Mal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vishnu Actually is like AMA said, the bible is an alegory of parables. You cannot actually apply to the society that we are living in the whole biblical concept of life. My country in terms of religion os based on the Eastern Orthodox Church. This Eastern Orthodox Church promotes ( no other term coming to me right now) the rite of Fasting. For the guys that don't know what fasting means, fasting is primarily the act of willingly abstaining from some or all food, drink, or both, for a period of time. The irony here is that it's not quite wilingly because e whole mentality is screwed up and it's considered a grave sin if you don't do it. So now i ask, why an entity that is all powerful, that created us the people and everything that we see would care about someone who doesn't eat let's say cheese for a month? So you see, the religion is the first manifestation of fraud to control limited minds. How can you control a population? Threaten it with the hell : eternal sufference if they don't obey what the bible said. Amd who wrote the bible? Men did.

You cannot apply the "whole Biblical concept" because it was indeed originally written for a very different society. However, by understanding the society for which a work was written we can understand exactly what point is being made, and consider ways that same message can apply to our lives today.

You terribly misunderstand the point of fasting, though I'm not surprised given the over-emphasis it seems to have in your culture. God doesn't care one way or another if someone gives up cheese for a month, the point of fasting is to remove anything which may distract you from God. Sticking with the cheese example, let's say someone absolutely adored cheese and spent much of their time shopping for new and exciting cheeses to try. If this time spent concerned about cheese was preventing them from spending time with God, then fasting and cutting out that distraction would be an excellent way to make more time available to focus on Him.

Religions is indeed and excellent way to control people, which is why I consider everything said in church just as critically, if not more so, than anything else I hear. Blind faith is never good.

Yes, men wrote the Bible, but if it is in any sense true, then who wrote it doesn't matter. Even a liar can tell the truth, so criticizing an individual cannot discredit their words.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vishnu Personally i belive in God, but god only. I don't belive in the church or the rituals. I belive that some entity exists, i don't have rational arguments to support my faith but i'm not a church maniac.

Anything can be abused or corrupted. Just because humanity has failed to perfectly maintain something in service to God does not mean that it is inherently bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vishnu Also, It is not for the gods to decide whether or not Man exists,it is for man to decide whether or not Gods exist.

Just as it is not for Stan Lee to decide if Spiderman "exists," but for Spiderman to decide if Stan Lee exists.

Vishnu

I see your point about fasting but you already gave the answer. The true purpose of fasting has been altered in my culture. And spiderman is a fictional character, we are not. Different religions over time told about about one god or more gods. Christianity has the most adepts because it's the most recent one. The politeist religions have been named pegan. So the men actually decides which religion to embrace.

__________________
When other men blindly follow the truth remember:
Nothing is true!
When other men are limited by morality and law remember:
Everything is permitted!

Mal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vishnu I see your point about fasting but you already gave the answer. The true purpose of fasting has been altered in my culture. And spiderman is a fictional character, we are not. Different religions over time told about about one god or more gods. Christianity has the most adepts because it's the most recent one. The politeist religions have been named pegan. So the men actually decides which religion to embrace.

It is certainly a weak analogy, but only because of Spiderman's lack of consciousness and ability to "decide." The point is though, a creation cannot decide whether or not it's creator exists. I'm not sure how you intended the original statement, but it was worded in such a way as to imply we have some choice in the matter. Obviously, if Spiderman did have some form of consciousness, it would seem pretty stupid for him to deny Stan Lee's existence.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say in the last two sentences.

Scientia

I think what he's trying to say is that if Spiderman had consciousness, and Stan Lee never revealed himself as his creator and no evidence existed proving thus, it'd pretty much be up to Spidey to decide whether or not a creator named Stan Lee exists (out of nowhere), since regardless of how he chooses, the presence is unidentifiable and basically nonexistent in the first place.

We humans are pretty much in the same position.

I think he was trying to go for something philosophical like that. That it is up to humans to create a deity to believe in. To bring that otherwise nonexistent, specific concept into existence, and thus make it exist.


True. But it raises the question of why we have to service God in the first place, since we are so flawed and are bound to corrupt stuff. It makes things a lot more complicated to leave it in our hands. And implies some form of sadism, apathy, or retardation on God's part. Especially when he can just be like "poof, here I am bitches! Follow me, not other humans. I'll lead you on the good path."

Miburo

Yo, probably kinda on topic since we're talking about god and shit:

Going to assume we'd all be in agreement if I suggested that watching a child be brutally raped and not doing anything to stop said brutal rape, despite being totally able to stop it effortlessly without any risk to yourself whatsoever, is pretty hardcore immoral and shit.

Based on that, wouldn't that technically mean God is a massive asshole since He actually does just that all the time? I mean, Dude sees everything. So He sees when kids are getting brutally raped. So He's basically just sitting there watching that shit and not doing anything. What a dick, right?

Now, when I brought this up to some dudes, they suggested that He doesn't do shit because that would violate free will, that it would defeat the purpose of heaven, that suffering makes us tough, and that if we understood God's plan then it would make sense.

