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Old 12-06-2007, 03:31 AM   #46
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Re: Proof that god does not exist.

An infinitely feeble-minded argument you have there, Beikoku Rikujun.
You are speaking of an infinitely potent being who is said to be the creator of ALL. Why do you then restrict him within the finite walls of physics?
Yah, your knowledge of basic physics awes us all, but then your narrow propositions demean you.
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Old 12-06-2007, 04:39 PM   #47
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Re: Proof that god does not exist.

I've said if people would just read the bible, they would see the truth in it. If read, it predicts todays technology, and was written about 2,000 years ago. The tablets that the bible was originally written on was tested the same as bones, or a similar process, *sediment testing* and was proven to be that old. Just wanted to say that. Ghosts/ spirits do exist. There may be no solid proof but you would swear it existed it you have seen abnormalititys yourself. Thats all I have to say. And in regards to the first post: Get real dude. Thats not proof at all.
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Old 12-06-2007, 06:38 PM   #48
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Re: Proof that god does not exist.

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Originally Posted by Yamato-sama View Post
I've said if people would just read the bible, they would see the truth in it.
Like the creation story? Noah's ark? I don't know what you're referring to here, but you've got to admit that there's a lot of bullshit stories as well.

In before someone says they were meant to be analogies or weren't meant to be taken literally. What lesson do you learn from the seven day story of creation? What were they going for with that if they weren't trying to make a serious attempt at explaining how things came to be? Kind of puts a damper on the whole 'infallible word of God' thing when there's errors in there, you know?
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Old 12-06-2007, 07:09 PM   #49
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Re: Proof that god does not exist.

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Originally Posted by Miburo View Post
Don't get me started on how ridiculous it is to sentence people to an eternity of suffering merely because they chose to be logical in life.

What about people who are already Christians, yet still get terminal illnesses? Kind of puts a kink in that reasoning (Which wasn't that great of reasoning in the first place: "He makes people suffer so they...er, become closer to god, so they can then go to heaven...despite the fact that god made those rules. So there's no reason he can't change them to something that doesn't make the suffering of billions of people a necessity...yet doesn't."). Since they're already close to god.
Let me ask you, what is the true definition of being "logical in life." Well based on my findings it tends to differ from person to person. Therefore God does not sentence one to eternal punishment because they choose to be "logical in life."

Secondly you don't understand Christianity enough if you believe that the only reward is eternal life. On earth I always have someone to talk to and I always have someone to lean on. I can always share my interests with God and he wants to listen. My Christianity has made my whole life better in every aspect.

Quote:
Also, I hear the "he tests your faith" excuse to the whole letting-people-suffer thing. To counter that, I ask if God is such a perfect being, why does he need to test us? The purpose of giving tests is to review a result. Wouldn't God already know any results of a test he may give to humans, since he's so perfect?
Yeah don't listen to those people. They probably don't read their Bible that much or they just read it with a huge bias.

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If I had a cure for every terminal illness in the world, but didn't give it out to anyone because I felt that Earth should have suffering, sadness, and death in it and only heaven should be terminal illness-free; wouldn't that be a pretty dickish thing of me to do? Seriously, wouldn't that make me quite the asshole?
He gives it out to some people. I mean seriously, prove he hasn't given it to anyone?

Quote:
I've said if people would just read the bible, they would see the truth in it. If read, it predicts todays technology, and was written about 2,000 years ago. The tablets that the bible was originally written on was tested the same as bones, or a similar process, *sediment testing* and was proven to be that old. Just wanted to say that. Ghosts/ spirits do exist. There may be no solid proof but you would swear it existed it you have seen abnormalititys yourself. Thats all I have to say. And in regards to the first post: Get real dude. Thats not proof at all.
There is no proof to back up God, whether the facts are wrong or right in the Bible.

Quote:
Like the creation story? Noah's ark? I don't know what you're referring to here, but you've got to admit that there's a lot of bullshit stories as well.

