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Old 02-12-2008, 12:49 AM   #886
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

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Originally Posted by SMFox1987 View Post
Before we go any farther, we need to clarify something right now. Is this a Byakugan vs Sharingan debate, or a top Hyuuga vs top Uchiha battle?

You are now bringing in advanced techniques that are considered in league with the Jyuuken, but only known to the upper end as branch members are not trained in either the Kaiten or the hands of Hakke. Neji himself developed and learned this abilities on his own, without any aid from others. Regular Hyuuga, do not know them.

You agreed earlier, that the Jyuuken itself had to be considered into this debate because it's what all Hyuuga use. But if you seriously want to turn this into a jutsu battle, that would give me infinite access to all jutsu in which the Sharingan is capable of copying. So now I ask you this...is this an eye vs eye debate, or are you seriously wanting to step up to challenge me in such an arena as Itachi vs HIashi or Itachi vs Neji? Because if not, then I suggest you back down on trying to bring in every single technique ever used by the Hyuuga, otherwise I will be forced to bite back, and I have very sharp teeth.
Itachi Vs Neji is not fair, since it is not proven Neji is the Hyuuga's top ninja. He may have the highest potential, but even Neji would get murdered by Itachi. (Not without tapping Itachi in the kidney, causing him to bleed out. Hell yeah!)

Edit--Really, get me a debate with Hyuuga's involved after this one is concluded. I'm out for blood. >=]

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Old 02-12-2008, 01:02 AM   #887
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

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Originally Posted by SMFox1987 View Post
That's why I don't want to do this, but he's trying to turn it into a jutsu battle by bringing in every advanced Jyuuken technique we've been privy to. Now if hes being allowed to bring in such things as the style of the Hyuuga, and all these pre-learned techniques, then I will be forced to do so as well, and bring in the possibilities of knowing 1000 or more techniques and then some to the battle. It would essentially become a jutsu battle and I honestly don't think either one of us want to go there. So perhaps this should be cut down to and eye vs eye debate before he takes it any farther.

I myself have kept abilities down to a bare minimum and only the direct capabilities of the Sharingan eye itself and not brought in any jutsu aside from an occasional sharingan enhanced genjutsu as a deterrent. If he will not do the same, then I will be forced to bring out the heavy artillery and none of us want that.
Since I can't say much else I'd have an affect on the debate, I'll keep this short: bringing up the jutsu potential of the Sharingan isn't that effective since the user must actually know how to do the jutsu himself. The only thing the Sharingan user gets from his eye is the hand seal--the chakra amount, nature, et cetera they must figure out on their own. That's why Kakashi and Itachi know so many jutsus; it's because they know a lot of different elements and are experienced in many different jutsu types.

And what HinataFanX is doing is fair game, because our only sampling of the Hyuuga is Neji and Hinata (and to a small extent Hizashi). We know nothing of a run-of-the-mill Hyuuga.

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Old 02-12-2008, 01:13 AM   #888
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

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The Byakugan can see all around the user, I will not argue such a point, because that is a fact. To that end, it wasn't so much prediction, as simply being able to see the clone coming long before it even got within striking range. If you see a clone coming behind you, there's no 'prediction' to it. Especially when they are as slow as Naruto's clones were during that fight. I mean let's face it, Naruto wasn't exactly a 'speed' demon in part one. Unlike Neji who demonstrated impressive speed, especially with his 64/128 palms.

For the arrow, as someone recently pointed out, that wasn't so much prediction as much as it was Neji's own personal intelligence. As someone so kindly pointed out for me, he has a small field of chakra that he extends from his body, and he is capable of using said field, to see oncoming attacks. This is how he was able to avoid the arrow, and might I add, only just barely. Also, I think it's safe to say that he knew Kidomaru was aiming for the blind spot, as he had already shot at the spot once already. As such, he was expecting it. Neji isn't stupid, it wouldn't have been hard to figure that the guy was aiming for the blind spot, which he ,Neji being a genius that he is, would of course have to know about already. But again, that is a far cry from prediction, as the chakra field is how he 'felt' it as it approached him.
So, it's not prediction, you just admit that he showed a superior form of insight into his opponent's next moves. Well, if that ain't the dictionary definition of prediction I don't know what is!

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As I have provided evidence on this matter now, I await your returning counter to it.
I still don't see how a paragraph about interpreting Kakashi's statement about Byakugan's insight solidifies a statement about close range taijutsu.

But if you were refering to the others, I refered to the overall stuff in my edited post.