I countered these arguments by suggesting that surely they wouldn't say superman saving a child from being brutally raped would interfere with free will, so God could just save children from rape in the way superman would. Or make a shitload of supermen to stop child rape, etc. And if heaven is dependent on child rape to exist, then maybe the whole heaven thing isn't a good idea. That arguing that child rape is actually a good thing because it toughens people up is a morally disgusting argument, because seriously, what the fuck. And if any part of God's plan involves the rape of children, then that's not a very good plan. He's God. He can't make a plan that doesn't involve the rape of children? Come on.

Which led me to play the grand counter of "God can do anything. So he could stop child rape while still not fucking with any of those things. He can make all that shit work, because He's fucking God. Right?" Which I would assume works against any argument presented trying to condone God's allowance of child rape.

Basically, I think I concluded that child rape exists because it's God's will. He basically wants children to be raped.

UchihaTaijiya

I personally don't like to debate about whether God exists or doesn't. And I didn't read this thread, just the latest post by Mibs. And it reminded me of a convo on fb. Hope yall enjoy reading this, I certainly did. It goes on for 111 posts, but I'll just start with a chunk and if anyone wants more, I'll post the rest.

All of these people believe in God. But they disagree on the nature of God presented in the Bible. Go figure. Certainly though, this is a far more entertaining debate than: I believe. And I don't believe. You're irrational. You have no faith.

Since a lot of people on here do not believe, It'd be cool to see yalls reactions to this, even if you wont get a response. If nothing, do it for my pleasure. 8] <3
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Franky
Either God is sovereign or He isn't.
July 8 at 6:03pm via Facebook Mobile · Like ·

Benjamin
Is. Pascal would take that bet.
July 8 at 6:04pm · Like

Kieren
He is! I'll respond to your message soon
July 8 at 6:40pm · Like

Bryant
He isn't.
July 8 at 7:15pm · Like · 1 person

Todd
Can't he be sovereign, but choose to not control whatever he wanted to? I don't think the idea of a sovereign God automatically means he is in complete control over every single little thing.
July 8 at 7:48pm · Like

Franky
Eh then its not sovereignty, its potentiality.
July 8 at 7:54pm · Like

Todd
Not really. It is like right now I have the power to turn off the light in my room, but I actively am choosing not to at the moment. That doesn't take away from the fact that I have the power to do it. If God exists he would have to be able to be in control of everything, but that doesn't mean he actively is. He's God he can do whatever he wants. The sovereignty/non-sovereignt​y question is kind of pointless.
July 8 at 7:58pm · Like · 2 people

Benjamin
The term sovereignty might be the issue, as it implies differing levels of micromanagement depending on the person. Perhaps the term "omniderigent" might help?
July 8 at 8:16pm · Like

Franky
If you have the power over the light switch, you are sovereign over it. If you ignore it, you are still doing so in your sovereignty
July 8 at 8:16pm · Like

Cade
http://www.desiringgod.org​/blog/pos...ven-si​n
July 8 at 8:18pm · Like

Bryant
Hmph. I thought my comment would be a little more conversation-inspiring.
July 8 at 8:32pm · Like · 1 person

William
Sovereignty is a human political metaphor. Human political metaphors are crappy ways to describe and understand a metaphysical being that transcends all human categories.
July 9 at 2:42am · Like · 1 person

Todd
Franky you just helped make my point for me. Just because God has control over everything doesn't mean he is actively controlling everything. Like I said earlier He is God. He can do what he wants. Which makes this whole debate/question a fruitless one. No one will ever be able to find an answer for it.
July 9 at 8:05am · Like · 1 person

William
The problem with the whole conception of sovereignty, in my opinion, is that when you couple that with omnipotence and especially determinism you are arguing that all the women that have been raped and children that have been molested were done so because He wanted them to be. Which is at the very best a hard pill to swallow, and in reality seems very wicked to the point of blasphemy. Especially if you know women that were raped, children molested and so on.
July 9 at 9:49am · Like · 1 person

Franky
I am in total agreement with your lightswitch analogy. The only problem that arises is when you claim that an omniscient being ignores things. It doesn't transfer from a human to a god very well
July 9 at 10:29am · Like

Franky
Bill, the harder pill to swallow is to believe in a weak god.
July 9 at 12:30pm · Like · 1 person

Todd
I don't think you would say that if you were molested or raped for that matter
July 9 at 12:38pm · Like · 1 person

Bryant
Like ^
July 9 at 1:19pm · Like

Todd
Also wouldn't a God that has his hand in springing up 'false' religions so that they can do battle with the one true religion just because he can, and does all of the awful things that take place in our world be more akin to a tyrant then a kind and benevolent god? I think it is far more likely that he just hangs out and watches what we do. That doesn't mean he can't affect things, or that he is ignoring us. It just means he wants us to figure it out and make the right choices on our own.
July 9 at 1:30pm · Like

Bryant
Okay. I can’t hold it back anymore. I’m jumping in. Get ready for a long one

The reason I said that God was not sovereign was simply that what most people mean by the word “sovereign” is, in my opinion, very different from the Biblical idea of sovereignty, and quite different from what I think sovereignty is. Instead of saying, “Yes, I believe God is sovereign, BUT…” I think it becomes more accurate for me to say, “Nevermind. Our understanding of sovereignty is so different that it’s just as true for me to say that I do not believe God is sovereign, because what that words means to me is so different from what it means to you.”

