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Old 02-05-2008, 11:48 AM   #616
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

Part 2:

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Originally Posted by HinataFanX View Post
Cont.

Chouji: He is the strength of thr group. Without him, Shikamaru doesn't have added protection and Ino is virtually helpless to rely on the rest of her team. All in all, the most he could do is distract one of the other team's members. (7.)The most likely face-off is against Kiba. Now, with his partial multi-size jutsu, he may be able to do a bit more damage, but in a double team, it wouldn't be too big, especially with Gatsuuga. His best choice of weapon, esspecially against Kiba, is his meat tank. this brings me to the Gatsuuga vs. Meat Tank arguement. We can't say which is better, but I'm willing to bet that when faced off, they'd match well, but Kiba and akamaru would be worse for wear, but it'd be a lot worse if Kiba and Aka took their soldier pills. Then again, it could also be argued about Chouji's pills. At that point, I think Kiba and Akamaru could use Garuuga, which is incincible unless it meets an absolute blockade such as Sakon/Ukon's. Chouji would not be able to survive unless he uses that last red pill. This, if he survived, would, worst case scenario, result in the eventual loss of both. If Chouji won this, he'd quickly be disabled by that pill, whcih I maintain is his only defense against Kiba and (8.) Akamaru's Garuuga. Otherwise, Kiba and Akamaru would win, as they were easily still able to move after that attack, even though it was blocked. If it were successful against Chouji, they'd come out of it with only a bit of diminished chakra. Either way, Chouji becomes disabled. This doesn't even include his being effected by genjutsu, which is only nulled when he is in meat tank form.

(9.)As for Asuma, he'd go up agaisnt Kurenai. She's quick, and her genjutsu would effect him before he could even attack her. If she attacked to kill, he'd be down without putting a scratch on her. Genjutsu would beat Taijutsu. I'll go into more detail if needed, but it kind of speaks for itself. This leaves her to help the genin.

Of course, this entire thing focuses on the characters going up agaisnt their best matches, and it doesn't account for variable of if some other character went up agaisnt each other. I'm simply putting them up against their best matches by skill.


7. If Choji faces Kiba and Akamaru at some point (before Akamaru scratching Kiba through Ino) and a Gatsuga approaches him, he can go meat tank (which lets say is as powerful as gatsuuga and he needs another way to defeat it than by overpowering) and bounce here and there, left, right, everywhere (can he bounce?), which is a good counter for Kiba's speed, by drawing confusion with sudden unpredictable bounces (for kiba it would be hard to chase) . Thus he can redirect Kiba into ground or the walls of the arena, and while Kiba is stuck for 3 seconds and preparing for Gatsuga again, Choji lands on him. Same goes in the case they are both under soldier pills. (but not the last pill, coz the blue one increases his strength so it's enough for now).

8. For Garouga. As I said, this is teamwork so Ino will be very useful, once huge Henge Akamaru is busy attacking Chouji, one second of staying still caused by Choji's.... ehm dancing lambada and having Henge Akamaru wonder why he's an idiot, and that second is enough for Ino to trap him. So they will try to stop Garouga from being a successful attack..

9. I won't match Kurenai and Asuma now coz this should be teamwork. Like I stated first, Asuma as a Jounin should have enough knowledge to counter Genjutsu. And Kurenai's Genjutsu is pretty obvious to notice. If you say she has speed (which I haven't seen, in the fight against Itachi, she immediately started with the genjutsu, got countered by Itachi and he slammed her after that, and Kakashi came, I haven't seen her move much), Asuma compensates with strength. He stopped Kisame's Shamehada with his hands. (even if shamehada ripped his skin after that, but Kurenai's fists are not shamehada :P)

So if Asuma is successful in countering her genjutsu (or Shika finds his way to release it just in case), then Asuma looks like having enough chances. Plus he has his chakra blades, he scratched Kisame's face while he didn't even realize it, thinking he actually dodged it. But still I'd combine them in the team from the beginning to help the kids.

