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Old 01-19-2008, 01:58 AM   #121
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Re: Abortion

Still wouldnt bring myself to abortion though. The most I would do is asking family for help but not killing off the child completely.
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Old 01-19-2008, 02:11 AM   #122
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Re: Abortion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nash View Post
Still wouldnt bring myself to abortion though. The most I would do is asking family for help but not killing off the child completely.
lawl as opposed to killing off your child in parts?

Only joking though. Which question were you answering?
this one
Would you abort your child if it was discovered that s/he had mental retardation? Why, why not? What do you think of the people who abort for that said reason?
or the one prior to that?
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Old 01-19-2008, 02:36 AM   #123
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Re: Abortion

To both. I wouldnt kill him off regardless. I was born with Epilepsy. There is always a way to overcome it, even if it means 13 years of special ed like me.
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Old 01-22-2008, 03:42 AM   #124
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Re: Abortion

I hope hakushiro reads this, even though it is a week late. o_-

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hakushiro
Mashed Potato: Please don't just quote me and say, "Arguable". ARGUE, for goodness' sake! This is a debate.
When I say “arguable”, I actually mean “Your statement is irrationally opinion-based, without support of solid evidence, and therefore cannot be taken into account as a basis to your argument”. Savvy?


Quote:
Originally Posted by hakushiro
What to you is murder, then?
As I have stated before, murder is the killing of a living/thinking/feeling organism. This applies to the categories of humans & animals, and not to vegetables, fruits, nuts & fungi [and to me personally, fetuses]. You’ve never heard of someone proclaiming “my dear god you’ve murdered that carrot!” have you?
If so you should cease interaction with that said character. x]


Quote:
Originally Posted by hakishuro
Is it not the active, tactical termination of human life by another human being?
D@mm!t, man. Read between the lines. It is not customary for the culture from whence I come to state the obvious. We don't go "First of all, you take an iron pan..." when asked how to make an omelette. So I will not go "defining" things that I have otherwise defined in my own round-about manner. Certain things need not be said. Ils vont sans dire.
I personally think definitions are rather significant to the argument at hand~! Each to their own, eh?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hakushiro
1. Saying " To kill (another human) unlawfully" is redundant.
Really? I could not spot a redundancy AT ALL. =\ would you care to point it out?

Now if I it said “It’s illegal to kill (another human) unlawfully” then that is redundant.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hakushiro
2. "And [it] depends on your definition of murder." Would you define it any differently?
3. "...then prove the fetus is a human." ---> The fetus is a defined living, developing organism with human genes... therefore, it is a puppy.
Leave the puppy out of this. This is a debate between us, not chi-chi! ;_;


Quote:
Originally Posted by hakushiro
4. "If it is "To put an end to; [to] destroy"" is an incomplete definition of murder, therefore I shall ignore it. {Put an end to what? Destroy what? Evidently, one cannot "murder" concrete wall.}
That definition is from the dictionary, maybe it was referring to personification terms.


Quote:
1. I used the definition to argue that a fetus in any stage is alive.
2. And yes, a celery stick is alive.
3. And no, I am not a "fruitarian". Seriously, dude, harvesting veggies is nowhere near murder.
That’s what I’m saying, who the fuck cares if you prove a fetus is alive, so is a vegetable! You have to prove why it is immoral to kill a fetus! Simply stating or proving that it is living does not constitute it to be full-blown murder! You’re forgetting the other factors: such as whether a fetus even has the consciousness to be aware of its surroundings, to realize the very concept of pain, to display feelings of fear and fright!


Quote:
Originally Posted by hakushiro
1. So does that make it any less human than you? Just because it is yet to develop a complex nervous system capable of recognizing pain? Answer me.
Lol, honestly, yes. I value the life of a child over a fetus.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hakushiro
1. WHAT?! QUOI?!! QUE?!! CHE?!! Are you daft? Did I waste precious time trying to establish that a fetus is a living, human organism?
Belittling me does not strengthen your argument in any way. It does quite the contrary, actually .


Just in case your brain somehow subconsciously decided to ignore my previous statements, let me say that proving a fetus is alive does not mean any fucking thing. We all know it’s alive =)


Quote:
Originally Posted by hakushiro
1. One word: Empathy.
It sounds to me you empathise a fetus more than a raped mother.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hakishuro
1. Oh? Then why do they get depressed and guilty afterwards? In [places] where abortion is legal, stress counseling is part of the "abortion programme". Why, then?
Oh come on, I fully comprehend that people would naturally feel guilty after aborting something they have been attached to. And honestly I think society partakes in a lot of these guilt trips - pressuring a significant amount of guilt upon these mothers, placing social stigma upon her, calling her a murderer and other despicable names. Which you did in your previous post. For shame.