From what I have heard, people use the word “sovereign” to say that God is the puppet master. He pulls all the strings; he controls the show. Every action that the puppets make is a direct result of the manipulation of the puppet master.

Honestly, I would have to agree with @William on this issue: in all sincerity and love, I think such a claim is blasphemy (not putting words in your mouth here, because I don’t think I’ve heard your take on sovereignty lol. Just going off of what I hear from others). I think such a notion about God is possibly one of the many reasons the church is failing so badly today.

Here’s the deal: going with the “puppet master” definition of sovereignty, you have to arrive at the conclusion that sin is in the world because God wants it there. And I definitely count that as blasphemous. Look at how Jesus responded to sin in God’s presence at the temple when he drove out the money changers. That’s how passionately God despises sin. How could anyone possibly think that God wants sin in the world?

To say that God caused the very thing he hates is to completely undermine God’s righteousness and holiness. In an attempt to make God more powerful, we actually undermine his true power, because we basically are calling God a hypocrite for condemning that which He caused. Absurd.

Here is what I mean when I say God is sovereign: He’s in control. Nothing escapes his notice. Nothing is too great for him. Basically, what he says goes. But, as has been previously stated, God doesn’t necessarily exercise that control. He withholds his own hand (now there is some sovereignty for you! Even greater than the power to control the world is having the ability to control the world but having the power to restrain oneself despite that fact). God does not act on his desires and wishes, but suppresses those for the sake of greater desires and plans.

Let me clarify that. God does not wish for there to be sin in the world. He doesn’t want pain. He doesn’t want the world to be in the state it is. The garden of Eden was what God wished for life on earth to look like. However, He obviously didn’t stop things from turning out the way they are now. And I believe that’s because God had a higher plan: He allows evil because He didn’t create us to be puppets. He created children—people, with hearts, minds, and choices. He gives us the choice so that we aren’t merely robots, but we choose him because we choose him, not that he forces us to.

He doesn’t intervene with our pursuits of self-destruction, because then he would be destroying the very thing he created in the first place: an autonomous soul capable of loving Him. That’s the reason He created us in the first place, so he’s not going back on that.

That said, I don’t think he just sits back and watches as we flounder. I believe wholeheartedly that He desires to redeem us, and pursues us completely. But He still allows us to choose right or wrong. It’s still our choice.
July 9 at 2:46pm · Like · 2 people

Todd
I'm not reading it because it is long and I'm an American, but I'm just going to agree with whatever he said.
July 9 at 2:49pm · Like

Franky
So are you saying that God has this big wonderful plan, but he just kinda looks over the means of achieving it that are "dirty" ... leaving the blame on 'lesser actors' maybe?
July 9 at 2:57pm · Like

Bryant
Nope. I'm saying God has the plan that he wants, which also happens to be what's the best for us. But he doesn't force us to choose it.

I'm saying there's a difference between God's plan for someone's life, and the path that that person actually follows.
July 9 at 3:06pm · Like

Joseph
Franky, I haven't read the whole conversation, but I can tell you where to go for a very good read on the sovereignty of God and the problem of evil: the Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas. I've got the library's copy atm, but I'll be returning it this week.
July 9 at 3:32pm · Like

Franky
Bryant, when do you think God made his plan for us
July 9 at 5:46pm · Like

Cameron
I have had first hand experience with the "bad" of this world...death, rape, murder...God uses it all to further his kingdom. And to say that God is not sovereign over these things is to say someone or something else is...THAT I would say is blasphemous!
July 10 at 12:02am · Like

__________________

UchihaTaijiya

Daniel
too bad for the raped, dead and murdered. Bad luck I guess. Maybe they had the comfort of knowing that at the worst moment and possibly last moment of their lives that God was using them for good.

I could barely type that out. If God works like that I renounce him. I repudiate him. I would spit in his face if he had one. But I don't think God operates that way because I can imagine a more just, compassionate and equitable way to go about it. I don't think I should be able to imagine a more compassionate and merciful way than my God. That is my first and really only article of faith: That god surpasses me in every good that I am able to be or imagine. Otherwise you idolize a bully, not My God.
July 10 at 12:12am · Like

Cameron
If God were just, we would all be destined for the lowest pit of Hell!
July 10 at 12:15am · Like

Cameron
Thank God we are justified through Christ's blood.
July 10 at 12:15am · Like

Daniel
wow. You respond to a problem like that with rehearsed platitudes? You didn't even take the time to think of something you hadn't already been told. Does the problem even bother you or have you successfully repressed empathy and sympathy?
July 10 at 12:22am · Like