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Indeed, I already said that as well in my opening posts, and like I said, the Sharingan user would not need to, as they would not need to actually use the gentle fist, merely their extreme knowledge of every movement the user makes, will make, and so on and so forth. I would however like to point out, that the level of chakra control as you stated, varies between the users. You're prime example and candidate, Hyuuga Neji, has displayed levels and capabilities that have been stated to be far beyond the norm. And since he is the only Hyuuga, discounting Hinata, that we have seen, you have based this statement as if all Hyuuga possess such capabilities when this is not so. If you persist with this argument, then you too would be forced to accept that Neji is not the norm as far as capabilities go, and accept a lower standard for all other Hyuuga...I really don't think you wanna go there now do ya ^.^
A sharingan user soes not, nor would he ever know the exact moves a user will make until abotu a split second before he uses it. Evne if he copies the style, he will not gain great all-seeign knowledge of the style or it's user's habits. To think that it would grant the user an ability to forsee every attack used after that in that style is dead wrong, as any different combination could be moved at any time. The copying would only give the basics of the Taijutsu, to get it all exactly right, the time it would take, the Sharingan user would be mostly drained by glancing blows, near misses, and even a few direct hits before he got it right to that degree.

And as for the Neji not being the norm, I did that before reading your post, check my edited one. I did want to go there, and did.

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However, you are also basing that godlike speed almost solely off Nejis own personal 64/128 hands attack. Not all Hyuuga are presumed to have such advanced speed or capabilities as the proclaimed prodigy and genius. (Yea, since you brought this up before about not all Sharingan users being like Sasuke, I'm gonna bring it right back at you).
Maybe I was, but that was because it was in response to you talking about the Sharingan user getting out of the way of such jutsu, which is another speed issue.

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Furthermore, while I do agree that once the attack has started, there would be no avoiding it. However, this attack also requires the user to enter a specific stance to get the flow of motion right before beginning the attack, which is more than enough time to jump the hell away and avoid them like the plague. That is of course provided that the Sharingan user doesn't take such an opportunity as to use something debilitating, like one of the many Sharingan enhanced genjutsu to briefly disrupt them. Byakugan users are not immune to genjutsu, they merely have an advanced means of detecting it, and by proxy, are able to recognize and remove them accordingly. The Byakugan user would have to halt their stance, and progress in the palms, to remove the genjutsu before carrying on, all the while, the Sharingan user would have ample time to get away. And that's IF the Sharingan user couldn't just get away from the many signs that they were about to perform the technique.
I'm glad you see that. Now as for your genjutsu, with the chakra control they have, or simply by closing their eyes or lookign another way, they could avoid that altogether while still keeping tabs on where their opponent is. Also, this is even if the sharingan user has Genjutsu, which is not atomatic of a Sharingan user. Remember, Sasuke had no genjutsu at all pre TS, so it's not a Sharingan requirement. so you're right, it could be a distration, if thy could even manage to trap the Byakugan user in a genjutsu.

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Also, just because we see Hyuuga are being trained from the age of 3, doesn't mean Sharingan users weren't any better...both clans had a ridiculous sense of self pride in their clans, and as such, wished perfection on their younger generation...hell, if Itachi isn't a prime example of Uchiha cultivation, I don't know what is...just look at the pages involving Fugaku and Itachi in those first few flashbacks of those times. Itachi was practically raised in such a manner. And was expected to be the best at all times, just like the Hyuuga and their own training regiment.
Yes, but the Uchiha training was more to do with jutsu outside of the Sharingan. If it was gained ever, they probably would train the user in that, but as far as we know, not everyone developed it at all, and many developed it further in life than Sasuke or Itachi did. The Uchiha regiment wouldn't have fucused on Sharingan abilities, because not everyone had Sharingan. I knwo that you know that Sasuke wasn't trained at all in Sharingan, he was trained in ninjutsu and katon tachniques, nost of which he trained himself in. Even if he was young, Hyuugas at that age already were being tought the Gentle Fist.

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Again with trying to downplay the abilities and bring it to the users. I believe my above paragraph on this matter answered this already, but just in case, again I reiterate, such godlike speed is only during the 64/128 strikes, not 24/7 perma god speed. And even then, not all Byakugan users can hold a candle to the Hyuuga prodigy.