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TSO, I hope you won't Genjutsu or Gatsuuga me for this wall of text XD
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Old 02-05-2008, 01:01 PM   #617
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

Good start partner! I got ya covered if TSO goes for genjutsu.
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Old 02-05-2008, 01:14 PM   #618
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

aw thanks. I need a cover, coz now I have no chakra left after all that counter post, and won't be able to deal with any jutsu towards me :P
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Old 02-05-2008, 02:20 PM   #619
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

you actually managed to read that thing? I thought it would be a one hit KO if one only sees it. XD Plus an utter headache. :P

thank you for the feedback. Although I have a feeling it doesn't stand a chance in front of TSO. He's got some good logic.
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Old 02-05-2008, 05:06 PM   #620
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

It is time to bring out the heavy weaponry. Don't worry I'll go as far as needed. Basically no huge walls of text for now...

Quote:
1. You mentioned Shikamaru is the only one who can detect Genjutsu. But since you added Kurenai, why not add Asuma. It's hard for me to believe that a Jounin can't detect Genjutsu. (Gai and Kakashi did). On top of it all, Asuma knows Kurenai and her fighting style (we even got an image of their fight against Itachi). To me it is very easy to assume that Asuma can counter Genjutsu too. Make that 2 people in Team 10 to counter Genjutsu. One defends the team of any sudden attacks, I'll have Asuma, while Shika quickly goes and releases the Genjutsu from the other 2. (Just like Sakura released the the Gejutsu for Naruto and she didn't need for Shika :P) Now they are all prepared to attack again.
Just because genjutsu can possibly be broken by both Shikamaru and Asuma, we don't have any proof that both of them could even dare break the caliber of Kurenai's genjutsu. Heck even Naruto can break genjutsu, but against a highly talented genjutsu user such as Itachi, it meant no nothing. If Shikamaru is caught in a genjutsu that he can't possibly break out of, he'll need help from the others, and if the others are caught in genjutsu, they can't help him, can they? Even if he manages to attempt to override the pain, if the genjutsu is strong enough, he can't get out of it. Although Asuma may be able to detect genjutsu, he does not have the experience that Gai has (who has fought against Kakashi, who uses the sharingan) when it comes to avoiding genjutsu and focusing on the feet.

While the others are trapped in genjutsu, that only leaves Asuma. And even though he is a powerful and versitle shinobi, being out matched in speed in terms of Kiba's Fang over Fang, avoiding the destruction bugs of Shino, and covering his blind spots in which Hinata will make strikes, would be increasingly difficult. Also don't forget that Kurenai is behind everything, so once Asuma makes a wrong move, bam, genjutsu time, team 8 wins by default.

Quote:
3. It might be that Shika is the biggest challenge for Team 8, but don't forget that this is a teamwork, and he's as genius as to make full use of Ino and Choji in the same time, plus Asuma as major backup. All three kids are very well paired for a teamwork since they have a large variety of attacks. Team 8's large speciality is tracking. And being that the arena is a hole that Naruto/Orochimaru made, then I don't see much use of the tracking. Kiba's smell and Hinata's byakugan will need another use than tracking. The arena needs the sun to be on a side to reveal a lot of shadow, and is a god place for Ino to cast the mind jutsu, since the opponents can only run but not hide, and Choji can do a lot of devastation since no forests or other tall obstacles stop him. This would make hiding impossible for both teams.
True, but tracking in this battle is very important. You do remember Gatsuuga right? Well during the transformation, neither Akamaru or Kiba can see perfectly, so prior to using the attack, they'd have to get a distinct smell of the opponent, whether that results in Akamaru urinating on them, etc. By smelling the opponent, they'd be able to attack at fast speeds while not automatically needing to locate the enemy via the eye sight. Hinata's Byakugan is needed to see tricks that are naked to the human eye. If Team 10 planned an attack from the ground, or used substiutions, etc, Hinata could pin point traps like those in an instant. Also Hinata can see the chakra make up of jutsu, she can tell where a shadow possetion make sneak up on. Shino's bugs are important because if a female bug some how lands on an opponent, the other bugs would automatically flock to the location. By tracking, Team 8 is able to set up their offense and defensive strategies.