Cameron
I struggled with this problem very much...when my mom passed away in 08, I had to either come to grips that it was in fact in God's plan, or there is no God. God made it very clear to me that he was in fact real.
July 10 at 12:25am · Like

Cameron
Many good things have come out of that terrible situation.
July 10 at 12:25am · Like

Jonathan
There are two very different conceptions of God going one. That much is obvious. One(Bryant, Todd, Daniel) is very easy to swallow and assent too, God seems kind, loving, but not controlling. He has a plan for me that will get worked out but not with out my choice involved, so I get my part. All the bad stuff in this world is merely "let in" and God does not get the wrap for sovereignty ordaining that it happen for his purpose. It happen with God's notice and permission but for the sake of something that I already love and value just by being a human; my freedom to will what I want. That in mind I could understand why God would let sin into the world; namely, so that i could stay free. That God is easy to swallow it seems to me, and I do not understand why any human would not naturally want that God. What is more interesting to me is why would someone want a God who is more like the other conception going on in this post (Franky, Cameron). How is it that Daniel can denounce that God in disgust, finding him offensive, while Franky can uphold him in amazement and reverence, finding him glorious?
July 10 at 12:30am · Like · 1 person

----

Decent spot to end it ~

__________________

Numinous

After seeing Miburo's posts in the other forum and that facebook convo, I was truly horrified how people excuse child molestation so promptly with "oh, it's an higher plan". Just what the flying fuck?! What possible positive outcome can come out of it to justify such a dickish behaviour from God? To toughen the victim? What, helping uncle Donald in the farm isn't fashionable anymore? And if it's for the victim to create a charitable foundation to help rape victims, wouldn't be much better to, I don't know, STOP THE DAMN RAPES TO BEGIN WITH?!!! And isn't one of the most basic lessons on morality that the end should not justify the means? Also the latency in such cases is a paradox considering the omnibenevolent God the New Testament tried so hard to sell, isn't it?

__________________

UchihaTaijiya

Numinous, I've seen people rationalize rape, molestation, disease and murder as ways of 'tearing the victim(or victims loved ones in case of death; or the parents/siblings in cases such as child molestation) down'. To break their spirit so that they in turn seek God and his grace. Cause you know, they were too prideful and shit. 8/

Here's some more of the convo lol 8]
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Daniel
You set up a false dilemma for one thing. There may well have been positives that accompanied the tragedy, I would never deny that because that has been my experience too. But to say that God did that because he somehow needed it to happen is quite another matter. God, in his grace, gave you the ability to rise above tragedy and to continue to live your life in a positive and fulfilling way. That is quite a different situation.
July 10 at 12:32am · Like · 1 person

Cameron
See, either I believe in a fully sovereign God, or I don't believe in God at all. For me, I am where I am fully because of God and his infinite Grace. I refuse to believe that God merely created a world, and then some other being created what we refuse to admit that God could create. If God is not sovereign over sin or death or anything else "bad", then who is?
July 10 at 12:39am · Like · 1 person

Franky
Anyone who wrongs an infinite being deserves infinite punishment, therefore all deserve infinite punishment because all have wronged God (unless one is without fault AT ALL) therefore God can JUSTLY do all things to all people, what is remarkable (and only remarkable when God is viewed in this manner) is that He shows mercy upon those he wishes to show mercy on. THAT is what is hard to understand. How is it that he forgives so freely, when He is perfectly just and righteous in punishing us for sinning against his infinitcy?
July 10 at 12:54am · Like · 1 person

Cameron
I still don't fully understand that...but I would rather believe in a God who is responsible for everything, than to pick and choose what I think is just for him to be responsible for...
July 10 at 12:56am · Like

Daniel
There is a lot of bad in the world. Does God somehow need it? If he does, he isn't all good. He's a douche in fact. Nothing is all or nothing. I don't believe in any other being but God. There is no God but God and he has many prophets. No devil, no hell, no other power in this universe than the one that wants us to be the best that we can be, God.
July 10 at 12:56am · Like

Cameron
Then how do you explain "bad" stuff? If God is not sovereign over it, then who is?
July 10 at 12:58am · Like

Daniel
Any infinite being that can be wronged is by definition not infinite as it can be hurt or hold a grudge which sounds awfully human to me at least. Of he needs to punish he isn't infinite in his mercy is he? I could let you list contradictions all night. But how can you not see a problem there Frankster?

Bad stuff happens because it does. Because we live short lives in this flesh and that we suffer at the hands of short sighted and selfish people who are not seeking God.
July 10 at 1:01am · Like

Daniel
*if he needs to punish...
July 10 at 1:03am · Like

Cameron
So, the ideas of "wrong" just pop into our heads? The difference is you think God owes mankind something...God owes us nothing...as Frank said, he could send every last one of us to Hell and be completely just in doing so!
July 10 at 1:09am · Like

Daniel
Watch this video. These people were accused of witchcraft and are burned alive by their neighbors. If what you say is true then God wants this and you should rejoice in seeing his will done. There is no evil too bad for God to have commanded for the carrying out of his plan. If it makes you puke, like I did, then you may want to take some time and pray. This is the real. Where the rubber meets the road. Where what you and Franky say intersects with reality, with people, with humanity. Heed the warning. I do not exagerate.

