Zetsu_Rocks

Hiraku, I see what you are saying now. Isn't hard though for people to work towards the same goals (making the world a better place to live in) if they all have different personal beliefs?

Redneckboy, I was posting to Hiraku's post. We can keep this civil.

Hiraku

and there lies the problem of hardliners that cannot accept the idea of there being diffrent ways to believe in god. So as long as people seperate themselves into groups and then into sub groups with minor diffrences in beliefs of god and religion there is no way the world is going to become a better place.

So its better to keep religion to one self and just believe what you want.

Tell the truth i dont like going to church of any kind becuase there is no room to expand its all rigid and non comforming to the modern day situation a person and society find themselves just look at islam and there problems that answer,

so its better to avoid a fight by just keeping one beliefs of god to themselves and then just be at peace with all.

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Hiraku

The Look of Innocence

RNB

Now this is what I fail to understand. What makes you come to the conclusion that we are all worshiping the same God. I am all for not shoving my views in someone's face, but I don't understand how I can be worshiping the same God as a religion that believes that their God will kill you if you don't make a human sacrifice.

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"Nature loves to be hidden."

- Heraclitus

Miburo

It's an example that shows the logical inconsistency in many people's beliefs. Most people use proper logic when dealing with unverifiable entities; they just disregard this logic when dealing with the topic of God.

Logic is used to show error in stating that God exists, not to disprove Him. Logically, one wouldn't need to disprove a statement that has not supporting evidence, after all. Also, like I said above, this logic is something that is used by pretty much everyone, religious people included. They just ignore it in this particular scenario.

He judges people based on their belief in something illogical over their merit as individuals. If I'm a morally upstanding person, but don't believe in God, I'm going to be punished after I die. Solely because I chose to be logical in life. That's pretty mean, to say the least.


What sin did Adam commit? He ate some fruit from some tree that God told him not to eat, right? Well, God never gave me any direct commands that I chose to disobey. I've never been on TV doing things deserving of punishment either. So I should be good, right? Because guilty by association isn't very fair, it's not like I can just stop being human. That's also pretty damn mean.

It's more than possible to be a good, morally upstanding person without believing in God. It's also possible that I would enjoy God's company while chilling up in heaven or whatever even though I didn't chose to believe in Him while I was alive. It's definitely possible that I'd enjoy it more than eternal damnation, that's for sure. Punishing people solely for not believing in some illogical thing is definitely pretty damn mean.

Not trying to bust your balls, dude. You're really just the only one on the side of the opposition worth responding too, if you know what I mean. : )

Mashed Potato

God does exist, proof is: I touched his noodly appendage.


Edit:
What... why is gay love any more wrong than heterolove? I certainly do not think same-sex couples are based on lust and only lust. As for pre-marital sex, I don't get how that is morally wrong in any way, not every guy partaking in such a thing is banging chicks left and right. These morals repress natural urges. Why should a man feel ashamed when he masturbates? Who decides upon these morals anyway? If God says it to be disgusting, then it is disgusting. Say if another God from another culture deemed carrot-consuming to be immoral and disgusting, followers of that God would grimace when faced with a carrot.

What I don't like about religion is that they have to make the morals for you. Is it really that hard to create your own perception of what is right and what is wrong instead of getting it from some two thousand old sacred scripture which spout claims that cannot be logically proven?

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AnticitizenOne

It may be sort of a stareotype that isn't necessarily true. While I don't believe homosexual love is anything truly horrible, I discourage it. However, I'm not a person who would kill them just for what they are. That'd sort of be a paradox, they kill them because they're against God's will, but they go against the ten commandments themselves.
Discipline is something that everyone should have. That's all it takes to avoid premarital sex. Now it's not the worst thing in the world so long as it's protected, but teenage parents are often unfit to take care of their children.
It's not the same thing. There's no reason why you shouldn't eat a carrot, it's good for you. I don't see how masturbation actually helps the person doing it.
When you are children, that's when you create your opinions and such, but it's also the time where you're impressionable and your logic is based upon flawed conceptions. Guidance is something that God gives you when you are a child.