Quote:
4. Shino alone vs Shika (at the end of your Shika arguments) fails coz I already proved he won't ever be alone due to 2 Genjutsu counters in the team. Now, If the area is a large hole, Shino is in disadvantage coz it's a bit hard to hide himself and leave a clone to fight (unless Naruto left some boulders somewhere, which I kinda doubt). Shino has to hide underground. Can he? Kiba maybe and if Kiba makes holes, he'll give Shika more chances to enhance his shadows and to make more battle strategies hiding things/weapons/bombs or making traps out of those holes. Kiba must think twice if he wants to do that. Now, if Shika fails to cast a shadow:
Shino can make Destructio bug clones. He has no reason to hide. If either teammate dares rush in an attack the wrong one, well bugs would swarm around them so fast it would not be funny. Also since you brought up the hole thing. If Kiba made several holes and Shino secretly sends several destruction bugs down each of them, the bugs would follow the shadow's chakra all the way back to Shikamaru and give him a nice welcoming gift. Kiba can be used as a decoy, he can even be caught, but if the bugs follow those tunnels and get to Shikamaru, Kage Mane Failure.

Quote:
a) due to insufficient sun (which can be countered: if shino sends bugs, shika will use the bugs' shadow to enlarge his shadow)
b) due to Shino eating his chakra
Shino has bug clones, he can afford to make Shikamaru bind and waste his chakra on a bug clone.

Quote:
then: Shika can use it as a “pretended” disadvantage that he's struggling to cast Shino, making Shino believe he's one step farther, while in the next moment he's cast by Ino's mind technique. (exclude the others, they are temporarily busy finding a way how to run from the raging XXL Choji, and Asuma's blades, and they will act as temporary distraction and wall for Shika and Ino, it won't be for long of course but Shika and Ino can make it in time). After this, Choji can do a trip back to Ino, while Shika quickly goes to the others and pretends to have a serious plan to make the others confused and over-attentive at his next move (for enough time), while in the moment Ino releases the jutsu, XXL Choji will be resting on Shino. (with this, Shino is sleeping for a while, if not till the end of the battle, depends how much Choji ate before the fight :P)
So what do you think might happen if Shikamaru get a bug clone? It would be a wasted move and than Ino will definately be out of the battle due to her body just laying all unprotected. Actually Team 10 would have to be more protective of Ino in such a state, so she would hold the team down actually... While Ino is out and Shikamaru is trying to cast his little shadow thinking, Asuma has to fight off against all of them and a potential knock out (Kurenai). How long do you think he can keep that up? By being that size he endangers his life because he would relying on the pill. Also it would be much easier for the bugs to take chakra from him, and Hinata could hit her marks. It would be a bad mistake if Team 8 just unleashed havoc on the giant. So now that's Shikamaru and Asuma. They still have to be weary of the genjutsu that lingers. They'd best keep their distances. Stay too long and the rest of Team 8 will be done with chopping Choji down to size.

Quote:
5. Ino. If Ino is weak against Kiba/Akamaru, and Kurenai (obviously), (and Shino is temporarily snoring, and disturbing the others with the noise), and she won't stand much chance against Hinata's chakra fists and Byakugan unless she dodges very well and finds an opening to hit, theeeeeen, Shika will certainly not put her do any of these but rather use her as distraction (by having her struggle to cast a mind control and having the others dodge, while Shika brings a sudden attack from Choji or Asuma with blades etc). She can any time be used as a reserve to land a mind spell when Shika is sure she has a chance, while Choji will run over as soon as she releases the jutsu and it's too late for the target to move anymore. Anyway, I've used this strategy previously so they probably won't fall for it twice, but I'm not as smart as Shika, so I'll trust him finding very good use of Ino, seeing how many times he can trick a person to fall in his shadow (he can get enough plans for Ino too, she doesn't even need to think, just follow advice and she'll be successful). With Shika present, Ino can be sure to cast a mind jutsu a lot, and leave an opening for one of the members to attack the cast opponent.
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Old 02-05-2008, 05:07 PM   #621
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

The only problem is that is that using her at all is a big risk. She's not going to get an opening on Hinata. Ino punches, misses, while Hinata sends a burst of chakra to her body, making her collaspe. Using her as distraction won't be good either, remeber their dealing with a person who can make clones, an very speedy shinobi, a genjutsu master, and a person who can see through trees. An attack like that would be spotted a mile away.