You really are downplaying Neji though here with this argument o.O Trey is gonna hurt you if you keep it up.
You're right, I am downplaying Neji, because I don't want the focus to be on the prodigies, I'm focusing on the Byakugan in general, and yes I am bringing up some of the advanced techniques, but I'm not making them exclusive to Neji, because it's possible that other Byakugan users that were that advanced could use them too. It's not like 64 points isn't known (by that I mean Hizashi recognized it during the Chuunin exams, and he used Kaiten during the Konoha attack, though that may have been anime only, but we still know that he recognized it as well when Neji used it), and I'm pretty sure 128 is more like a large, advanced next step after that. I'm bringing them up when I need to, but I'm trying my best to keep within the normal boundaries of the doujutsus. See my edited post of more of that.

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I am not conceding it, I am merely stating that they can take notice of it and as such, they lose a great deal of overall effectiveness. The user would still have
Ah, but you do agree with the rather obvious way to avoid it. Ways that can almost guarantee that genjutsu is fairly no problem throughout the match. Liek you said, much less effectiveness. I'll also finish that sentance for you. "The user would still have ability to cast genjutsu." (I'm assuming here that that's the jist of what you were going to say) Not neccesarily. Just because you have Sharingan does not mean you have genjutsu. It's a matter of training and learning. Sharingan just gives you greater ability to learn and use genjutsu.

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Gah...why did you do that Hinatafan? You came on, said you were posting, then logged off again...I finally just assumed you were gone and posted anyways.
I wasn't logged off, I was just idle for awhile while typing my response.
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Old 02-12-2008, 01:24 AM   #889
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

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Originally Posted by SMFox1987 View Post
Okay then. Well, since the only Uchiha we have encountered are Sasuke, Itachi, Madara, and by proxy of the Sharingan, Kakashi, am I to say that THEY are the norm as well?

And that's IF I don't bring in Madara and did I mention, Kyuubi control yet?

As for usefulness of any technique, that relies on the user itself. Trying to argue that a Sharingan user MIGHT not know how to use a technique, is no better than trying to say that it's normal for every Hyuuga to be as great as the prodigy Neji just because he's the only one we've really seen besides Hinata. Just like how the Hyuuga MIGHT be as smart as Neji, or as capable as Neji...or so and so as Neji...get where I'm going here?

If you use that, then it's no different if I compare all Uchiha to Sasuke, or Itachi.
Just like how the Uchiha MIGHT be as smart as Itachi, or MIGHT be as capable as Itachi...it's an unfair issue.

This is why I am reccomending this become an eye vs eye debate, as it was originally intended, and not arguing about the 'potential' capabilities of the users.
Of course you can, since it cuts out all the assumptions. See this is where I can actually start talking, since I'm effectively dodging the guidelines of the debate (which is Byakugan Vs Sharingan, not Hyuuga Vs Uchiha ).

Not Madara and Kyuubi control, however, since that hasn't been expanded upon yet.

Also, what Neji does is something every Upper Branch member knows. So that's at least half the Hyuuga clan somewhere in the ballpark of Neji's level. They might not necessarily have the same Range of View as Neji, or his tactical genuis and spirit, but the fundamentals of the Kaiten and 64/124/1,987,654?! Palms are something they know all too well. Maybe not Empty Palms, but anything Trigrams is well known throughout the clan.

Adversely, not every Uchiha gets the Sharingan. Further than that, I don't know the percentages of one-tomoe, two-tomoe, or three-tomoe Sharingan users within the clan, but one would assume three-tomoe is rare. Although, I will admit the Uchiha were a dominant force in Konoha (they had their own police force).

I'm not getting into eye-logistics, since that's part of the debate, so I'm cutting my post short. Very short....

I'm turning in for tonight, peace.
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Old 02-12-2008, 01:28 AM   #890
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

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Okay, I'll give you time to catch up on what I've said above, if you want me to bring in all potential capabilities that are apparently the norm for the Uchiha. Read it and get back to me.

-edit- Which by the way, you know if you just click remember me when logging in, you don't have to deal with constantly going idle and having to relog back in?
I read it, It is all still pertained to in my recent post or the edited one back before that.

Also, I stay logged in, and do hit "remember me" Wahtever it is, it's most liekly only showing up that way to you because I'm idle liek that. That's what I meant.

Read through the edited one where I said I was posting, then read the most recent one before you get back to me. It'd help.

Also Trey, I've already mentioned each of the things you just said, so thanks, but I've got it. Don't worry, man, I'll do you and the Hyuugas proud.

...tomorrow. Right now, I'm gonna get some sleep. See ya later, master debaters!

lol rhyme.
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Old 02-12-2008, 02:07 AM   #891
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

Wait...what?

