So I shall not regard it as so.



Seriously wtf a freaken stick of celery is considered life! You should not be arguing that unless you were a fruitarian. >_>


Arguable =/


Yes but I doubt it would be capable of feeling pain in it's 1st trimester, as it has not yet developed a brain/central nervous system/pain receptors.

We have not yet come to the conclusion that a fetus is technically human =/

Link pl0x




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Of course, this issue is a very difficult one, since there are two life forms, and the propagation of the well-being of one will mean the neglect of the other.

Good thing there's a good common ground, because the two beings in question are human beings, they are capable of the emotion called "love" and "affection". Plus, the natural law of life evinces the existence of a so-called "maternal instinct" to be directed towards younglings. Ever seen pictures of a tiger nursing piglets and vice-versa (pig letting tiglets [baby tigers?] suckle from her)? Or that one of a full-grown gorilla letting a kitty crawl all over?
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You are not one to talk, since you a neither a girl nor a rape victim =/


But it will give her a great sense of relief


arguable

Speak for yourself, I have no problems about aborting a baby.

NO! We do NOT think that at all! Just because we think that a young fetus is a lump of cells [with the same consciousness as a carrot] does not mean we think that about every human being ever to exist! A full grown human is very different to an underdeveloped fetus~!

Oh come on, what?! xD Haven't you heard that you automatically lose the argument when you compare your opponant to hitler? XD



I assume you're a male, so I shall ask you a personal question: If your wife was pregnant and she did not want to give birth (because of financial issues) would you force her to go ahead anyways?

What gives you the right to force a woman into 9 months of gestation anyway? -.-

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saxman66

abortion is murder. how would you feel if you were the baby that was cut into a million pieces before you are born.

Mystik

actually your wrong abortion isnt murder.. if that was the case it would be against the law and if you had it done you will go to jail and serve a life sentence.. so its not murder get your damn facts straight

Mashed Potato

Firstly you have no fucking idea how abortions are done arghghgh! o__-

They are certainly not "cut into a million pieces". The modus operandi varies depending on how long you've been pregnant - 1st trimester fetuses are primarily aborted with suction tubes, 2nd trimester uses thin rods to scoop the fetus out. I do not compeletly support 3rd-trimester partial birth abortions though =\

edit: this was directed towards saxman66

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saxman66

Just because the law says it is okay, it doesn't mean it is morally okay.

saxman66

The bible sayas that tyou shouldn't abort and mosty mopthers regret aborting their child for the rest of their lives so it proves that it isn't good for either parites.

Mystik

yeah and the bible says a lot of things that we shouldnt do but yet we still do it.. and you have no clue whats good for both parties.. and yeah mothers may regret but eventually they get over it.. but saying its murder is wrong but i dont expect anything less form people who are against abortion to make those who are for it feel bad.. or let me rephrase try to make us feel bad..

saxman66

I may not be a mother but I know several mothers that have aborted their kids and have regreted it for 20 years or more and still fo to this day, so don't say that i don't know what i am talking about. i have been in several debates about abortion and my opponent still ahs not been able to persuade me that abortion is right.

hakushiro

@ Mashed Potato: Please don't just quote me and say, "Arguable". ARGUE, for goodness' sake! This is a debate.What to you is murder, then?
Is it not the active, tactical termination of human life by another human being?
D@mm!t, man. Read between the lines. It is not customary for the culture from whence I come to state the obvious. We don't go "First of all, you take an iron pan..." when asked how to make an omelette. So I will not go "defining" things that I have otherwise defined in my own round-about manner. Certain things need not be said. Ils vont sans dire.1. Saying " To kill (another human) unlawfully" is redundant.
2. "And [it] depends on your definition of murder." Would you define it any differently?
3. "...then prove the fetus is a human." ---> The fetus is a defined living, developing organism with human genes... therefore, it is a puppy.
4. "If it is "To put an end to; [to] destroy"" is an incomplete definition of murder, therefore I shall ignore it. {Put an end to what? Destroy what? Evidently, one cannot "murder" concrete wall.}
1. Duh. Human life. Terminate it. Murder. Duh. The zig wasn't like, put in cryogenic suspended animation or something. Duh.

1. THEN ARGUE, CHICO. ES UN DEBATE.

1. I used the definition to argue that a fetus in any stage is alive.
2. And yes, a celery stick is alive.
3. And no, I am not a "fruitarian". Seriously, dude, harvesting veggies is nowhere near murder.

1. So does that make it any less human than you? Just because it is yet to develop a complex nervous system capable of recognizing pain? Answer me.

1. WHAT?! QUOI?!! QUE?!! CHE?!! Are you daft? Did I waste precious time trying to establish that a fetus is a living, human organism?