*WARNING YOU CAN NEVER UN-SEE THIS. IT WILL HARM YOUR SOUL*

http://www.liveleak.com/vi​ew?i=dae_1236854361
July 10 at 1:17am · Like

Franky
Nothing can compare to the greatest crime and sin ever conceived, which occurred at calvary, and there is no Christian out there who would say that God did not plan that. (nobody id call a christian anyway)
July 10 at 1:23am · Like

Daniel
You lack guts young Franky. I don't blame you. I wish I had never seen this video. This is what your god wanted though. By your own admission. These people were chosen from the day they were born to die in a make-shift bon-fire at the hands of their neighbors. Too bad for them. That's your god though. He needed for these people to die. He needed it because apparently he needs humans to suffer and die at his pleasure. If you need to believe that, God help you. God help you.
July 10 at 1:45am · Like

Franky
Yes, I firmly believe all things happen by his will. Even that. Even rape and murder. Even the slow decay of your own beloved. Even the scarring memories of sexual abuse. Even the transmission of HIV. Even this very conversation. Even the death of a bird in flight, for even one if these does not fall from the sky apart from my father's wishes.

Hes got guts so I don't have to.
July 10 at 1:51am · Like · 1 person

Joseph
The idea of God being the direct cause of evil was so hard that even the medievals couldn't conceive of Him that way. And these were people who thought it was cool to rip a man limb from limb with horses and draw and quarter criminals. That should tell you something...
July 10 at 2:00am · Like · 1 person

Cameron
What crime can be greater than killing the son of God...or killing God for that matter? I think it is you and people like you who lack guts...you only accept to believe what is "easy" to believe. Of course one will believe that God just created life and not death or anything that appears to no be in our interests and hes a happy being that never gets angry...but that is not the God of scripture, nor the God who plucked me from despair and clothed me in his Mercy and Grace!
July 10 at 2:27am · Like

Daniel
then your god is a dick and cannot overcome human instincts. and I worship him not. May the real god have mercy on your soul.
July 10 at 2:35am · Like

Cameron
if there's no hell, then there is no need for mercy...I'm afraid it is you who need mercy though!
July 10 at 2:39am · Like

Daniel
No, those people who were burned needed it. I hope they get it. I need only what god has given me, Grace.
July 10 at 2:40am · Like

Joseph
I guess you'd be saying it is I that need mercy as well then. Calvin nearly caused me to abandon the faith. I can't stand the man nor the monstrosity he created. What purpose does starting this conversation serve? All that's happened here is that the name of God has been besmirched. It has glorified no one and serves as an example to others as to why they should not become Christian. Arguments such as this are not in the interest of the faith.
July 10 at 2:44am · Like

Cameron
I disagree completely...my point is not that I don't need mercy while you do...my point is that every human being needs mercy, and God is the only one who can give it. I pray that God has mercy on everyone...I take no pride in myself...I am a wretched sinner, God's Grace alone gives me any cause for hope!
July 10 at 2:48am · Like

Daniel
they are exactly in the interest of the faith. At least I think so. That the faithful may gravitate towards a more merciful god.
July 10 at 2:48am · Like

__________________

UchihaTaijiya

Franky
All need mercy, and all things work to the Glory of the Grace of God. If you have commented here, ask yourselves why. May God gives you eyes to see your own sinful motives. This was posted in order that you think about the nature of God. If you seek emotional satisfaction from an emotional argument, I ask you please don't comment or even speak up in discussion, not until you can do so with relatively cool heads. My brother Bryant is a great example to follow. He is not only educated on the matter through deep study of the scriptures, but also he debates the issues with a level head and loving kindness, and this is the guy who stands in my direct opposition in the debate. My pride aside, debate well, please, I firmly believe its not the concept of my God that would scare away a non believer more than the misconduct of Christian discussion. We should take after Bill, he tugs heartstrings and debates philosophical truths like a pro. This was not meant to be condescending as much as to moderate.
July 10 at 3:23am · Like

Daniel
Cameron: do you not think yourself a member of the elect?
July 10 at 3:41am · Like

Daniel
If not: then are you prepared to be damned.
July 10 at 3:41am · Like

Daniel ‎
?
July 10 at 3:46am · Like

Cameron
I believe I am a wretched sinner saved by Grace
July 10 at 3:47am · Like

Daniel
What were those people in the video? Damned from the start? God's chosen victims? How can you sleep soundly with faith in a God who needed those people's blood and screams of agony. They scream in the video. And they eventually just sit there, burning, as if they accepted God's will for their life. It would be east I guess to believe that God didn't really want that for them. But I take the hard road and choose to believe that God wanted them to die that way. To die at the hands of their neighbors. In fire, In Pain, In excruciating agony. Because God needs that pain to get off. Otherwise what's the point?! Oh, that's right, he just needed them to die because he needed 5 human beings to die on this little 3rd rock from the sun in the spiral arm of the Milky Way in the Galactic Cluster that Makes up our corner of the Observable universe.
July 10 at 3:57am · Like