In before someone says they were meant to be analogies or weren't meant to be taken literally. What lesson do you learn from the seven day story of creation? What were they going for with that if they weren't trying to make a serious attempt at explaining how things came to be? Kind of puts a damper on the whole 'infallible word of God' thing when there's errors in there, you know?
Wait how are those, "bullshit stories?"
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Old 12-06-2007, 07:54 PM   #50
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Re: Proof that god does not exist.

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Originally Posted by Redneckboy View Post
Let me ask you, what is the true definition of being "logical in life." Well based on my findings it tends to differ from person to person. Therefore God does not sentence one to eternal punishment because they choose to be "logical in life."
Logic is universal. The knowledge of logic isn't. Someone can have different logic compared to another because people don't have an equal understanding of logic. It's kind of like mathematics. If I, say, solve an equation, my answer could differ from someone elses. The only reason it will be different is because either I did my math wrong and the other guy is right, vice versa, or if we both did it wrong, but in different ways. The same happens with logic.

So, this leads one to think that people who are free thinkers are punished by God for attempting to think more logically. That's a pretty mean thing of God to do, isn't it? He would be almost as bad as the mods fascists.

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Originally Posted by Red
He gives it out to some people. I mean seriously, prove he hasn't given it to anyone?
The point is that he doesn't give it to most people. Why does god allow most people to suffer? Again, pretty fascist-like.

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Originally Posted by Red
Wait how are those, "bullshit stories?"
Well, most of them don't agree with science when it can be applied to them.
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Old 12-06-2007, 07:54 PM   #51
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Re: Proof that god does not exist.

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Originally Posted by Miburo View Post
If I had a cure for every terminal illness in the world, but didn't give it out to anyone because I felt that Earth should have suffering, sadness, and death in it and only heaven should be terminal illness-free; wouldn't that be a pretty dickish thing of me to do? Seriously, wouldn't that make me quite the asshole?

I'd certainly hope most would think so. Thing is, that's pretty much exactly what God does according to some of you guys.
Ah, but you fail to understand one thing. God is omnipotent, he can do anything he wants, but he chooses not to. It is beyond mortal comprehension what god thinks. We cannot possibly hope to comprehend his reasons for what he does. Perhaps he realizes what I have, that if you give out everything for free, there is no insentive for anyone to do anything for themselves. As if a baby were given every single thing he wanted, and was brought up like that. What if you then put that child out in the real world? They would be utterly helpless. If you give someone something they haven't earned, you have given them nothing.

Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, teach a man to fish, you feed him for life.
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Originally Posted by Miburo View Post
And yes, I know I ignored the original sin dealy you were talking about, MS. I don't think I need to even go into how unfair it is to treat everyone as guilty until proven innocent based solely on what our fictional ancestors did thousands of years ago. If I was arguing the 'just and merciful' angle I definitely wouldn't bring that up, that's for sure. : )
The lord gave us our free will, so we could do everything we please. Yet we use this right to pollute our planet, kill eachother, and tamper with the very earth he gave us. Why do we even deserve god's mercy?
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Old 12-06-2007, 08:05 PM   #52
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Re: Proof that god does not exist.

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Originally Posted by Ninja48 View Post
Logic is universal. The knowledge of logic isn't. Someone can have different logic compared to another because people don't have an equal understanding of logic. It's kind of like mathematics. If I, say, solve an equation, my answer could differ from someone elses. The only reason it will be different is because either I did my math wrong and the other guy is right, vice versa, or if we both did it wrong, but in different ways. The same happens with logic.
So tell me what the right logic is? Do you have proof it is the right logic?

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So, this leads one to think that people who are free thinkers are punished by God for attempting to think more logically. That's a pretty mean thing of God to do, isn't it? He would be almost as bad as the mods fascists.
How is believing in a god not logical? People that are free thinkers aren't even that open-minded. How can a loss of emotions give you a less biased input?
It can't because you are always under some sort of emotion. I try to think logically and I believe in God. Now whether I think your "true logic" or not cannot be proved, but I pursue my view of logic.