Quote:
7. If Choji faces Kiba and Akamaru at some point (before Akamaru scratching Kiba through Ino) and a Gatsuga approaches him, he can go meat tank (which lets say is as powerful as gatsuuga and he needs another way to defeat it than by overpowering) and bounce here and there, left, right, everywhere (can he bounce?), which is a good counter for Kiba's speed, by drawing confusion with sudden unpredictable bounces (for kiba it would be hard to chase) . Thus he can redirect Kiba into ground or the walls of the arena, and while Kiba is stuck for 3 seconds and preparing for Gatsuga again, Choji lands on him. Same goes in the case they are both under soldier pills. (but not the last pill, coz the blue one increases his strength so it's enough for now).
Yes but Kiba can go under ground and attack from the bottom up. He can smell him and hear him due to his increased senses. Well that plan is gone...

Quote:
8. For Garouga. As I said, this is teamwork so Ino will be very useful, once huge Henge Akamaru is busy attacking Chouji, one second of staying still caused by Choji's.... ehm dancing lambada and having Henge Akamaru wonder why he's an idiot, and that second is enough for Ino to trap him. So they will try to stop Garouga from being a successful attack..
While she is beings still Kurenai is going to cast a genjutsu on her ass.lol
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Old 02-05-2008, 05:43 PM   #622
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

Heh. I was not expecting a speculated battle this soon, but I guess it was time. Well time to start back from square one...
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Old 02-05-2008, 05:51 PM   #623
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

Yes! Great counter! See the weakness in the arguement, then strike! XD

I may be too excited, but I can't wait for the next counter for me to counterback. XD
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Old 02-05-2008, 05:57 PM   #624
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

Yeah. I have a feeling silver is cooking up something nasty. It will be soon.
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Old 02-05-2008, 06:03 PM   #625
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

Wowwwwwwwww i am going to have to read a lot in the words of shika "what a draggg" .
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Old 02-05-2008, 06:25 PM   #626
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

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It is time to bring out the heavy weaponry.
Heavy artillery commencing to fire
lol, seriously though, its time to get it on.......
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Just because genjutsu can possibly be broken by both Shikamaru and Asuma, we don't have any proof that both of them could even dare break the caliber of Kurenai's genjutsu.
Just as we don't have any proof of the calibur of Kurenai's genjutsu ability. On both sides of this debate for that aspect, we at best can only deduce plausibility to that calibur. But I will add the point as to why Shikamaru (specifically) is plausibly able to break her genjutsu if casted - the Chuunin exam genjutsu was not a simple one and was cast by Kabuto, a shinobi on par with Kakashi at that point. To be equal to Kakashi and actually sqaure off against him... as well as to place an entire stadium under genjutsu is no easy task. THat requires ALOT of chakra and alot of skill. If you noticed, only a few Jounin (Kakashi, Gai, two no-names) and a few genin (Sasuke, Garaa, Sakura, Shikamaru, Temari, and Kankuro) were the only ones still active when it was set. THat alone sets these people apart from the rest to not fall to such a high powered genjutsu. So from that point, it is a strong indication that Shikamaru can break high level genjutsu. If you are pointing out the one from the sound five, then that is taking genjutsu to a different sense. Shikamaru was clever enough to notice that her genjutsu was coming ffrom sound - the hardest sense to block because one can't stop themselves from hearing. From Kurenai, we have only seen genjutsu from the point of sight - and that may well be her expertise in sight-based genjutsu. One to which Shikamaru has shown to be able to break.
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Although Asuma may be able to detect genjutsu, he does not have the experience that Gai has (who has fought against Kakashi, who uses the sharingan) when it comes to avoiding genjutsu and focusing on the feet.
That is solely dealing with SHaringan based genjutsu - which is a whole nother ballgame where different rules apply. Remember that in that same situation, Kurenai's own genjutsu was used against her in teh blink of an eye.