Daniel
Your conception of reality is so small, limited, arbitrary, and in the end unjust. You can conceive of a better way. You choose to stick with the familiar.
July 10 at 4:01am · Like

Daniel
it should at least give a person pause.
July 10 at 4:01am · Like

Cameron
He didn't "need" their deaths, but I believe he ordained them.
July 10 at 4:16am · Like

Daniel
then he is a douche. A mega super douche who has to have a plan that ordains the deaths of those 5 people. Of the 6 million jews of the holocaust. of the 200,000 or more of the genocide in Rwanda. He did absolutely need them if you believe he ordained them, or he would have found another way. If that answer makes you uncomfortable, it should.
July 10 at 4:23am · Like

Daniel
if you choose to defend a contrary position you might as well just buy a swastika armband. At least then the rest of us can tell what you really stand for and let you know where we think you can go. Even if I don't believe in a hell, you do, that should be enough to make the point.
July 10 at 4:29am · Like

Franky
If you conceive of a God anything less than ours, prepare yourself for nothingness. Prepare yourself for a letdown, because you just went there.

God, in his great pleasure and for his own glory, created this world destined for decay. He subjected this world to corruption. He brought all things to being and brings all things out of being. This is the God who raises up nations against one another as well as binds a mother and child in love. God will plan death, rape, murder, and cancer just as he plans peace, artichoke, and bodily health.

God is not Intergalactic SantaClaus, and yes, he is VERY focused upon this little rock.

God is all powerful, and all knowing. All things happen as he sees fit. God is not weak, and God does not do things halfassed. God is bigger than any conception of Good that can fit into your human mind. He is more Glorious than you can possible come to fathom in your entire lifetime. He is bigger than rape and disease.

If you ever realize how in need of him you are, you will put no more confidence in yourself.

Why is it so hard to believe that you could be partaking in the greatest story ever told? Why can the grimy bits not be attributed to the author as much as the happy bits. You can't have good sine bad, and you surely can't have a good story sine evil.

No matter how one slices the cake, there is still the problem of: why is there evil? If you say "God didn't want it, but it just kinda happened... because it was somebody elses fault" you are making God out to be ignorant and a fool.

There is only one way to accept the truth if one believes in an omnipotent omniscient God: that he made beings for the purposes of good and evil.

Praise God, for this being chose to forgive my sinful bones which he knit in my mothers womb.
July 10 at 9:16am · Like

Bryant
I'll get back in on this conversation shortly. Can't type good responses from my phone.
July 10 at 10:09am · Like

Joseph
The problem is that if you have a god of this type, then he is truly a capricious asshole. In what way is it glorifying to have robots mindlessly do your bidding while you arbitrarily treat some nice and burn and brutalize the rest? You're on the wrong side of the problem of evil. There are other ways for there to be an answer to the problem of evil. Before you start another conversation such as this, I strongly recommend you read up on them. I've already told you one place to go. Now go, read and learn. You will profit mightily.
July 10 at 10:19am · Like

Franky
Joseph, a footnote is not supportive if you don't propose points.
July 10 at 11:57am · Like

Joseph
I've told you to read St. Thomas in his Summa Theologica. That's your footnote and in it you'll find your points. Read his writings on the will of God, the problem of evil and whether or not God is the cause of evil. In it you'll find the teaching of the oldest and biggest church.
July 10 at 1:30pm · Like

Franky
Well in a thread like this feel free to support claims with reasons, then say where you got them, but don't just tell me to go read a book lol, otherwise ill send you a, reading list as well and there's no fun in that
July 10 at 1:50pm · Like

Joseph
Ah, but if I tried it'd be predigesting your food for you. You ate neither illiterate nor uneducated. If you're gonna bring up something like this of your own volition you'd better be prepared to do more research.
July 10 at 2:27pm · Like

Joseph
Besides that, I have brought up philosophical objections to your faith which you have not answered. How does Calvinism not make God the worst bastard that ever lived?
July 10 at 2:36pm · Like

Jim
I was going to post a flippant remark on sovereignty, but then I read the conversation. Wow. At a certain point the question ceases to be 'how sick is your god' and becomes 'how sick are you'. Those who worship a genocidal, murdering pedophile really ought to ask themselves, "How sick is this that I'm doing?"
July 10 at 2:52pm · Like

Cameron
You turn things upside down, as if the potter were thought to be like the clay! Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, “You did not make me”? Can the pot say to the potter, “You know nothing”? Isaiah 29:16...Who are you to judge God good or bad? Seems to me that a God that just sits back and watches evil happen but has no sovereignty over it is worse than a God that uses EVERYTHING to the good of those who love him!
July 10 at 3:47pm · Like

Joseph
A god who has directly been responsible for evil entering into the world in the first place, when it was completely within his power to stop evil entering into the world or simply not to create the world, is not benevolent.
July 10 at 4:00pm · Like