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The point is that he doesn't give it to most people. Why does god allow most people to suffer? Again, pretty fascist-like.
Even if God was a fascist, would it matter? His interests are much more important then ours, at least that is what I believe. He is able to see all things all the time so I would think his interests would be much more balanced then mine.

It really comes down to the fact that I believe God has a plan for everything. There is a good and bad to everything. There is a good to death and a bad to death.

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Well, most of them don't agree with science when it can be applied to them.
Which ones?
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Old 12-06-2007, 08:28 PM   #53
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Re: Proof that god does not exist.

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Originally Posted by Redneckboy View Post
So tell me what the right logic is? Do you have proof it is the right logic?
Logic is a science.

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How is believing in a god not logical? People that are free thinkers aren't even that open-minded. How can a loss of emotions give you a less biased input?
It can't because you are always under some sort of emotion. I try to think logically and I believe in God. Now whether I think your "true logic" or not cannot be proved, but I pursue my view of logic.
Well, logically, the idea of a God doesn't matter, since it can't be proven and it can't be disproved. Any belief (or even disbelief) in God would not be based on anything, and therefore would be illogical. It really comes down to which view of reality you find more comforting, which isn't quite logic, but philosophy.

Philosophically, I don't think a Christian God makes much sense to me. The only God that makes sense to me is a God of Order. A God that dictates the laws of physics and the universe, and does not have any effect on much of anything. A God that messes with humans (with the smiting and the plagues and the whatnot) is a God of Miracles. Why should a God mess with some beings on some planet on some solar system in some galaxy (and possibly, in some universe)?

Quote:
Even if God was a fascist, would it matter? His interests are much more important then ours, at least that is what I believe. He is able to see all things all the time so I would think his interests would be much more balanced then mine.

It really comes down to the fact that I believe God has a plan for everything. There is a good and bad to everything. There is a good to death and a bad to death.
I was kidding about the fascist thing, by the way. The "God has a plan" thing actually makes sense to me, so I respect your philosophy.

But I just find more comfort in the fact that humans control their own fate, and there isn't some dude in the sky that is judging every one of us based on a book he told some guys to write some thousand years ago.



Quote:
Which ones?
The... ones Miburo listed.

It'd be nice if someone can link me something showing the predictions and accuracies the Bible has, with another link showing all the contradictions the Bible has. Would be interesting.
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Old 12-06-2007, 08:53 PM   #54
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Re: Proof that god does not exist.

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Originally Posted by Ninja48 View Post
Logic is a science.
So name some things that we have proven using "valid inference and demonstration."


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Well, logically, the idea of a God doesn't matter, since it can't be proven and it can't be disproved. Any belief (or even disbelief) in God would not be based on anything, and therefore would be illogical. It really comes down to which view of reality you find more comforting, which isn't quite logic, but philosophy.
What can be proven? Everyone has their own reality so how can a truth be universal? We have not looked into everyone's mind to see what their reality is like.

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Philosophically, I don't think a Christian God makes much sense to me. The only God that makes sense to me is a God of Order. A God that dictates the laws of physics and the universe, and does not have any effect on much of anything. A God that messes with humans (with the smiting and the plagues and the whatnot) is a God of Miracles. Why should a God mess with some beings on some planet on some solar system in some galaxy (and possibly, in some universe)?
The Bible explains that God works with our lives because he loves us. We pray all the time, which is asking God to get involved. Though my belief on this is that God already knows what we need, but prayer is sort of a recognition of the fact that God is involved in our lives. It keeps our relationship intact.

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I was kidding about the fascist thing, by the way. The "God has a plan" thing actually makes sense to me, so I respect your philosophy.
My bad. I am also happy that my view makes sense to you.

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But I just find more comfort in the fact that humans control their own fate, and there isn't some dude in the sky that is judging every one of us based on a book he told some guys to write some thousand years ago.
I can understand that, because I feel the same way about government. I don't want a government deciding what I can and cannot do, but that is because I believe that no government has the place to say that. No government official has ever been perfect. My view on God is different because I believe God won't tell me things that I can't do just because he doesn't want me to do them. That is where my faith and trust comes in.