Btw, ever heard of postpartum depression? It’s when the mother falls into deep depression after simply giving birth to a normal baby. Yeah, the mind works in confusing ways.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hackushyrooo!!1!
1. "Just because we think that a young fetus is a lump of cells [with the same consciousness as a carrot] does not mean we think that about every human being ever to exist!" What say you, then, if I knock you unconscious, i.e. give you the same consciousness as a carrot's, then eviscerate you. That'd wouldn't have been murder, then, could it? After all, it was just a huge carrot shaped like a human I diced, no?
Failed logic, since I am hardly comparable to a fetus. I have friends whom I enjoy the company of, I am capable of independent thought and opinions, and most importantly I can feel pain. I’ve already told you that I value the life of a child over a fetus =\


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hack a shoe row
2. " A full grown human is very different to an underdeveloped fetus" Operative word: Underdeveloped.
3. "underdeveloped fetus" is redundant. A fetus is a developing human. >> "Underdeveloped developing human"?
Lol I was kind of referring to a fetus in its earlier stages, rather than a fetus 3 weeks before parturition. Mmkay?
Also I think that was a strawman, since you decided to refute something that was completely irrelevant to my argument (which was that fetuses aren’t comparable to full-grown humans).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hakushiro
Oh come on, what?! xD Haven't you heard that you automatically lose the argument when you compare your oppon[e]nt to hitler? XD
1. No. Enlighten me. Argue why.
It was sort of a joke, but… all right. No way can you compare Hitler’s atrocities to abortion. It’s almost farcical to do so. Come on dude, Nazi insults are inappropriate. ;[


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jebus
1. She's my wife. I would not need to force her. I would only implore her.
2. In this case, it's no longer a personal choice. It's one we'll take together. She's my wife see?
3. Come up with another question, one that'd make sense.
As if that question didn’t make sense! And it took me hours to think of it too! My ego… destroyed… ;___;

But honestly, you did not answer my question. I ask you again, would you force your wife out of an abortion? Answer goddamnit I’m curious!


Quote:
Originally Posted by hariusersldjgfsldhg
Overall, I was under the impression that I was discoursing with intelligent humans (this is after all, an "intelligent" debate), with whom I do not have to state the obvious.
That’s low man. Dedicating a whole paragraph to insult me. You hit my right on my heart dude, I guess abortion is an abomination after all.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hack a shoe row
1. If one has read this debate thread from page one, then maybe one already has a "fucking idea" of how abortions are done: Brutally.
Can’t be arsed to read all that,
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Old 01-22-2008, 07:50 PM   #125
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Re: Abortion

I think abortion's are just wrong.I think they are just wrong because It's takin' life.Lets say your mom had an abortion with you because of some reason you would not be here right now living your life talking on the phone with a friend, sitting here readin' this, breathing this air, having fun, or being bored and making new friends cause your bored.I hate my life and sometimes I wish I was never born cause of how my life sucks but Life Isn't Fair Enough.So I rather live life and have PAIN than never be born or dead!!

WOW!!I can't believe I just let that out.It felt cool.
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Old 01-22-2008, 08:07 PM   #126
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Re: Abortion

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Originally Posted by Sasukefan5252 View Post
I think abortion's are just wrong.I think they are just wrong because It's takin' life.Lets say your mom had an abortion with you because of some reason you would not be here right now living your life talking on the phone with a friend, sitting here readin' this, breathing this air, having fun, or being bored and making new friends cause your bored.I hate my life and sometimes I wish I was never born cause of how my life sucks but Life Isn't Fair Enough.So I rather live life and have PAIN than never be born or dead!!

WOW!!I can't believe I just let that out.It felt cool.
Do you think showering is wrong? I sure hope so, because every time you shower you're taking the lives of thousands of bacteria and single celled organisms and shit. "It's takin' life" isn't a valid reason to state that abortion is morally wrong.

