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Old 02-11-2008, 08:02 PM   #871
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

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Originally Posted by liuaishan View Post
lol, I barely read that there was a debate and next moment I see hinatafan counter a post. I was like, wtf, when did SMFox write his post?




well, you should feel the "hax" of having a tablet. I probably wouldn't do as well on a piece of paper.

and I vote that next debate is nude itachi for mystik. And whoever the debate opponent it, they'll regret it :P
yeah i need to get me one of those tablets.. and i see hinata didnt waste anytime on his debate =O

they will go down liuaishan ... downnnnnnnnnn XD
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Old 02-11-2008, 08:03 PM   #872
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

Hey, I can come up with three reasons why the world would implode if Itachi was nude. Seriously, it's that horrible.
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Old 02-11-2008, 08:13 PM   #873
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

and the debate is on =O and already getting hot and heavy alright =D
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Old 02-11-2008, 08:21 PM   #874
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

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Hey, I can come up with three reasons why the world would implode if Itachi was nude. Seriously, it's that horrible.
that's coz you're not a girl, but what if the other side of the debate would be nude tsunade?
:P
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Old 02-11-2008, 08:23 PM   #875
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

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I know how you like it Mystik, and I aim to please ^.^
you know it lol keep it up we want moreee
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Old 02-11-2008, 08:43 PM   #876
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

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I am teh gramare Nazi!! AND I'Z DEMAND'z that you spelled dat 'liek' like it should be spelleded!!
lol at the not countering of anythign. (the misspelled "anything" is for you, oh grammar nazi)

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This here is where my beef with your post really comes in. I suppose I will use this as my opening debate as well. No where, has it ever been stated that the Byakugan grants them extra chakra control. That is something that they gain through heavy training in the Jyuuken.

The reason the Byakugan users prefer this style is because of their ability to see chakra, and as such, see the specific spots on the body in which one must hit. The jyuuken itself however, can be performed by anyone. Or are you going to tell me only those with the Byakugan are capable of pushing out chakra from their hands? The Byakugan is merely that which makes it most feasible as a style due to the enhanced sight, allowing one to see where to hit, as well as keep the flowing edge to their style. After all..it wouldn't be gentle now if it didn't flow now would it? o.O
And how many other people do you see that train in the Jyuuken style? It's used because they have that extra chakra sensing ability. I can't see anyone else using such a style because, even if they can push chakra out on such an exact or presice level as a Byakugan user (which has yet to be shown anyone can do), if they can't see the chakra points, it would be much less effective.

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Likewise, by proxy, the Sharingan can indeed copy this taijutsu style. The only question is, will the one doing the copying have the control necessary to push out chakra in such a fine degree? And for someone who has trained so extensively, like perhaps Sasuke, or Itachi, I think such a feat would be achievable.

-edit- Actually, I know Sasuke would, because isn't his Chidori Nagashi essentially the same thing? Pushing not only just chakra, but lightning natured chakra from his whole body and the various tenketsu/pores that chakra is released from?
-end edit-
For one, even if they did copy the fighting style, is it the style a Sharingan user would use? They focus more on using copied jutsu and casting genjutsu. Fighting close range, which the style employs, especially with an experienced Byakugan user, leaves very little time to use jutsu and genjutsu. (FYI it has not been proven that having Sharingan=fast signing ability, so don't use fast signs for genjutsu and ninjutsu as evidence) Even if they wanted to, I don't think, nor should you, that copying the style alone with some chakra exerting ability is enough to equal, let alone beat, the style of a Byakugan user.

I'm going to assume the Sasuke thing was an example of chakra control as opposed to Sasuke's use of jutsu, as that has nothing to do with a Sharingan Vs. Byakugan debate.

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Along with the enhanced abilities of prediction granted by the Sharingan
And the ability to grasp everything behind the Jyuuken style itself, the Sharingan wielder, could counter each and every blow effectively.
Don't forget, glancing blows are highly effective and part of what the Jyuuken style with Byakugan is ment to entail.

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However, that is only if you bring the user into play. I thought this was supposed to be a Byakugan vs Sharingan debate myself, so shouldn't we keep their specific styles and things like the Jyuuken out of it? ^.^
Maybe, but as every user of Byakugan (that we know of) uses the Jyuuken style, I kind of thought of it almost liek a bundle pack. As it's part of the Byakugan traing, it goes hand in hand. With Sharingan, there isn't a true taijutsu style because they don't usually focus on taijutsu.

I'd also like to bring back up soem points you didn't address.