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The... ones Miburo listed.
Explain how they cannot be related to Science.

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It'd be nice if someone can link me something showing the predictions and accuracies the Bible has, with another link showing all the contradictions the Bible has. Would be interesting.
I'd like to read them.
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Old 12-06-2007, 09:24 PM   #55
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Re: Proof that god does not exist.

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Originally Posted by Redneckboy View Post
Let me ask you, what is the true definition of being "logical in life." Well based on my findings it tends to differ from person to person. Therefore God does not sentence one to eternal punishment because they choose to be "logical in life."
48 explained this very, very well. Logic is universal.

As for what I meant by saying 'being logical in life' I'm referring to the application of Occam's Razor to the existence of unverifiable, baseless creatures. You most likely apply this very logic to a number of things, be it five eyed invisible ogres, to space turtles with machine guns strapped to their backs, to things like pixies and gnomes. Or other gods.

Non-existence is the default stance since the concept of God didn't exist until someone made the claim of him existing. Since the claim cannot be supported in anyway, there is no reason to change the default stance. Making non-existence the preferred logical decision. This doesn't not ignore the possibility of existence, it just means that it existence shouldn't be taken into consideration until some sort of proof can be supplied. It sounds like a complex logical concept, but like I said, I'd wager everyone uses this logic during their lifetimes.

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Secondly you don't understand Christianity enough if you believe that the only reward is eternal life. On earth I always have someone to talk to and I always have someone to lean on. I can always share my interests with God and he wants to listen. My Christianity has made my whole life better in every aspect.
I'm glad to hear that your religion has enhanced your life. If it makes people feel better, then I'm all for it. All I'm saying is that it's not logical. I don't mean that in a negative way at all.
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He gives it out to some people. I mean seriously, prove he hasn't given it to anyone?
Prove that he has. The burden of proof isn't on me on this one. Besides, the fact that he has the power to end suffering for everyone, yet chooses not to, was the point. No one is going to give me any medals for saving a handful of people with my miracle cure for all diseases if it I could effortlessly have saved a shit-ton more, but chose not to. You know what I mean? Letting people suffer when one can easily save them isn't a nice thing to do no matter how you try and smear it.


Quote:
Wait how are those, "bullshit stories?"
You really think every animal to ever exist on the planet only existed one day prior to the emergence of humans? Or that two of every living non-aquatic creature on the planet someone crossed oceans to find a way to some big boat that somehow could house them all plus all the food they'd all eat for 40 days, then repopulate the earth? Come on, dude.

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Originally Posted by AnticitizenOne View Post
Ah, but you fail to understand one thing. God is omnipotent, he can do anything he wants, but he chooses not to. It is beyond mortal comprehension what god thinks. We cannot possibly hope to comprehend his reasons for what he does. Perhaps he realizes what I have, that if you give out everything for free, there is no insentive for anyone to do anything for themselves. As if a baby were given every single thing he wanted, and was brought up like that. What if you then put that child out in the real world? They would be utterly helpless. If you give someone something they haven't earned, you have given them nothing.
Actually, that was kind of the point, dude. He can do anything he wants, including ending the suffering of billions of people effortlessly, yet doesn't? If I could cure every terminal illness with complete ease, yet didn't for whatever reason, I'd be considered quite the douchebag. That's the whole point.

And please, do tell, how does letting someone die slowly from some agonizing terminal illness help/teach that person?

Also, the "humans just can't comprehend it LOL" is the biggest cop-out ever. Might as just say a wizard does it or some shit. Jeez, dude.

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The lord gave us our free will, so we could do everything we please. Yet we use this right to pollute our planet, kill eachother, and tamper with the very earth he gave us. Why do we even deserve god's mercy?
So are you saying that every single human being should be judged based on the total actions of humanity? So children born with disease aren't worthy of god's mercy because some other people litter and shit? Get the hell outta here, dude.