And if my parents used a condom then I'd have never experienced these things either. Using birth control accomplishes the same thing as an abortion, so I guess by your logic birth control is wrong too, right? = /
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Old 01-22-2008, 08:07 PM   #127
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Re: Abortion

im not a religious person even though i do belive in a higher power. To me i belive that abortion is some thing that is completly up to a women no matter what anyone else says. Its good for her to lissen to opinions but the ultimate dession is hers to decide.
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Old 01-22-2008, 08:49 PM   #128
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Re: Abortion

I think people can come up with something better like adoption perhaps. I'm like this, if you dont want the kid, why wait til your 2-3 months into it. You know the guy came in you and you werent on the pill, just get something done about it as soon as possible. Why wait? That's the question females up for abortion should really answer, why wait so long?
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Old 01-22-2008, 09:18 PM   #129
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Re: Abortion

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Originally Posted by kenneth20748 View Post
I think people can come up with something better like adoption perhaps. I'm like this, if you dont want the kid, why wait til your 2-3 months into it. You know the guy came in you and you werent on the pill, just get something done about it as soon as possible. Why wait? That's the question females up for abortion should really answer, why wait so long?
you know i think its funny how you all bring up adoption.. do you guys even know how hard it is to adopt in america.. its very hard.. there are tons of children who are put up for adoption and never get adopted.. a lot get sent to foster homes.. those foster homes some are ok and decent.. but others aren't they abuse the kids and just do it for the money.. why do you guys think a lot of people adopt over seas.. cause its easier to get an adoption over seas then it is in the us.. the us adoption rules are highly strict.. but there are some bad people who manage to bypass the adoption rules and guess what the child is in an abusive home.. children can go through tons of foster homes before they even get adopted.. and thats if they do.. so some cases adoption can be a good option.. but its not always the best option..
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Old 01-22-2008, 09:48 PM   #130
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Re: Abortion

Quote:
I think people can come up with something better like adoption perhaps. I'm like this, if you dont want the kid, why wait til your 2-3 months into it. You know the guy came in you and you werent on the pill, just get something done about it as soon as possible. Why wait? That's the question females up for abortion should really answer, why wait so long?
Most likely because it is a hard decision to make and since some people are religious they have to take that into account.
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Old 01-22-2008, 10:02 PM   #131
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Re: Abortion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystik View Post
you know i think its funny how you all bring up adoption.. do you guys even know how hard it is to adopt in america.. its very hard.. there are tons of children who are put up for adoption and never get adopted.. a lot get sent to foster homes.. those foster homes some are ok and decent.. but others aren't they abuse the kids and just do it for the money.. why do you guys think a lot of people adopt over seas.. cause its easier to get an adoption over seas then it is in the us.. the us adoption rules are highly strict.. but there are some bad people who manage to bypass the adoption rules and guess what the child is in an abusive home.. children can go through tons of foster homes before they even get adopted.. and thats if they do.. so some cases adoption can be a good option.. but its not always the best option..
Hey, I hear what your saying and I'm not going to make an ass of myself and say there are foster parents who aren't fucked up. I agree with you 100%. I'm just saying get the abortion like a week or less after you had raw sex. Like I said, and the guy after you gave an answer, why do females wait to decide that maybe an abortion is what I should do?
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Old 01-22-2008, 10:12 PM   #132
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Re: Abortion

Uh, why does it matter?

Seriously, so long as it's done within the time frame to legally have an abortion, it doesn't mean shit. Where you going with that one?
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Old 01-22-2008, 10:25 PM   #133
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Re: Abortion

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenneth20748 View Post
Hey, I hear what your saying and I'm not going to make an ass of myself and say there are foster parents who aren't fucked up. I agree with you 100%. I'm just saying get the abortion like a week or less after you had raw sex. Like I said, and the guy after you gave an answer, why do females wait to decide that maybe an abortion is what I should do?
because there is a 2 week period time frame when a woman can get pregnant after the last time she has had sex.. some dont know they are pregnant till 2 weeks or more after.. and as Miburo has said there is a time frame from which you can get an abortion.. most places dont even do abortions after the 12 week period.. cause after the 12th week it turns more into a baby.. its turns into a fetus.. and usually doesnt even develop a heartbeat till then... some places even do partial birth abortions but thats usually only done if something is severally wrong.. although i think this one state legalized it period.. now that i am totally against.. but there is nothing wrong with it in the first stage.. and like people has said.. its a woman's body and a woman's choice.. a woman shouldnt be forced to keep something she doesnt really want.. and don't say thats what condoms and birth control pills are for cause that doesnt always work..
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Old 01-23-2008, 05:03 AM   #134
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Re: Abortion

Quote:
^You're ignoring the fact that:

Sperm = potential life
fetus = potential life

Where do you draw the line, hakushiro? And why?

1. I think I differentiated that. Read previous posts.

Quote:
Quote:
2. I don't suppose your sperm cells have been humping each other and producing off spring sperm cells, huh? o_O
What the fuck, fetuses don't do that either! What are you getting at?
1. Neither can 3 year-old children, but leave them long enough and you'll see.