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Byakugan, as stated, can counter genjutsu by many means, they've been stated to have better power of perception than Sharingan, and also know how to predict attacks,

(even if Sharingan allows you to see chakra, it isn't to the degree of a Byakugan user). That's in relevance to the Sharingan Vs. Byakugan debate. I can't say much about preference, but speed is easily countered by an experienced Byakugan user, as Neji stopped Naruto's direct attack by releasing chakra, which stopped him and held him, then followed it up with a Kaiten. Not only that, but the actual close range speed of a Byakugan user is very, very fast, especially considering 64 point and 128 point jutsu, which all have fairly large range, if I remember right in the Naruto Vs. Neji fight.
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Old 02-11-2008, 09:05 PM   #877
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

I'll try my hardest, no promises though if I get really into it. XD
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Old 02-11-2008, 10:37 PM   #878
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

And they would keep me out of a debate with Neji involved. What the fuck, man. This is unbearable. >.<

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that's coz you're not a girl, but what if the other side of the debate would be nude tsunade?
:P
That shit is horrible too.

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Old 02-11-2008, 11:00 PM   #879
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

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Ahh but you missed the true beauty of it. By copying it, you form an understanding of it, further enhancing the already incredible capabilities for prediction, as the manga page I used in my last post implied. This is the true beauty of it all: What good can a taijutsu style do, if your opponent knows everything about it, and everything you're going to do before you do? o.O
With such a powerful entity on your side, you wouldn't even need heavy speed, because you could avoid most attacks with the barest of movements, and not only that, but counter effectively in between.

And this benefit is threefold, mind you. *The plot thickens* This benefit not only works as a boon to the Sharingan user, but it also effects his/her opponent in a negative way. While the Sharingan user is constantly bobbing and weaving, avoiding with the barest of movements and countering effectively, the Byakugan user is constantly expelling chakra with each and every attack, swinging away to no avail, and no effect. And I highly doubt simply having the Sharingan active is nearly as draining as shooting out chakra with every swing of your arms, or the even more fatiguing Kaiten. Heh, he wouldn't even have to do anything, just let em wear himself down if he wanted.
One sec. Before we go further into this, I'd like proof that Sharingan can copy Taijutsu. As far as I know, it only has the ability to copy Ninjutsu. If you can't provide proof of that, then your entire arguement against my statement, that Jyuuken can't be copied, is null and would/should be discarded.

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Now I know what you're saying, Byakugan has insight and perception as well...it says so in the manga right? But that would mean taking Kakashi's words a great deal more liberal than for what he was referring to. He was not speaking of the prediction factor of his Sharingan when he said that during Hinata and Neji's battle. Re-read that chapter ^.^ I'd rather keep the text wall down in whatever ways I can so I'll leave that part out for now.
Even if I'm interpreting it wrong, though I know what you're saying, it's an interpretation. Kakashi said, "In terms of insight, the Byakugan surpasses even my Sharingan." Coupled with the incredible prediction power Neji demonstrated by countering Naruto's clones and Kidoumaru's projectiles and spiders, I have to believe (and you should to) that it wasn't just talking about seeing Hinata's feelings and also applied to actual bettle insight.

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I addressed most of this with the paragraph above. However, I would like to bring up the text in bold. The Sharingan excels in all fields, not just those. Sasuke's battle at the VotE should be evidence enough of this as even at his lesser level in part one, he was able to easily and effectively keep up with, as well as to counter kyuubified Naruto in a solid taijutsu battle.

This, coupled with my above paragraph, should solidify any questions about the Sharingan user's ability to safely combat in close quarters, and at a distance should they choose to do so, such as when one of those pesky Kaitens shows up.
I don't see how a paragraph about interpreting Kakashi's statement about Byakugan's insight solidifies a statement about close range taijutsu. Could you explain that a bit, please?

But if you jsut mean your entire statement before that, then it may be discarded if you can't find that proof I asked for.

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Indeed it does not, and I was merely bringing up the incredible focus and chakra control that such a feat would require as evidence that such chakra control is certainly within the realm of possibility for others besides those of the Hyuuga.
While that may be, because Sharingan has nowhere near the chakra sensing ability of the Byakugan, and chakra control like that among non-byakugan users can vary wildly, I doubt that such evidence could be used in a specific Sharingan Vs. Byakugan debate. Even if a Sharingan user had the highest in this large variant of chakra controls, they wouldn't have the ability to use it the way a Byakugan user does, forcing it into and damaging the opponent. This is, of course, because a Sharingan user can't see chakra points the way a Byakugan user can.