I read your edits on that post a few back, and I'm only bringing in Kaiten and the points techniques in because they are specific to Byakugan users. I don't think that's the same as bringing in other outside techniques. Byakugan gives you the better ability to use these techniques, or at least the 64 and 128 point jutsu, due to it's ability. That's not the same as saying, for example, using a katon jutsu is okay to mention because you learned it by copying and thats a Sharingan ability. In Byakugan, it goes had in hand with the Jyuuken style and those moves. I know this because only Byakugan users use them. There are no jutsu or fighting styles that go specifically with Sharingan, so I can see why you're having trouble with this point, but the point is, it comes with the Byakugan arguement. It's like arguing for Sharingan without using genjutsu or copying. doesn't make sense, right? I sure wouldn't think so.

I also don't want a "norm" specific debate. I want a good debate using all the resources. One trying to disprove the other. Try setting boundaries like that and a debate can fall apart. I only brought that up to demonstrate how much in each is variable and subject to the user, however, I don't want all of those things to be completely removed. Bring up genjutsu, I'll counter it and question it. You can do the same for 64 points, but I'll still use it in some cases. I try my best to stick to more normal base abilities, but bring up the advanced ones when necessary. I don't see anything wrong with either of us doing that.
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Old 02-12-2008, 03:55 AM   #892
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

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No, these are specific to the style of the Jyuuken. The Kaiten itself is only an advanced maneuver involving chakra manipulation. Being adept at chakra manipulation from years of Jyuuken use, the Hyuuga will expel chakra from their various pores and then spin like a top, creating a raging whirlwind of violent chakra around them as they spin. This ability is not innate to the Byakugan, and anyone with advanced chakra control would be able to perform it. Similarly, the Hyuuga have not 'taught' this ability to others. It is one that they designed and as such, it is something of a family technique. But it is in no way required to have a Byakugan to perform it. And if it does, show me proof of this matter.
I'll show you proof of that if you show me proof that it's not used by Byakugan users only. If you actually show me manga where someone other than a Byakugan user uses Jyuuken or Kaiten, I will throw in the towel, otherwise, it still stands that, though releasing chakra can be done by anyone to a degree, Byakugan users are the only ones trained to do this through the Jyuuken and the specific abilities enhanced by their Byakugan. FYI: Chakra control in Byakugan is similar to genjutsu in Sharingan: It doesn't grant the user this power, but it makes it a hell of a lot easier to maintain.

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Outside jutsu huh? And here I thought we were debating the abilities granted by the respective doujutsu. Just as the Jyuuken is the style in which the Hyuuga are trained to make use of the Byakugan most effective, Sharingan users copy techniques as that is what makes THEM effective.
Not quite true, in fact, if copying jutsu was what made Sharingan effective, then the series would be focusing on that instead of it's persception and genjutsu Hax on the higher level. Even Kakashi hasn't shown anything by way of copied jutsu since, what? The bell test after the TS? Or was that just filler? Copying is actually a back-burner as far as the series goes. It isn't used to it's full potential, but that potential is based on the user.

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In a way, this actually proves my point as well...think about it for a moment. If the Sharingan is what grants them limitless potential as far as jutsu, then a Sharingan user can go farther than a Hyuuga ever could. Unless your telling me forsaking all other techniques and relying solely on the Hyuuga Jyuuken is greater than an infinite amount of techniques and knowledge...and that's not counting the other capabilities of the Sharingan.
In a Sharingan Vs. Byakugan debate, what good are those techniques if you either
A: Don't have the chakra to use many of them
B: Don't have the elemental affinity or even experience and ability to pull of the jutsu you copied
C: Can't land a hit on the person you're aiming at (especially a problem wih Byakugan users)
Or D: Can't use it bacause you've had your chakra drained. (another problem)

It's based ont he individual's capacity, and there is no way, and no proof, that you can have a truely infinite amount of jutsu (in spite of Orochimaru's goals). And even in the extreme case of Kakashi, we've only seen what? 3, 4 of his copied jutsu? You can't use them all, especially not in the battle. Limitless jutsu =/= Limitless potential. And it doesn't even make jutsu limitless. And I don't understand where you're getting "infinite knowledge" from, which is solely based on the user's capacity of understand and access. So yes, Jyuuken is better than infinite jutsu if you can't use the jutsu due to chakra constraints (not everyone has chakra reserves as high as Naruto, y'know), can't land a hit, are inexperienced with it, or are in the process of having that same Jyuuken drain you of your chakra, rendering all of those precious jutsu useless.