Quote:
Stop calling it a human life please =/ You tried to prove that a fetus was living with your smarmy biology definitions, but then again we all know that fetuses are alive! Now you have to prove why a fetus is human =/ Also you seem to place a baby in the womb on the same [pedestal] as a small child.
1. Yes I do.
2. What do you call a living organism with human genes? A dog?

Quote:
You have grossly ignored the fact that fetuses are incapable of feeling pain, independent thought, etc. By definition they are a parasite, living and feeding off its host. Mmmm =D
1. Ouch. There's this genetic defect that disables pain receptors in a human body. Would it be okay, then, to hurt this person just because he won't feel it?
2. Yes, fetuses are parasitical in nature, I should agree. So are we.

Quote:
abortions would only be comparable to suicide IF you placed equal value on both fetus and a fully developed human being. Which I don't.
1. Well, I do. I wish I've made it clear why from my previous posts. Chacun a son gout.

Quote:
You seem to be swapping sides. Do you think abortion should be illegal or not?
1. Weh. Should suicide be illegal or not?

Quote:
Hahaha what?!??! The bible is questioned and has always been throughout history! The only reason it hasn't been baleeeeeted from the world is because atheism is a minority.
1. Precisely.

Quote:
If you want a theist debate then go to the thread "proof that god does not exist"
1. No, I'd rather not, that argument is moot. Just as this argument is.

Quote:
(Note: Cellular division is how cells reproduce. So if you want to get technical then the cells in a finger are alive, and amputating a finger would kill living human cells. I thought that perhaps you were trying to claim that killing living human cells should be murder (since that's all a fetus is at that stage of developement, a clump of living human cells), but that doesn't matter now since you're now clearly talking about being able to sexually reproduce. Thanks for clarifying your definition to make my job easier.)
1. Again, no. You're not being technical, you're being silly. Murder is the killing of a living human organism, not cells. If you compare a human being to nothing more than a lump of cells, then you have found a justification for your murder.
2. Ah, okay. You have found your justification.

Quote:
An egg cell has the same amount of the girl's DNA as a fetus does. And my sperm only has half the amount of my DNA as any other cell in my body. I wouldn't call that the same. Also, a fetus cannot biologically function without being attached to the woman, meaning it's also an attachment to her at that stage.
1. It's not an attachment because it's got its own gene code.

Quote:
2. Life being the key word. Potential life isn't life though. So no, it's not murder.
1. Egg cells and sperm cells are potential life. Fetuses are not. Read back to see why.

Quote:
That’s what I’m saying, who the fuck cares if you prove a fetus is alive, so is a vegetable!
1. Narrow down. It's not a veggie 'cuz it's got human genes. Living organism + Human gene = Ningen.

Quote:
...such as whether a fetus even has the consciousness to be aware of its surroundings, to realize the very concept of pain, to display feelings of fear and fright!
1. It does.

Quote:
It sounds to me you empathise a fetus more than a raped mother.
1. Sure.

@ Dark Aztec: Finally, Abortion is as morally right as Suicide, not pulling the plug on a person in a coma because 1. It is self afflicted. 2. Uhhh... I'd state more but I'm not in the mood right now. T_T
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Old 01-23-2008, 05:38 AM   #135
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Re: Abortion

Quote:
1. Ouch. There's this genetic defect that disables pain receptors in a human body. Would it be okay, then, to hurt this person just because he won't feel it?
Fetus in early stages:
- cannot feel pain
- no experience of outside world
- no memories of anything
- basically unconscious
- legally and biologically not a complete human being
- blank slate

Man with genetic defect:
- cannot feel pain
- has had experiences, has emotions, will feel hurt if someone tries to injure him
- many memories of holiday gatherings, outings with friends
- legally and biologically a fully-developed human being
- conscious of things around him

cannot compare, since they only have one thing in common


Quote:
Originally Posted by hack
2. Yes, fetuses are parasitical in nature, I should agree. So are we.
Explain pl0x, personally I don't latch onto unsuspecting victims and feed off their juices, but okay...


Quote:
1. Weh. Should suicide be illegal or not?
duuuuuuude! suicide's legality is redundant! If I committed suicide what do you think cops would do? Arrest and incarcerate my corpse?

Maybe you're really asking "should attempted suicide be legal or not?" of course not =/ if we enforce that kind of rule, then any self-inflicted injury should be punishable too, and that's absurd =/


Quote:
Originally Posted by hackkkk
...such as whether a fetus even has the consciousness to be aware of its surroundings, to realize the very concept of pain, to display feelings of fear and fright!
I'm interested, go on


Quote:
It sounds to me you empathise a fetus more than a raped mother.
1. Sure.
That sort of scares me =\
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