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The only things in that remaining paragraph in which you quoted yourself, that I did not address already now, would be the use of genjutsu the 128 strikes. A high speed taijutsu combination in which the Hyuuga in question rapidly locks up all tenketsu in the body. A truly devastating and terrifying attack to be sure. If the user is capable of using it that is. As I said above, because of the subtleties of the body, and the prediction, and the complete knowledge of the style through the use of the Sharingan, even a novice would see it coming from a mile away. Especially since they have a nasty habit of calling it out before they do it *lol I'm j/k* But seriously, the Sharingan wielder would see it coming, and get the hell out of the way when necessary...really sucks being so predictable eh?
Does seeing it coming make a difference when at the time the Byakugan user is moving so fast that, from his perspective, time is practically standing still? If he activates it and the opponent can't react, does it matter if they see it? Lee showed this as an example: If the Sharingan user can't keep up, it doesn't matter if they can see it. Besides, it's a Naruto rule of thumb to shout the move you're going to use, so that doesnt really matter that much. XD

Also, as a Byakugan user has just as much, or more, insight than the Sharingan, don't you think someone who specializes in it would account for the enemy dodging? It makes enough since that someone who moves that fast for those jutsus would account for dodging, not to mention that speed is a variant. Just because you have Sharingan does not mean you're automatically fast, and unlike Byakugan, you don't learn from the age of 3 how to use it to it's fullest, because Sharingan is a Doujutsu that isn't developed from birth, it is gained. This means that you can't guarantee a Sharingan user has the speed to back up this dodging ability you're talking about, and your arguement isn't necessarily true.

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As for genjutsu, I'll give you that. The byakugan provides a means of which to easily detect genjutsu. Provided that they are strong enough to release the genjutsu, otherwise, they can see it all they want but it would be of no effect to them. However, would they be strong enough to remove a genjutsu as powerful as those enhanced by the hypnotic eye effect of the Sharingan? I believe Zabuza elaborated on this during their bridge battle when it began, so go re-read that...I'm too lazy to go browsing and posting making this damn text wall even bigger.
I'm glad you agree with countering normal genjutsu, as that is a major factor in the regular Sharingan which you just forfeited as a win to the Byakugan. That helps my arguement quiet a bit and will cut down the walls of text a bit later.
As for the Hypnotic Eye, it shouldn't be a problem it is a type of genjutsu that tells the opponent what to do. All it did with Zabuza was put a subliminal message type thing in his mind, giving him the idea of using a certain jutsu. This was used to simply freak out Zabuza because it made Kakashi appear to be copying his closely. This wouldn't matter in a Byakugan Vs. Sharingan debate, because we aren't including jutsu in the equation. Even if you just include the messages used in a different way, seeing increased eye chakra should show them if a particular eye technique is being used, such as hypnotic eye, and even then, all they have to do is use one of their many ways we've discussed of deactivating it or even use the ways of avoiding genjutsu beforehand to even keep from being affected by the hypnotic eye in the first place.

I'll try to cut it down from here on out.
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Old 02-11-2008, 11:04 PM   #880
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

It's hard biting my tongue for this one.
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Old 02-11-2008, 11:10 PM   #881
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

Well, Trey, now you know how I felt during your debate before! XD
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Old 02-11-2008, 11:20 PM   #882
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

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Well, Trey, now you know how I felt during your debate before! XD
Argh! You better defend the Hyuuga honor well, or I shall smite thee with my patented Brain Melt no Jutsu! Then I'll proceed to unleash the One Thousand, Two Hundred and Forty-Four Palms on you.
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Old 02-11-2008, 11:23 PM   #883
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

Ohhh nice debate going on so far fuking hate your walls of texts both of you

Ha ha yeah trey it was i who left you out of a hyugga debate *runs*
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Old 02-11-2008, 11:34 PM   #884
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

I'm back on, getting to it...

Edit: Okay then, thanks for that. I don't even know why I forgot that. XD

In that case, I'll address your previous points more thouroughly.

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Ahh but you missed the true beauty of it. By copying it, you form an understanding of it, further enhancing the already incredible capabilities for prediction, as the manga page I used in my last post implied. This is the true beauty of it all: What good can a taijutsu style do, if your opponent knows everything about it, and everything you're going to do before you do?
Just because you can see it and copy the style does not mean you know everything about it. Inversely, if you're the one they're copying, don't you already know more about it than they do? It's strengths, it's weaknesses...say...how to counter it, perhaps? I mean, Neji counteracted Hinata's, despite them using the exact same style, he just was better overall. So, wouldn't the original owner of the style, in this case, use it much better? I think so.