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Now here's the real kicker, and I promise you you're gonna LOVE this. For the most part, the entire basis of argument against the Sharingan is that not all Uchiha have it, or that not all Uchiha advance that far. So let me ask you a question: For those that do have this incredible bloodline, does it make the Sharingan itself weak if those users in particular suck? Does that make the Sharingan itself weak? Because you really can't say this without basing it on the user himself and his/her failure to capitalize on the boons of the Sharingan.
Actually, you can base the Sharingan on the user using it. Sharingan, because it develops, comes with the user. When the user becomes powerful enough, they gain it, then, as the user grows in power, they gain tomoe. After that, you could say the "strength" gained from killing your best friends gives you MS, and the "strength" it takes to rip out your rival/equal's eyes grants you that uber-Sharingan. The entire sharingan level system is based on the user and his/her growth. Therefore, if the user is weak, they won't develop the sharingan or they will have a weaker form of it.

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If this is a debate of which bloodline is stronger, does not infinite potential *I love saying that* override that which has a rooftop and limits on capacity; unless you're telling me the Byakugan provides for an ever expanding growth in power, which as we both know, it does not.
Once again, such use does not mean infinite potential, as it is based solely on the user's own capacity, and as we both know, noone has limitless knowledge, nor limitless resources to create that "limitless potential" in jutsu, especially not when going up against a Byakugan user, who can swiftly cut that down to size using even the most basic Jyuuken. Byakugan, though it does have a limit, which is very high, and at a level wherein most cases there would be no problem defeating any enemy, doesn't need a nonexistant "limitless potential" when it can bring anything that were, unlikely as it is, to reach that higher point, back down. It also has an unmentioned potential. It was explained, I believe in the prelims, that along with stopping chakra points, it could also increase chakra flow by putting a certain amount of chakra in. It may be anime filler but if that's not the case and it was in the manga, then there's an untapped potential there that, though not equal to releasing gates, would easily increase power. Though, because it was never used, I can only infer, but it makes logical since that it works both ways.

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So yes, the ability to copy techniques must be brought into play, even if the techniques themselves are left out. The ability to copy, will still remain in this debate, and as such, so too does the incredible potential it gives the Sharingan.
I never said it wouldn't remain in the debate, I just said, and maintain, due to lack of further counterpoints otherwise, that it would help very little in a distinctly Byakugan Vs. Sharingan fight. Also, for fairness we had previously agreed, or so I thought, not to include outer jutsu because the jutsu used would be, as you probably said, absolute speculation.

And so it may give lots of potential to a Sharingan user, but that is purely based on the user and his ability to copy, use, and control the jutsu, so, even if it was included, you have no way of putting it into the arguement without it getting thrown back in your face.

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edit-
You know, even if you ignore the entire rest of the debate, I think this one post right here sums up how the Sharingan is greater than the Byakugan. And it's no where near as big of a wall of text as the rest of it is. So if nothing else, just read this post you lazy bastards!!
And even if you ignore the entire rest of the debate, this one counter right here sums up how the Sharingan is not greater than the Byakugan. And if you read nothing else but his post, then also read this one!
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Old 02-12-2008, 05:20 AM   #893
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

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Actually no, re-read my post. Having a field up to detect the presence of a foreign object is in no way prediction. And how is 'feeling' the object as it approaches you through chakra in any way related to insight? Because he had the insight to actually put up said field? Well gee...in that case...Naruto has more prediction in him than anyone in the manga...he makes Shadow Clones ahead of time....yea see my point? Such an argument is null and void and does not hold up to defend the Byakugan itself. It merely means the user wasn't a complete idiot and made extra precautions to protect himself.

Now if you want to see REAL prediction, go dig up the page after Sasuke gains the three tomoes and sees a visual image of his opponents position before his opponent is even there. THAT my friend is prediction, and THAT my friend, is all Sharingan baby, not the USER in ANY way, shape, or form.
We obviously interpret prediction in a different way. You see it as knowing the next place an opponent will be, I see it as percieving the next move based on observation of the enhanced sense (sight) and reacting thusly. It's on a simple definition and similar interpretations that we're argueing. We just see the idea of predicting in two different ways that fit our respective doujutsu, and I'm okay with that if you'll accept that my side also has a right answer on this matter.