So my counter to this begins with Shikamaru doesn't need much time to cast his own genjutsu, and with his ability of knowing the skill set of team 10, that puts them at a disadvantage because he uses everyone's skills for his plan. In preparation for genjutsu, Shika could just as well throw out kunai to appear that he is missing the target under a genjutsu but really throw them at random places to induce more shadows on the ground that he can use to fuse with his own and thus increase the area that he can cast his shadow upon. With that diversion tactic, team 8 would focus on anothe member while thinking that he is handled or move in for a kill. Just as we saw in part one, even under genjutsu, shikamaru has a plan. Planting a kunai at his own feet would be enough to lead team 10 into false security to attack. At that moment of attack near him, they would be caught in his shadow jutsu aware that he was concentrating on that spot waiting. Once that is done, no one in team 8 has shown raw power to cause struggle with that kage mane hold. He could then break the genjutsu or hold them off for another team mate of team 10 to attack.

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While the others are trapped in genjutsu, that only leaves Asuma. And even though he is a powerful and versitle shinobi, being out matched in speed in terms of Kiba's Fang over Fang
There is no way in Sam Hill that Kiba and Akamaru, genins, have enough power and speed to take out a Jounin of Asuma's level. In a real battle situation like this hypothetical one, a Jounin would not take teh genin lightly. THus Asuma would attack and defend as thought to be equal adversaries. He would then beat the snot out of Kiba and Akamaru. Their speed is trackable by even genin eyes and their power is not that above an upper Chuunin at best. Even with a soldier pill, those two would have to attack from opposing sides that still would be handled with a simple smoke bomb that blinds their sight long enough for Asuma to beat them down. Aside from that, the smoke bomb would be a perfect moment for Asuma to switch positions with Choji and allow him to come rolling in the smoke cloud with his meat take jutsu to flatten Kiba and Akamaru. And if even not flattening them, it would definitely do serious damage since it would be in their blind spot. All the while, Asuma would be on the look out for covering Choji while in the smoke cloud and working to have early detection of genjutsu by Kurenai to worn the others and/or dispell it. But a perfect way around waiting it to bombard Kurenai with false attacks that cause her to not have enough time or focus on casting a genjutsu on other members of team 10.
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avoiding the destruction bugs of Shino,
A Katon jutsu will deal with them fair enough. The bugs can feed on chakra, but not elemental augmentation and elemental jutsus. So burning those suckers is a easy quick way to finish off that job. No worries mate.

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covering his blind spots in which Hinata will make strikes, would be increasingly difficult.
Simple answer to her (Aside from her not bing able to really fight on par with Asuma). Kage buushin, followed by Henge jutsu into Naruto. Answer solved and instant defeat.

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Originally Posted by The Special One View Post
Hinata's Byakugan is needed to see tricks that are naked to the human eye. If Team 10 planned an attack from the ground, or used substiutions, etc, Hinata could pin point traps like those in an instant. Also Hinata can see the chakra make up of jutsu, she can tell where a shadow possetion make sneak up on. Shino's bugs are important because if a female bug some how lands on an opponent, the other bugs would automatically flock to the location. By tracking, Team 8 is able to set up their offense and defensive strategies.
True, but it is that strength that would used and revealed as their weakness in the eyes of Shikamaru. From Kiba and Akamaru's weakness of not being able to see when using Gatsunga, at the moment of peeing before using that jutsu, Choji's double size jutsu allows him to take the piss and then used with tactic precision by Shikamaru to wait until the right moment to use Meat Tank when Kiba and AKamaru use Gatsunga would send them straight into a tank and get squashed. And then on top of that, Choji can see where he is going unlike Kiba and Akamaru. Even if Kurenai used genjutsu on Choji, that fact taht the piss on him would attract Kiba and Akamaru would lead them to still strike at him and knock themselves out since they would be over powered.
Aside from that point, Ino could easily while in manipulate her chakra with her hair to trap Hinata when confused amongst the bombardment of Asuma to charge in with direct attacks, Shikamaru throwing kunai to cause her to move around not knowing that all his kunai are positioned in a circle to connect his shadow and close in on her. At that momen of being held, Ino would just use her mind switch jutsu and use Hinata to attack Kurenai. From that point, its Asuma and Shikamaru versus Shino.

