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Old 02-12-2008, 04:35 PM   #901
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

its going to take forever to read all these post.. and im getting sick also.. =( am i allowed to call debates cause im not sure if i am... =/
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Old 02-12-2008, 05:06 PM   #902
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

I think as long as you're co-owner you can do anything you want with the club if the boss is not around :P :P :P
kidding
*ties mikey up and throws him in the basement*. There, now co-owners are allowed to do anything
paaaartyyy :P ahem
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Old 02-12-2008, 05:10 PM   #903
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

Yo wtf did i unleash on myself yo this shit is to much wtf yo really try o keep it to a minimum please,but really guys i read fast as fuk these texts are shit play lol.
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Old 02-12-2008, 05:17 PM   #904
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

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I think as long as you're co-owner you can do anything you want with the club if the boss is not around :P :P :P
kidding
*ties mikey up and throws him in the basement*. There, now co-owners are allowed to do anything
paaaartyyy :P ahem
that could be dangerous.. damn i cant even type right T_T.... Nami call it or something.. i can barely see straight =(
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Old 02-12-2008, 05:31 PM   #905
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

thing is hinatafan probably didn't read any of the complains around here, and will show up with a 4 pages wall of text next time he logs in XD
SMFox is alerted already but dunno about hinatafan.

I hope I don't have a cursed mouth XP
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Old 02-12-2008, 05:32 PM   #906
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

well i hope not.. he was in the thread earlier when this was talked about.. but i guess we shall see.. he needs to hurry though so this debate can end
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Old 02-12-2008, 05:36 PM   #907
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

I have a feeling a huge post comes in the next few minutes
*sees hinatafan in the list of people currently in the thread*
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Old 02-12-2008, 06:37 PM   #908
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

ok then i guess case is closed
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Old 02-12-2008, 06:37 PM   #909
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

I made three posts in response to your two, and I didn't ahve enough space in two. I see you made two full posts as well, so what's your point?
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Similarly, if you will look even farther beyond that, you will see that Neji is particularly gifted, and that normally such feats are not possible. The biggest thing you hit me with, was that the power of the Sharingan is based on the user, and I find that funny, since is the Byakugan not the same. Doesn't this statement from Hiashi pretty much say that not all Hyuga are equal? Similarly to the Sharingan, the Byakugan relies on the capabilities of the one using it. Case in point- Hyuga Hinata, the poster child for the Hyuuga. From the earliest of age when she was being trained, she still completely sucked. If it didn't rely on the user, then tell me why Hinata sucked so much? And don't say 'confidence' because that's speculation in and of itself. Even if she were more confident, and aggressive, as Neji showed, and as some of you have been so kind to point out in recent threads, the will to stand back up doesn't mean anything more than you're ready to get knocked on your ass again. That confidence boost didn't do her a damn bit of good as far as her abilities go against Neji now did it? So no, the Byakugan, and the training does not effect all Hyuga equally, and you will not always get results such as Neji...as Hyuga Hiashi has so kindly pointed on manga pages 101: 8-13 In the end: they are just as reliant on the user's own strength to make the Byakugan strong as the Sharingan, if not more so.
Hinata did not suck. Don't take this as a bias. She got knocked back and lost because Neji was more advanced in the use of the same techniques. the point I'm making is that the abilities you're usign on the Byakugan aren't guaranteed, and depend so mch ont he user's ability. With Byakugan, certain abilities, due to the way they are taught and trained to use it within their clan, are guaranteed to happen, for example, the use of chakra to cause internal damage, or even, to an extent, the precise chakra control. The strength of these may depened on the user, but as as far as we know, each Byakugan user has them to some extent, whereas jutsuscopied, genjutsu, and speed are all variants that aren't guaranteed in a Sharingan user as they don't have the same abilities of gaining the Sharingan's advantages through clan-based training.
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Not only was that entire statement about the development of the sharingan pulled from your ass, it has no backing within the manga, and is nothing more than pure assumption on your part. And even then, it still falls through. If it was based on the physical strength of the user alone...how would just stabbing your best friend in the heart when he's not looking prove that you are physically capable? It wouldn't would it...it would have no physical bearings on you what so ever, which means it must be the mentality of it. But that in itself is also an assumption, it just has a helluva lot more logical backing than what you said and I will not go into it at this time. And if you think you are right and would like to prove that your method is exactly how the Sharingan develops, by all means please provide a manga page.
It wasn't just pulled out of my ass. Each time Sasuke gained a new boost in his sharignan, it was during a major fight, Haku, Orochimaru (I believe), and against Naruto. Now, you can tell me I'm wrong about the MS, but you said it yourself, mentality. It may just be my insight, but the series supports that large milestones and will to gain the power is what results in the Sharingan levelling up. And you can't honestly tell me that it wouldn't be phycologically, and even physically demanding to get you to kill your best friend. Can you say you'd kill your best friend for that? I doubt it. The Naruto series may be off on some points, but the characters still have morals, andf it would be a huge leap to kill a best friend, and likewise, a sibling. You can tell me gaining MS and PMS is different, but the base sharingan is clearly shown to be based on upgrades by the user. And I never said specifically physical strangth
Quote:
Now, I thought this was about the Sharingan and the Byakugan...not about how the Uchiha potentially gained morals suddenly. As such, their history has shown a potentially large number of these advanced users who slaughtered friends and family alike for power. If context is to be believed, this bloodied history was commonplace for the Uchiha in past times. As Itachi said "many sacrifices piled up over the course of the clans history." Also take note, that in the next page he also mentions that Madara "Raised the strongest shinobi in the world." before forming the alliance with the Senju clan and founding Konoha.
So yes, the MS was commonplace, and while the PMS itself might have been lessened due to the 'new light' not always working, the only advantages to the PMS over the MS that we know of is the loss of eventual blindness.
So yea, in the past, there were quite a few 'Itachi's' running around while Madara was running the show.
Ah, you've used this against me, so now I'll say it to you. That's a huge assumption. The morals do matter, as if it had been common and the norm, then there would be no repercussions for it, and there would be more than Itachi at the time using MS, which, as far as we know, wasn't true. We also know that so far, only Madara ever gained PMS. It wasn't successful when others tried killing their siblings. He never mentioned any other PMS users, so as far as we know, Madara gained it, and noone else. Also, he said that for centuries, Uchihas have gone through the ordeals to achieve these, but nowhere does he say how many, or at any specific time, there were many MS users. He also said that before Madara and his brother, noone had MS, and he also never mentions that Madara taught others to gain MS. That is one of the bigger assumptions you've made so far. He does, however, say that the others acknowledged Madara and his brother as their leaders, because MS had never been achieved. Why then would Madara train others to match his power, when he had gained control of the clan with it? That has less backing than any other statement here, and is totally based on assumption.
Quote:
And for the record, I wasn't ranting, I was bringing up the countless capabilities of the Sharingan. You keep trying to discredit the ability to copy everything. When such a thing grants quite the bit of potential. And if having a vast and wide array of techniques does not come in handy, than nothing does. You said having 1000+ jutsus would be a rare case, but I find that unusual. For Kakashi, who has only had the Sharingan for what? Fifteen years? And only one at that might I add, how can you logically conclude that those who are natural born Uchiha, with the MS no less, could not equally achieve such a feat?
I can't prove that all those MS users were capable of that many techniques, but you can't disprove it either. Nor can you prove that Kakashi's great number of copied techniques is not the norm amongst the Uchiha of that past time either. And during such a war-torn time, I imagine there were a great many techniques to behold and copy.
But what about now, in amuch less war-torn time. the only real war right now is with akatsuki. The number of jutsus copied is based on the user's experiences, also, as I can't disprove it, but likewise, you can't prove it, that arguement is null. If there's no backing behind anyone other than Kakashi using it to copy 1000+ jutsu, which was the main ability he ever used it for, considering his nickname, the Copy Ninja, and the only arguement is that he's not an Uchiha, and only has one, then it's very useless a statement. He also gained a completely different MS without killing his best friend. Kakashi is far from what you'd call a "normal" sharingan user, so bringing up his acomplishments provides very little, as we knwo the primary Sharingan users have yet to be shown to have achieved the same acomplishments as him. and, as I said, if neither of us could prove or disprove it, the arguement is essentially null anyway.