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Very well, since the one hailed as a prodigy is the norm, then I nominate *drum roll* Uchiha Itachi!! Godlike speed, godlike intelligence, and did I mention an incredibly vast array of techniques? And by the way, since Trey brought it up, and we are going by the prodigies as being the norm, I'll bet damn good money he knows how to make good use of each and every one of em. The Byakugan is incapable of distinguishing between Shadow Clones, as Naruto displayed against Neji. Now let's see what Neji does when he screws the pooch and goes for that Exploding Clone by accident like he did when he thought Naruto's clone was the real one. I'd like to see that great 'Hyuuga insight' save his sorry ass then.

Not only that, but insanely powerful fire jutsu, water jutsu, earth jutsu, godlike genjutsu that will break you down in an instant, long before the Hyuuga has time to break free from it, godlike taijutsu, speed gained from said taijutsu, and did I mention Amaterasu yet? I believe it was brought up not too long ago, but details were given via databook on the technique itself. Though we do not know the manner in which it was performed, we do know that it burns hotter than the sun, and was used while ON THE RUN and at a moments notice by Uchiha Itachi. Yea, bet you didn't think about that.

People have brought up that it might take time to 'charge up' or requires preparation and can probably be dodged. Okay then, tell me how Itachi did it at a moments notice when they were escaping. After seeing that the wall would close up around the window before they could make it, he closed his eyes for a brief moment and immediately after, a massive explosion was heard, resulting in fires powerful enough to burn through the stomach of a fire breathing creature.

Which means he performed it while in motion, and in a hurry. Guess what? That leaves it pretty damn wide open for potential as far as hitting your opponent. I'd like to see Neji, or Hiashi, or any Hyuuga dodge that shit. And did I mention intelligence? With his fast knowledge, and great understanding of many things, both learned and copied via the Sharingan, this Sharingan user can easily be out maneuver and out think his opponent (since your argument of Neji's insight resulted in his intelligence I'll bring in Itachi's intelligence as well).

All of these wonderfully kick ass techniques, provided by the Sharingan and it's copy-cat ways...ain't life grand? You bring in training and years of preparation in the Jyuuken ways, I bring in years of stealing and mastering every technique around you...and then some seeing as the MS grants extra techniques as well. And this is all considered the norm too...because for YEARS, as Itachi said in that oh so recent chapter, the members of the Uchiha family slaughtered their own friends and brothers to gain both the MS and the PMS. So I can only assume that having such abilities was not so 'rare' and was instead 'normal'.
My god, did you even read my post? I address the norm and was reffering to Neji obviously not being the norm! You just countered to something I didn't say, with a giant statement including "evidence" that shouldn't even be included. Ameratsu, we don't knwo how exacly, it's cast, so we can't debate about whether of not someone could dodge it, since it's wide open for discussion! Also, just because Uchiha have done it throughout history does not make it the norm. It jsut means there have been others that have been doing that same thing Itachi's doing. It it were the norm, people wouldn't have come investigating about Itachi's best friend's murder. You went on arant completely devoid of the topic, and as such, should be discredited for this type of comment.

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Manga page please. Where does it show that by closing the eyes, the Byakugan user can avoid genjutsu altogether by simply closing their eyes? And while I do know how you came to such a conclusion, I'd like to see you do it without such big assumptions and facts from the manga since you wanted me to get mean in this debate.
Simple, if you can avoid such eye genjutsu by not looking into the opponent's eyes, as Gai said, then why not avoid it altogether by shutting them, and since the Byakugan user can see through tree's I'm pretty sure eyelids would by no problem.

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I would also like to add, that the Sharingan does grant genjutsu. Not only does it grant the Tsukuyomi at higher levels, which according to Itachi, many people had the MS, but the eye itself has a hypnotic effect as I mentioned before. And while you did argue this, you said it would not work because

"This wouldn't matter in a Byakugan Vs. Sharingan debate, because we aren't including jutsu in the equation."

Which has clearly now been nullified by your own admission in a later post. Similarly, just because they can detect the increase of chakra in the region of the Sharingan eye, does not mean they can avoid it altogether, at least not until you prove to me with manga facts that your former methods are proven to work. So when I see the manga page, I'll agree. Similarly, you mentioned them simply dispelling the technique - but tell me, how do you know they will be able to? By simply saying 'kai' with the Ram seal? As Naruto has proven to us on his run ins with Itachi, if the genjutsu is powerful enough, such meager methods will not work. So by all means, give me an example of a Hyuuga breaking a powerful genjutsu?
----------Wall of Evil Text face rapes HinataFanX for 99999 points of damage!
First, we decided not to use such jutsu as that because the jutsu used could be generalized drastically. I thought this was a mutual agreement. the only jutus I focused on were ones very specific to Byakugan user that entailed the use of the abilities given by Byakugan and the training and fighting style that incorperates it. Also, see my above statement for those genjutsu avoidances. Also, Naruto has very little chakra control compared to even a typical Byakugan user. If they did the exact same thing, it would ahve a different result than Naruto because they could stop chakra flow so tactically as to release the genjutsu much more easily.
Oh snap, what just happened? Mirror of Logic reflects text, 0 damage done. Counter "128 point"'s your ass. Don't play the RPG game with me.
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Old 02-12-2008, 05:21 AM   #894
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