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Mashed Potato

Why do you discourage such a thing? Is it not love nonetheless?


That is subjective -_- and discipline can be shown through a variety of ways, not just abstinence from pre-marital sex.

There are loads of adults who participate in pre-marital sex. And they are perfectably able to raise children.


I regard it as a fit analogy, as masturbation has proven to be healthy. In the same sense as a carrot, it is good for you. It has been known to relieve stress and "sexual frustration" :P. Not to mention that an orgasm is one of the finest joys of life. cite1 cite2 cite3


Then you reach adulthood, where you finally grow up and shake off those silly fear-based beliefs which have been conditioned into you by religious influences. Adulthood is when you think for yourself, not in fear of some omnipotent creator society wants you to believe so you can behave and obey.

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RNB

Now I may have asked this question before, but what makes a logical view on something so accurate that it is the only way I can look at something? Now you can't tell me it is that accurate of a view because how the heck could you prove that? It would only be illogical for logic to be looked at as perfect.


Though wouldn't that same logic show error in stating that God doesn't exist?


It isn't mean. Like I said before, logic isn't the only lens you can look through to view something. Anyways God doesn't just want somebody who is morally correct. He wants people who are willing to serve him. Now in serving him he would like you to follow his morals, but God is really after a heart filled with love. His morals are all based off of a loving heart.


Adam disobeyed God. That was the sin. He became selfish and put his needs before God's. God did give you a command that you are choosing to disobey. Everybody commits some of the sin that is mentioned in the Bible. If you ever have looked at a woman lustfully then you have sinned. Pretty much every person who has a dick does that. Now on top of this you neglect the only way out, submitting you life to God, whether it be illogical or not. So now your sins carry a burden on you, which sets you up for punishment.

Again God doesn't care about how good you are. He wants a "servants heart." I am not saying you would completely hate it, but in heaven I think, (now I don't know the reference,) it says that in heaven we will be worshiping God and serving him for eternity. If you don't have a "servants heart" then how can you enjoy that. After all you never experienced what eternal damnation is like so it wouldn't look bad to you. I mean it didn't look bad to you on earth.

I got no problem with that. I am tired of the idiots in here spamming it up. Somebody has to get this thing back on track.


It is selfish. If gay couples aren't based on lust then what are they based on? I mean couldn't they find a personality that is compatible with them in the opposite sex? Probably. It has to be based on lust because they go beyond personality and look for what is mostly sexually attractive. Now I am not going to tell you this and then tell you hetero-love is always the opposite. There are plenty of heterosexual couples out there who base their relationship off of lust and that is wrong too.

How is premarital sex not morally wrong according to the Bible? You are having sex with somebody else's spouse. A lot of people want their spouse to be a virgin before they marry them. We can't just be selfish and say, "Well I am gonna bang you, and then tomorrow I'll see you, and then..." It is being greedy is what it is. I am sure most of us politically interested people can understand why greed is so bad. Secondly the natural urge can be repressed mentally. It is called holding it back. Maybe one should learn how to control their mind a bit. Maybe meditate or burn some incense, I don't know. The one major problem with this world right now is that no one feels like harness in the ultimate weapon, the human brain.

But that is selfishness. Why don't you feel that someone is more powerful then you?

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"Nature loves to be hidden."

- Heraclitus

itachi143

the only way to know if god is true is it to see it! or some big prove if not the world will never know

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Mashed Potato

Love. Same as any heterosexual couple.


I think for love to be full, there has to be an element of lust in it. Actually scrap that! lust is just a stronger verson of love! Without lust in a relationship, it is practically dead.
Think about this, some people do care about sexual attraction, the same way you care about intellectual attraction. Why is your way of thinking more correct than those different to it?


Uh... that is adultery, a totally different thing.


May I ask why? Are they more attractive as virgins? I never get when people say that.