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With such a powerful entity on your side, you wouldn't even need heavy speed, because you could avoid most attacks with the barest of movements, and not only that, but counter effectively in between.

And this benefit is threefold, mind you. *The plot thickens* This benefit not only works as a boon to the Sharingan user, but it also effects his/her opponent in a negative way. While the Sharingan user is constantly bobbing and weaving, avoiding with the barest of movements and countering effectively, the Byakugan user is constantly expelling chakra with each and every attack, swinging away to no avail, and no effect. And I highly doubt simply having the Sharingan active is nearly as draining as shooting out chakra with every swing of your arms, or the even more fatiguing Kaiten. Heh, he wouldn't even have to do anything, just let em wear himself down if he wanted.
You can't have forgotten this already. Glancing blows are enough to cause serious damage. The barest of movements wouldn't be enough to avoid being effected. Also, countering is highly unlikely because there would most likely be some sort of glancing blow involved, and even so, with it's own insight, there's no way Sharingan can block all of the Byakugan's hits. It's foolish to think so. Also, Kaiten is a mid-range attack, for the most part, so if you're dodging with the "barest of movements", you'd be susceptible to kaiten. The sharingan user wouldn't know about it until it's used. Just because you copy the style does not mean you know how to use it. If a sharingan user didn't know about the Kaiten, he isn't going to automatically know about it by copying the taijutsu.

Now, in counter to your last post, remember, Sasuke, over the course of the time between his mini-match with Lee and his Prelim match, he copied one move. It took him 30 days between the prelims and the finals to actually get the taijutsu style! I don't care how you slice it, a battle between a Byakugan user and a Sharingan user is not going to last 30 days, and it's not going to give the Sharingan user a chance to train up to the level of the Byakugan user. Let me put it this way: Just because you copy it does not mean you're automatically equal to the one using it, and it does not mean you can insta-copy the entire taijutsu style perfectly. It takes a lot more training to actually learn the taijutsu style or an enemy.

Now, on my own path, let me demonstrate how variables play into each strategy, that way we can see how many things outside of the base versions of each. This way, we can see which things would make a difference and may change the course of a fight.

Sharingan:

For sure: perception of basic moves and jutsu (and maybe copying them), copying tai and ninjutsu (but we don't know how well or if it matters with Jyuuken), increased ability to learn genjutsu (which we decided is null for the most part against Byakugan), and prediction capability.

Variable: Chakra control, ability to match copied taijtusu and ninjutsu, speed, genjutsu strength and ability to use genjutsu (as Sasuke had none pre TS yet he had Sharingan, and it still doesn't matter that much against Byakuan), Ninjutsus previously copied and learned, and level of Sharingan (tomoes, MS, etc.)

Many of the things you're argueing for are based on variables that determine on the individual. If you are just talking about a clean slate Sharingan, and not including jutsu, it's near worthless until it finds somethign of worth to copy, and even then, you don't know how well they could copy it on short notice, like in the middle of the fight, and theres almost no way that they could match it move for move. Speed is a major variable, and it's been proven that Byakugan users have very fast close range attacks, even when not using a particular technique.

Now for Byakugan users:

For sure: Closing Chakra points, increased close-range speed, 360 degree vision, long-range vision, increased insight that as far as we know is greater than Sharingan, good defense against mid and long range attacks due to aforementioned insight, increased chakra control, and internal organ damage.

Variable: 64 or 128 points, Kaiten, chakra control (is it "this" much superior or "THIS" much superior? In other words, how much more superior is it?), and long and mid range speed.

By way of variables, it only has the more advanced jutsu and speed as possible variable factors.

Put in two fighters without the variables, and Sharingan loses any real advantage it gives the user other than it's prediction, which Byakugan can, as far as we knwo and I've percieved, match or beat it blow for blow, and it's copying, which once again, we don't know the strength of that copy of the style of a Byakugan user. It's all up to variables and personal training with the Sharingan, while with the Byakugan it's either and automatic given or something that's taught to them practically from birth to the point at which it practically becomes bundled with having the Byakugan.

Basically, if you put people with the most basic skills of each against each other, Byakugan comes out on top.
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Old 02-12-2008, 12:39 AM   #885
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

....man I really want to be in this. I'm jonesin' here.
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