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As for training? Pfbt, Didn't you know? It's the universal shortcut to training. It makes things go infinitely faster when you can copy the technique, break it down, and comprehend it all by just seeing it done once now doesn't it? Sharingan training? HAH, The Sharingan allows the Uchiha to grow in power 100x faster than those wimpy little Hyuuga who must train from the age of three as you so eloquently put it for me. Who needs to train at such a young age when as soon as they are older and gain the Sharingan, they just advance at such an incredible pace?
Ah, see here, you are argueing agaisnt my counter against the point you made about the Uchiha's training of those with Sharingan, so in essense, you just proved the point I made, that the actual Uchiha clan does little in training the ones with Sharingan. Sharingan users train on their own, and, as you so elequently put it for me, learn based on jutsu's copied. You forget, they must still train with these jutsu. They don't just see it once and can do it automatically. They have to get it right or it is much weaker than the original. This doesn't account for their elemental affinities. If you copy 900 Suiton jutsu and are specifically Katon, it doesn't make much of a point does it? If the user isn't strong enough, neither is the Sharingan, as it advances based on the user's strength, or the jutsu's they perform. You also make it sound as though each is such an obvious genius. That's obviously not the case, and it would be incredibly stupid to say that every person who gets Sharingan is a genius who will immediately become super powered in a short time because of it.

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And all of these gifts granted by the Sharingan as opposed to what? Years and years of training from the age of three in a style of Taijutsu, forsaking all else and making yourself an extremely weak ranged fighter? And don't even try to compare the Kaiten to a long range attack...Mid range? Yea, but tell me, what are you gonna do? Spam those suckers all day long? Hell, just 1-2 of those things had Neji huffing and puffing. And while I imagine after the time-skip he could get a few more off, would they even make a difference at this point? As I have shown with Sasuke, the Hyuuga perception has nothing on the Sharingan. It would see the spin before it began from the images of where the opponent will be next, and thus make it easily avoidable, easily getting out of it's already limited range.
The onyl truly long range based fighter that any byakugan user would have trouble with is someone like Kidoumaru. Any single long range fighter would be easily located, and a Sharingan long range fighter is almost an oxymoron in this case, as they can't do taijtusu long range, genjutsu is counterable, as previously stated, and we aren't supplying specifics of ninjutsus to use due to generalization. In fact neither the Byakugan nor the Sharingan work well long-range. So, when Sharingan moves in close enough to use it's moves, it'd be mid-range or close range, which is in range of Kaiten, and the points jutsus, if we assume it's a more advanced fighter or an upper main branch member possibly. They would see the spin, maybe, but only eyes up to par with Sasuke would be able to see the chakra swirling around them, which would not provide sufficient time to get out of the way for anyone without that ability. Though obviously, after seeing it once, they would be more wary of it. But it still remains, the Sharingan would be closer to mid-range, and a bit more hands-on than long-range users, who hide and use mostly projectile attacks.

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And do you know what it all boils down to? The sheer raw potential of the Sharingan leads it to infinite heights, towering above the Byakugan and the famed Jyuuken the Hyuuga drown themselves in, forsaking all else aside from that graceful Taijutsu style. The potential to learn, and excel in all fields, the raw diversity it gives, and the raw abilities it grants, hell even the superior techniques that it actually gives at higher levels...all of it...and you would dare to claim the Byakugan it's equal? Let's see a Hyuuga ever reach the heights of Madara, or Itachi, or that which Sasuke will soon attain. That is it's greatness, it's legacy, it's power. The power to raise your capacity to new heights and greatness.

Wall of Evil Text casts Meteor. Meteor crits HinataFanX for 99999 damage x 100!
HinataFanX dies!