1. One word: Empathy.


1. Oh? Then why do they get depressed and guilty afterwards? In [places] where abortion is legal, stress counseling is part of the "abortion programme". Why, then?

1. Argue, then. ARGUE!!!

1. :/

1. "Just because we think that a young fetus is a lump of cells [with the same consciousness as a carrot] does not mean we think that about every human being ever to exist!" What say you, then, if I knock you unconscious, i.e. give you the same consciousness as a carrot's, then eviscerate you. That'd wouldn't have been murder, then, could it? Afterall, it was just a huge carrot shaped like a human I diced, no?
2. " A full grown human is very different to an underdeveloped fetus" Operative word: Underdeveloped.
3. "underdeveloped fetus" is redundant. A fetus is a developing human. >> "Underdeveloped developing human"?

1. No. Enlighten me. Argue why.

1. She's my wife. I would not need to force her. I would only implore her.
2. In this case, it's no longer a personal choice. It's one we'll take together. She's my wife see?
3. Come up with another question, one that'd make sense.



Overall, I was under the impression that I was discoursing with intelligent humans (this is after all, an "intelligent" debate), with whom I do not have to state the obvious.


1. If one has read this debate thread from page one, then maybe one already has a "fucking idea" of how abortions are done: Brutally.

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hakushiro

The bible is a thousand-year-old text. That makes it all the more credible.
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@ Mystik:
1. The bible also says that God gave us free will. That's why Adam and Eve where cast out of Eden, because they were given a choice and the ability to choose. Apparently, they chose wrong...
2. We're not trying to make you feel bad. Neither are we trying to persuade you. We're just trying to make you see the other side of this fence.
3. What would you say murder is, then? Is it not the active termination of human life? I believe I have established that a fetus is human, so there...

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Finally, Abortion is just about as "morally right" as Suicide.
It's a personal choice, and a selfish one at that. We know it doesn't solve anything and neither does it cause any problems, and we have no right to stop them, either.
But you see, there's a reason why only those depressed, psychologically unstable people resort to suicide. (Figure it out)

We may say the same for abortion.
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(Dear Mr. Admin-moderator-guy Sir; Forgive the double post. Take it as one post that couldn't fit in one box... please? ^_^)

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Miburo

First off, /tiphat to Mashed. Good stuff.

@Kakushiro-Would you consider amputating a human finger murder? After all, it's living and shit. The cells inside it are human, respond to stimuli, and are alive by your biological definition. Therefore it must be murder, right? Of course not. It's just a lump of flesh that happens to contain human DNA. You know, the same exact thing a fetus is during the early part of a pregnancy.

Now you might say "Oh, but it's a potential human" or something, right? So what? So is my man-juice, and so is a chick's eggs. Does that mean every time I bust a nut into a condom or every month when a girl has her period it's murder? It's a potential human life (Or in a dude's case, millions of potential lives) after all. Again, of course not. Potential life isn't life.

Fact is, a fetus is just a lump of flesh leeching off a woman at that stage of development. It'd be much more accurate to compare it to amputating a finger than it would be to compare it to murder. (It's also a unique case where all it's biological functions rely on a human being's body. One that's actually alive, to boot. So comparing it to someone in a coma or blind-whatever-it-was-that-you-said make for poor comparisons.)Sugarcoat it all you want, but that's what it is. Now if you're personally uncomfortable with the idea of abortions, then just don't get a fucking abortion. Easy shit, no? Don't try saying that it is wrong for everyone though. Because, really, it's not.

Edit: Also, please, don't bring The Bible into this shit. It's got no place in this debate, and only serves to weaken your argument. For example, the age of some book doesn't mean shit about it's credibility. Don't be silly, dude.

lovely angel

well abortion isnt wrong but you will kill the baby that hasnt even saw the life and its not a good thing to abort the baby just give it to an orphanage so you wont feel guilty when you will get older atleast you will know that your baby is a live and not live with a sin that cant be changed.

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saxman66

how would you feel if you were aborted.

DarkAztek

Hm, well as of right now we're at a bit of a fork in the road. See, there is no real time that we know a fetus is "life." Yeah, it is living cells before conception even begins... But as it has been pointed out, so is an apple on a tree. We can tell when the heart starts beating and when electric impulses start in the brain, which are two common pointers in when life begins to a lot of people. Others say it is at conception. According to the government, however, it is not a person until it is actually born.

So here's the compromise that is already in effect: Allow abortion to be legal. If you don't think it is right, then you don't have to get one. Encourage people to have their kids. Great. Keep on protesting and harassing others all you like. ...But if a woman DOES want to have one then she should be allowed to get one. Simple as that.

Logical fallacy. You sure do LOVE them, don't you?

I'll use a similar one on you. Wouldn't the world be a better place if Stalin had been aborted? What about Charlie Manson? Do you understand what I'm getting at?

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