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If Kiba made several holes and Shino secretly sends several destruction bugs down each of them, the bugs would follow the shadow's chakra all the way back to Shikamaru and give him a nice welcoming gift. Kiba can be used as a decoy, he can even be caught, but if the bugs follow those tunnels and get to Shikamaru, Kage Mane Failure.
You assume that his bugs would be able to move. We have so far that nothing else can move in the shadow or their shadow touches his. THe bug's shadows are all connected to Shika and would stop as well. THat would also give Shika more shadow area to stretch his around to get to Shino. Regardless of whether the bugs eat the chakra, they can't move once touched... which means - (think about it.......keep thinking.......almost got it.......there you go) they wouldn't be able to move their mandibles to eat anything. So they would all sit there in darkness just chillin wondering when the next episode of HOUSE would come on.

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Choji's control is not that great, Kiba and Akamaru could just speed around him and knock his fat body out of the park with a fang over fang.
YOu still assume that Kiba has equal power to compete with Choji. Seriously, matching Kiba up with Choji would be a bad idea. But knowing Kiba, Shika would already know that Kiba's rashness and ego would lead him to attack Choji. Leading to his own downfall.

Second half coming...give it time people. Its alot to type in response
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Old 02-05-2008, 06:34 PM   #627
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

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The only problem is that is that using her at all is a big risk. She's not going to get an opening on Hinata. Ino punches, misses, while Hinata sends a burst of chakra to her body, making her collaspe.
You forget that Ino has skills equal to Sakura in part one. Hinata doesn't have the confidence to battle Ino's attitude and actually feel she can win. Drawing on her weak-mindedness and then avoiding her hands, Ino is more than capable of battling against Hinata. Since Hinata didn't inherit the Hyuuga clans skills as much as Neji, just avoiding her palms will be sufficient to battle Hinata. And we have seen that Ino is well skilled at manipulating her chakra to increase her speed and power. Hinata may be a Hyuuga, but she can be beat since she only know limited taijutsu of that use and can be blocked with thrust to her wrist that push her hands outward and away. She isn't that fast for a genin, Neji toyed with her for a while before just deciding to finish her. beside that, we have seen that Ino can fair well at mid-ranged attacks to take out Hinato or to just wear her down. That is a tactic that can be used as well. We have seen that if she mid-ranged attacks, that it is only a matter of time before Shika use catch her in a kage mane as well since he can catch multiple people at a time. And you forget that at moment, Asuma can actually offensively attack when an opening arrives.
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Old 02-05-2008, 07:30 PM   #628
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

silver wonderful plan u nailed it as wel as i can see except for the ino part i see wat ur tryin to say as far as hinatas shyness getting the best but i think she has show she can do buissness when it comes time i think inos lack of real skill will cause her to loose cause the first few hits by hinata and her speed and power increases are gon i jus think hinata has the battle won for she can see through ino and is a better fighter than her inos only chance would be a distraction and a mind transfer that would b it in my oppinion
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Old 02-05-2008, 08:25 PM   #629
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

may I join I am ne but i always win in debates with friends/family but if this is not enough than i will just find somtihng else to do
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Old 02-05-2008, 08:57 PM   #630
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

If either of you two (kimimaro1011 or asq599) wanted to try out, I could try you. That is, if everyone important is too busy.
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