----
*SMFox1987 passes out from exhaustion*
Exactly, you base the sharingan's strength on it's potential. If you gave me anything in the manga, I'd tell you it had infinite potential. Hell, Byakugan has it too if you look close enough. The ability to shut off chakra, cause internal damage, gain pinpoint chakra control, see chakra, release it as what still stands as an absolute defense. Nothing has penetrated the Kaiten while in full spin. Only Naruto after one turn and Kidoumaru when it's over. It could be made to have infinite potential, but it really doesn't, and neither does the Sharingan. In that style, Jyuuken, Byakugan users gain those things I mentioned. What's the potential there? Tons of jutsu, lots of ability to maintain levels of chakra, they coudl ebcome master genjutsu users, and ninjutsu gives them tons of possibility. They'd just have to go out and learn it. See, speaking on potential doesn't work, because if it did, everythign woudl have limitless potential in some way. And through it all, yes, I do claim the Byakugan to be equal, and greater than, the Sharingan. It's a limit you're born with, train with, and learn with your whole life, learnign thigns others your age might barely have or comprehend, into adult years as an incredible fighter, using my awesome ability to beat enemies. Returning to a broken, but successful and powerful clan. And then, there's the Uchiha. You're born not even knowing if you'll attain your bithright, and even then, you are forced to push mroe and more, to achieve more power, apower that will corrupt you. You learn of your clans secrets. The things you have to go through to reach a power that can match or overpower a Hyuuga. Kill, live to grow stronger, kill your best friend, and then your equal, in the hopes of maintaining a cursed power that won't go away, and if unseccessful, will leave you crawling in darkness, below the scum of the earth, in darkness and despair for the things you've done, crimes you've commited, all for a power that may or may not come to you? It's not worth it! The better of the two is clear. Byakugan is the better doujutsu.

Text becomes a Counter Crystal
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Old 02-12-2008, 09:23 AM   #895
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

you children are crazy...

crazy ya hear me?

*goes to comfort namikaze for having to read this*
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Old 02-12-2008, 10:11 AM   #896
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

actually what you guys are doing here is the tsukyomi itself. 72 hours of torture :P

XD I'll be in a one month coma till tsunade comes, if you don't mind, so please excuse me
*coma no jutsu*
XD
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Old 02-12-2008, 10:23 AM   #897
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

Lmao, theres no way in hell I'm going to read all of that hahaha good luck namikaze. Sharingan vs Byakugan seems to a dull subject anyways. Hinatafan is keeping up as much as he/she can good job, don't worry SMFox will start to cry sooner or later. (Kidding, KIDDING, KIDDING XD)
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I don't envy your job judges lmao. "Wall-of-china-Text-no-jutsu" should be a forbidden technique.
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Old 02-12-2008, 10:49 AM   #898
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

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Originally Posted by Distortion View Post
Lmao, theres no way in hell I'm going to read all of that hahaha good luck namikaze. Sharingan vs Byakugan seems to a dull subject anyways. Hinatafan is keeping up as much as he/she can good job, don't worry SMFox will start to cry sooner or later. (Kidding, KIDDING, KIDDING XD)
----------------------------------------

I don't envy your job judges lmao. "Wall-of-china-Text-no-jutsu" should be a forbidden technique.
lol distortion I love your avi. Why was naruto holding a fish in the other hand coz I don't remember the episode?

and I have a feeling nami is not going to read that. I'm glad I'm no co-owner haha.

edit: my post feels rude... *glares at her own post with killer instinct*

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Old 02-12-2008, 11:29 AM   #899
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

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lol distortion I love your avi. Why was naruto holding a fish in the other hand coz I don't remember the episode?

and I have a feeling nami is not going to read that. I'm glad I'm no co-owner haha.

edit: my post feels rude... *glares at her own post with killer instinct*

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Liuaishan that's from the frist naruto movie he was trying to get the princess' authorgraph. What he's holding is a pen lol, not a fish XD. (I like the word fish, its sounds funny XD)

----------------------------------------------------------

There needs to be more than one judge for situations like these, Mikey is absent a lot lately, as is Shrike. Maybe that other girl Mystik could do it. XD
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Old 02-12-2008, 12:21 PM   #900
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

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Liuaishan that's from the frist naruto movie he was trying to get the princess' authorgraph. What he's holding is a pen lol, not a fish XD. (I like the word fish, its sounds funny XD)
damn, how could I forget that.
Well if it was upside down I would have remembered it lol :P
and yah, "fish" sounds funny.

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Well, since I shortened my debate a great deal, I'm sure even Mystik wouldn't be too upset with reading it.
I think Mystik likes reading, so it's no tsukyomi for her, it's nami that I worry about. He'll get a one hit ko when he visits the club again. XD
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