Joseph
Your understanding of God's sovereignty demands that you concede him to have directly willed Adam's fall, removing Adam's culpability and the root of sin. This makes all the evil in the world the result of God's whim. Shall we do evil that good may come? God forbid! And why should we not do evil that good may come but he may?
July 10 at 4:02pm · Like

Joseph
If you accuse God of doing evil that good may come then you accuse him of breaking his word. This is something that he cannot do.
July 10 at 4:06pm · Like

Cameron
I believe that Adam had a choice...and once he chose we all chose! For, any of us in his same situation would have made the same choice!
July 10 at 4:16pm · Like

Joseph
Then God is not sovereign in the way you've been arguing, for he relinquished control over Adam's choice. That, or Adam didn't really have a choice because he was incapable of rendering another choice, namely to obey God. This would still make it God's fault if he built Adam in such a way that he would have no other inclination than to take the fruit.
July 10 at 4:19pm · Like

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Numinous

About the "too proud to turn to God" bit, that leads us to the child molestation again: how can a child be too proud to be a theist and needs such a foul punishment to turn to God? And if that child would become an heretic in adulthood, wouldn't it be better to wait for that child to grow enough to acknowledge all the implications (and pick up a less fucked up way to do it, while He's at it)? Now, for the new bits of convo, one bit interested me the most: the specificity of God in our planet. Either God acts in such an alien way because he tries cater to all sentient beings and we can't possibly be in unison with him (rendering modern religion useless) or there is a god for every sentient race, pretty much defeating monotheism.

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UchihaTaijiya

Well the child was raised by ungodly parents and therefore reflects their ungodly ways. If the members of the family heed God's will and warning and begin to accept his grace in their lives, the child will then begin to heal in His all knowing and loving arms. Basically, they asked for it. All of them. Even the sniveling heathen brat. On a serious note, I think if a religious person thinks this way, then they must believe that all are born filled with sin. And babies who die in the crib go to hell?? /yeahidunfuckinknow.

See how easy it is to spout this bullshit? XD And of course there is always the trusty route of: Who are we to question his judgments, on the young, on the old, and all who fall in between? Certainly not joo Num. Certainly not joo. 8]

Well, pertaining to the convo, I think one side is saying that it is not God that caters to us, but we should cater to him and all that he ordains. Which sounds like they believe God knows from the get go exactly if we'll be saved or damned, and he made us and gave us life anyway. (Franky, Cameron, etc) **edit: and that the horrible shit in life he also planned for us.

And the other side thinks we've got free will and that God's intended plan for us doesn't always come to fruition unless we seek him and seek to live in his Grace. Hence, some of us are eventually damned. The bad shit along the way is our own doing, God doesn't want evil but allows evil so free will/choice can remain. So we're damned because we choose it. (Joseph, Daniel, Bryant, etc) And this side seems to think that there is God and then there is 'the God of our limited understanding'.

Pretty sure all of them are monotheist and Christian.

But really, still dun fuckin know. Just trying to sum shit up too...

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ask me anything

I honestly can't fathom how any christian can read their own bible and proclaim their god to be kind and just. I encourage anybody (christian or not) to read the Book of Job, and see how god fucked that guys life up. Job lost all his money, had his family killed, was afflicted by boils, and disease to the point where he wanted to die just so he wouldn't be in pain. Then when he dared to ask god, why he would do such a thing to him, when he had been his most devout follower, god answered back "Who the fuck are you to question me? I'm god motherfucker." All this suffering was merely because god made a bet with satan......and lost.

I bet you'll never hear that preached that in any church.


While I'm at it, here are some more examples of epic douchebaggery:


1. Killing the firstborn child of everybody in Egypt as punishment for not letting the Jews go free. C'mon Really??? If you got a problem with someone, then deal with them. Don't go around killing kids. What kind of pussy ass shit is that. Would anybody advocate killing kids as a form of punishment in any decent justice system.

2. Flooding the world, just because he didn't like how people turned out. Because the "I didn't like them, so I killed them" excuse always justifies genocide, amirite. Does that make Hitler a saint then?

3. Promising the "promised land" to multiple groups. So much for always keeping his word eh.

4. Allowing his own son to be beaten and crucified. Not to worry though, he's immortal and shit. It'll just be excruciatingly painful for a little bit right?


There are no doubt countless other examples. I just can't recall any at the moment.

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Miburo

^Pretty sure He told Moses to stone a dude to death for picking up sticks on a sunday. Stone a dude to death for picking up sticks. Holy shit.

Speaking of holy shit, holy shit, Franky is batshit insane. Even compared to those other dudes. "Franky: Anyone who wrongs an infinite being deserves infinite punishment, therefore all deserve infinite punishment because all have wronged God (unless one is without fault AT ALL) therefore God can JUSTLY do all things to all people, what is remarkable (and only remarkable when God is viewed in this manner) is that He shows mercy upon those he wishes to show mercy on." Holy shit!

And yeah, Num. I was honestly pretty fucking appalled by that dude in that narutard forum when he was trying to justify allowing children to be raped. Like I told that guy, you'd think a sane, semi-rational person would stop himself and say "You know what, this is pretty fucked up shit I'm saying. Maybe I should rethink this shit a bit."