Last edited by Miburo; 12-06-2007 at 09:27 PM.
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Old 12-07-2007, 08:00 AM   #56
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Re: Proof that god does not exist.

i'm a christian and he exists u let them dumb ass scientists that are wasting there life tell some bull shit about how he doesn't exist!!!!!!!!!!!


[i'm tired of u people making all threads about religion]
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Old 12-07-2007, 08:41 AM   #57
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Re: Proof that god does not exist.

Compelling argument you've got going there.

And I see nothing wrong with having a rational discussion about religion. If it's not something you're personally into, then stick to something more your speed. Like playing with Legos.
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Old 12-07-2007, 11:49 AM   #58
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Re: Proof that god does not exist.

Come on Miburo, she owned you pretty good. Be a sport about it and get to prayin!

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So name some things that we have proven using "valid inference and demonstration."
Every scientific law? How do you think we got this far?

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What can be proven? Everyone has their own reality so how can a truth be universal? We have not looked into everyone's mind to see what their reality is like.
We live in a society that accepts a rough universal paradigm, and we either adhere to it or get labeled insane. Since I'm assuming you aren't insane, then you accept the world and all of the things in it as much as the next guy. This means that a huge number of things are in fact proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, at least within the paradigm we accept. Does the sun go up? Yes it does. Do we stick to the earth? Yes we do. Do atoms colliding at high speed release energy and create other atomic particles in accordance to quantum theory (or was it the Theory of relativity, or both?)? Yes they do.

Maybe we are in the Matrix, or we are the only thing that truly exists, but we have no indication that the universe is a solipsistic reality, so lets not try to argue that it is with a straight face in an attempt to win a silly argument.
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Old 12-07-2007, 08:28 PM   #59
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Re: Proof that god does not exist.

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Originally Posted by babygirl View Post
i'm a christian and he exists u let them dumb ass scientists that are wasting there life tell some bull shit about how he doesn't exist!!!!!!!!!!!


[i'm tired of u people making all threads about religion]
And ya know what? I'm not a Christian, so He doesn't exist, so you let the Pope, all the cardinals, all the priests, all the pastors, all the choir boys, and all the Christians in the entire planet that it's all a load of bullshit and that they're wasting their lives inside churches, studying "His word," and spreading their own beliefs in order to make an attempt to prove that He exists.

Basically, you think that your religion gives you the right to say "what's what," without anything to back it up. That's the equivalent to walking up to a physicist and saying, "Gravity doesn't exist because I said so" or going to a biologist and saying, "I'm not made of cells." If you're going to post in a debate topic, at least try and support your statement(s) or you'll get textually beat down by members of the opposing party.
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Old 12-07-2007, 08:49 PM   #60
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Re: Proof that god does not exist.

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Originally Posted by Miburo View Post
Compelling argument you've got going there.

And I see nothing wrong with having a rational discussion about religion. If it's not something you're personally into, then stick to something more your speed. Like playing with Legos.
Horay for thinly veiled trolling!

Seriously, nobody has a right to say weather god does or does not exist, or weather there's a heaven or a hell as a matter of fact. The only way to know these things is to be dead, and therefore there is no possible way for any living person to realize this.

Looking over the first post again, this isn't really a "God doesn't exist." argument, at best it is a "God is not omnipotent." argument. So far you've tried to prove that he couldn't create fire without a source or stop an atom at a temperature above absolute zero. However, saying so acknowledges his existance. You've buried your own argument just by saying that.

You can take religion from whatever sources you want, but if you want to believe one book over another that's fine with me. They're all just as provenly reliable, especially since nobody alive today was there. There is no proof, and there is no way to tell.

The fact that we have not seen the entire universe means we can't be sure of anything at this point, ergo we cannot say for sure that there isn't something that's neither matter nor energy out there somewhere. In fact, I have had friends in the past who have claimed sightings of ghosts, and seen documentaries on the existance of spirits. I can't say if people are wrong or right on this, but there is some chance.
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