It is not greedy at all! Well, not greed by the official definition anyway. Many people have non-marital committed relationships. pre-marital sex is not the same as a one night stand.



Are you implying that I'm not politically interested... 'cause that's not the case. o_-

But why would anyone want to repress them?! They are natural and they are healthy, for petes sake! You only think it is wrong because society makes it out to be wrong. Give one logical explanation as to why masturbation is wrong, providing your moral definiton of "wrong". Until then, wake up!

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Meteorain27

The only non-logical way of looking at something is religious thinking, which is baseless.


No, because you have to prove God exists, because belief in God is baseless.

Again God doesn't care about how good you are. He wants a "servants heart." I am not saying you would completely hate it, but in heaven I think, (now I don't know the reference,) it says that in heaven we will be worshiping God and serving him for eternity. If you don't have a "servants heart" then how can you enjoy that. After all you never experienced what eternal damnation is like so it wouldn't look bad to you. I mean it didn't look bad to you on earth.
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So you really are saying that God only wants mindless servants, and that the morality of a person doesn't matter.

Exactly

People are unique. Maybe the personality that someone loves is in another person of the same sex. So? I admit that I find it disturbing, probably because of my cultural bias, but there is nothing wrong with it.

What if you will marry that person later? Anyways, I personally will be abstinent until marriage (more because of my pride, paranoia of manipulation, and fear of STDs than anything else) but as long as the act is consensual, I see nothing wrong with it. People should be able to do what they want with their own bodies.

Mashed Potato

I agree with this particular quote. The government should GTFO of our lives when it comes to our own sexual activities. Same with religion. I do not want to pope to organise my sexual life when he has hardly any experience in the matter!

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RNB

It can't be based off of pure love. They went for the opposite sex for sexual attraction, not because that was the only person in the world that was compatible to him.


That is not true. According to the Bible love is "Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres." "Love is not self-seeking," is mentioned in here and lust is self-seeking so it cannot be love, according to the Bible. I mean lust is bad whether it be heterosexual, or homosexual. My way of thinking, I believe, is more correct then basing a relationship off of lust because "love never fails." Lust does it is quite obvious with all these divorces going on in our culture.


No premarital sex is adultery. The person you have sex with before you are married could be someone else's future wife. Therefore it is adultery.

It doesn't matter why. What matters is that we should not be selfish and we should respect their views. We shouldn't put our views above another's like that.

A one night stand is premarital sex. You have sex before marriage, which is what pre-before, marital -marriage, sex - sexual intercourse. It must be greedy if you don't care about the person who may marry that person.


No. I am just trying to say that most people who are interested in politics have seen greed's effects on people.


Listen. When you hate someone so much and want to kill them, that is a natural urge. When you are low on money and see a something you want in a corner store and you feel like stealing it, that is a natural urge. Just because it is a natural urge, it doesn't mean it is good to follow through with it. Now I understand the idea that pretty much every male will masturbate sometime in his life, but I think God would rather us try to fight that urge then just let our lust keep piling up like that.

As for why masturbation is wrong, well I won't say the act of masturbation is wrong, but the fact that you usually have to think of a women lustfully is wrong because it is adultery. A lot of people wouldn't like the idea of some person masturbating to their wife.

Edit: Logically prove that.

But don't you also have to prove God does not exist for the state of the argument?

No. This is because a mindless servant of him would do what he asks and he asks that we should not be mindless, but we should follow him out of our own will, through love. Not only that, but a true servant of God would have God's morality, which God also likes, but like I said before, God cares more about the heart then anything.

But why can't that person find a compatible woman? You can't tell me that there is just one perfect fit for a person. Love is really more then just being compatible. Love is the idea that whatever that person does, they will never forsake them.

That type of thinking, "What if I marry the person later," is a dangerous mindset. For one it is just trying to avoid discipline by finding an easy way out. I mean God isn't trying to control people, which is why he gave people the option to not follow him.

I am an anarchist. How could I not agree to this? Though I am a bit different then most anarchists.

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"Nature loves to be hidden."