I didn't want to be a dick to him, because I'm sure he'd be saying it's morally disgusting behavior to watch children be raped and not do shit under any other circumstance. But still, that's pretty horrible shit to even say. I was pretty disgusted by that shit, no going to lie. And, as the atheist, I'm suppose to be the amoral savage. Go figure.

UchihaTaijiya

Yeah. I actually used to know Franky pretty well in high school. He's this short, red haired guy who had a huge crush on me. And he had a great sense of humor. I so don't know when he became this way. Must have something with him going to an Alabama University. 8] I kid. But seriously... I co-sign your reaction: HOLY SHIT T_T

One of the sanest remarks from that convo was from Jim: Jim
I was going to post a flippant remark on sovereignty, but then I read the conversation. Wow. At a certain point the question ceases to be 'how sick is your god' and becomes 'how sick are you'. Those who worship a genocidal, murdering pedophile really ought to ask themselves, "How sick is this that I'm doing?"

Here's the end of the convo:
--------------------------------------------
Franky
Joseph, I worship Christ Crucified. That death was the greatest wrong ever committed. Are you suggesting that God's hands are not behind it?
July 10 at 4:19pm · Like

Cameron
Adam made the choice...now we are all destined to pay for that choice!
July 10 at 4:47pm · Like

William
Franky Garcia et alii:
July 10 at 5:48pm · Like

William
The fact that a conception of God is harder to swallow is, at best, tangentially relevant. Why do you have to follow only a God that fits into nice, neat, logically secure and sweepingly majestic conception of God, from your point? Really. Do you want to follow goodness, or the most powerful thing? If you require logical neatness, great power, mind boggling strength, security, etc... couldn't that be getting in the way of seeing truth or following goodness? I don't buy into determinism, not because I want freedom. Personally I think freedom, and especially my own isn't worth a jar of spit.
July 10 at 5:52pm · Like

William
I don't buy into it, because the argument from the greatest strength doesn't move me. So what, a thing can be strong, sovereign, etc etc, and very much evil. There could also be a God that has chosen, or is confined by His own actions and commitments, but who is merciful, kind, tender and loving. Of course, there are thousands of possibilities in between. I just don't trust the urge to staple God to a board and dissect Him for my own security, or so that I can feel vindicated.
July 10 at 5:56pm · Like

William
And when people invoke wish fulfillment as a grounds for questioning or dismissing others positions (an ad hominem, by the way) be very sure that your commitments aren't just based on your own wish fulfillment desires. I've learned too much about myself and others, personally, to not think most of what we all believe is ultimately just an attempt to fashion a world after our own image.
July 10 at 6:00pm · Like

William
Oh, and so many of these arguments are just: This is my definition of God, if He doesn't fit that then He isn't God and/or I have no obligations toward Him. Totally doesn't follow from anyone's arguments and is a crappy argument from either side. If there is a God (I feel there is, of some kind, I'm just not sure what that means, though I feel pretty confident in a Christian conception) then what He/She/It is is wholly independent from what we want God to be, and any ethical obligations that puts on us are wholly independent of whether we want them or not. From my perspective, any conception of God is problematic, and ultimately I have my own dim wits and the movements of my heart to go on, and very little else when it comes to understanding that. So we are all pretty well in the same boat on that score. What I do know from personal experience is that if my strongest motivations for accepting a position aren't honesty, the hunger for truth, the thirst for real goodness, basic and strong ethical commitments, and a radical understanding of the tragedy and brokenness of the world alongside the desire to see it healed, then I'm inevitably spinning my wheels and spiritually and emotionally jerking myself off. It's harder to accept ignorance, limitation, brokenness, sorrow, and confusion than it is to convince yourself you have a good grip and that being right and secure are better.
July 10 at 6:12pm · Like

Cameron
the problem is how can our definitions of kind, tender, and loving be applied to the creator of everything? The only dissecting of God agree with is scripture... just because we think something is mean, does not mean that the creator of the universe can also be given that same description!
July 10 at 6:31pm · Like

William
Maybe, but ultimately we all proceed on our own dull wits. So in some sense I agree with you. BUT, that a thing created the world doesn't imply we SHOULD worship it. That that thing tells me I should show gratitude, doesn't imply that I have to, or that it is right to do so. A thought experiment: A Creator makes all of mankind just to serve as snacks at an intergalactic pit stop. Does that mean that we should be okay with that?
July 10 at 6:34pm · Like

William
And as for the "He does it for the glory" explanation, I don't buy it. It makes God sound like a gangbanger. I think it's just one of many theological solutions that's really just weaseling out of the real answer: We are in no position to know. As with almost everything important in life.
July 10 at 6:41pm · Like

Cameron
right...we should worship God because he sent his son to die for our sins...we are all sinners deserving of the lowest pit of Hell. Would you agree with that at least?
July 10 at 6:48pm · Like

William
I would agree that I have done some things in MY life that have earned MY destruction.
July 10 at 7:07pm · Like

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