- Heraclitus

Mashed Potato

Lust by proper definition means "great desire". I think your definition of lust is sexual desire (which is somehow wrong according to you and your God. I have no beef against it. There is no logical reason to be against such a thing). BTW stop quoting and referring to the bible, it has proven to be an unreputable source. Ever tried reading leviticus? You claim to be against a totalitarian government, yet you worship a dogmatic bible packed full with hatred?



Have... to think... of a good analogy....
Technically it isn't adultery. There are so many things wrong with the definition you've provided. I'd be surprised if it wasn't a logical fallacy...
"Adultery is voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and one who is not his or her spouse."
Does it say "person that could be married in the near future"?
That's like saying we shouldn't abort a child because it could grow up to be a future scientist. (Which is bullshit because we have no way of knowing. The same is with whether a person will marry or not). And by the time they have married, the word "adultery" would only be valid if her then husband happens to have sex with another woman.


A one night stand is premarital sex, but pre-marital sex isn't always a one night stand. Get it?
Btw a HUGE generalisation and misuse of the word greedy. I don't think I can convince you any further, you are adamant about the bibles morals.


That is monetary greed, a totally different type. Plus I do not find lust to be greedy. Stop treating your opinions as if they were fact...


Yes I agree with you on that point, but the thing is, masturbation is not a bad thing!?

What about masturbating to your own wife? Is it wrong?

I guess there is no point debating with someone who is adamant about their morals... just as long as you don't try and force it upon others >D There is no universal code for morals, after all. I'll tell you one thing... i've never met a religious anarchist before.

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Miburo

Are you suggesting that we disregard the use of logic because it might somehow, someway potentially be flawed? Now, would we apply this to everything, or just the topic of the existence of God? Come on, you've got to see where I'm going with this, dude. Nothing beats out logic in a debate, or in these types of situations. Especially not blind faith and baseless, unjustifiable claims.

Now for your own personal private beliefs, feel free to go ape-shit crazy with any illogical shit you want. That stuff just doesn't work too well in a debate. Sorry, not going to let this devolve into some far-fetched philosophical crap-fest. I hate that shit. Logic is what we use in debates. ; )

Well, yeah. Kinda. Logically, one cannot state that god positively, definitely, no way-no how doesn't exist. What most intelligent athiests would say is that his existence is equally probable as any imaginary, made-up, completely bullshitted fairy tale creature that I pull straight out my ass though. You know, the type of things that we normally go about our lives under the assumption that they just aren't there. Assuming non-existence is logical, and it's logic that everyone, including you, uses.

Unless you believe that there is a invisible gnome village under my bed that vanishes whenever you try to touch it, and a magic multi-dimensional space lizard eats my garbage every other tuesday. Don't believe me? Then you're using the same logic that I'm applying to the existence of God. He's equally probable, after all.


Oh, so he just wants sheep? He doesn't care if you're a good person, he just wants you to be a huge tool? That's interesting.
God actually told Adam not to eat that shit. Key here being that this command came directly from God. God never told me to do shit, ever. If he did, I'd definitely consider doing whatever he asked or I'd gladly accept the consequences for disobeying him. I've never received any command from God though, so it's not exactly the same thing Adam went through. Protip: The Bible wasn't written by God, it was written by dudes.

I dunno about you, but eternal damnation just sounds like it might suck a bit. Can you honestly say that it's fair that I'd be punished for simply choosing to be logical about my beliefs during my life? He's basically saying "Logic? Fuck that! ETERNAL DAMNATION'D LOL!" That's fucking lame no matter how you slice it, dude.
Just want to comment on this too. They can be based on the same exact things heterosexual relationships are based on. The only difference between the two is that your partner either has a dong or a vagoo. That's it. Saying one is selfish when the other isn't is baseless and wrong. If anything, the idea that you should disregard the love you feel for someone if they happen to be of the same sex is far more superficial then the idea that people should be able to be with whoever they want. God, in this case, is being the superficial guy here. Not the homosexuals.