1. So I can't bring up the Uchiha without Sharingan, or that don't develop it fully, but you can bring up Byakugan users that don't learn the Byakugan specific techniques? I don't think so. Hypocrisy is a bitch.
2. I was stating that potential-based arguements can't work because of that. thinka bout it, someone who trains in Jyuuken gains incredible chakra control, such that would be very helpful in learnign ninjutsu or genjutsu. It doesn't mean they will, jsut as it doesn't mean a Sharingan user would use their potential-based abilities. You can't argue based on potential because there's too much speculation.
3. What good are jutsu if you, the user, can't perform them properly, don't have chakra for it, or are having your chakra drained by the Byakugan user? You're speculating about the capability of the user, which can vary wildly, and as such is not feasible.

On that side note, Neji was weakened incredibly at the time, and had taken a backblast from the previous impact. When Naruto had hit him before, he blocked it with chakra, then proceeded to use Kaiten. The simple chakra control, which is common to Byakugan users, could be manipulated in this way, as they already know how to expel chakra.

More to come...
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Old 02-12-2008, 06:40 PM   #910
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

OMG NO its not done =(
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Old 02-12-2008, 06:48 PM   #911
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

I read everyting on page 71, so I'll try to bare minimum it, but no promises.
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Old 02-12-2008, 06:50 PM   #912
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

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I read everyting on page 71, so I'll try to bare minimum it, but no promises.

I called Mikey on the phone and he said you both lose for using the forbidden technique Wall-of-china-Text-no-jutsu / jk
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Old 02-12-2008, 07:12 PM   #913
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

yeah this debate ends tonight 12:00 am finished closed finito.
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Old 02-12-2008, 07:15 PM   #914
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

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I called Mikey on the phone and he said you both lose for using the forbidden technique Wall-of-china-Text-no-jutsu / jk
lol

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yeah this debate ends tonight 12:00 am finished closed finito.
i agree.. damn i didnt know this type of debate could go on so damn long lol
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Old 02-12-2008, 07:21 PM   #915
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Re: The Naruto Debating FC

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You said
"It's a limit you're born with, train with, and learn with your whole life, learnign thigns others your age might barely have or comprehend"

Again, I'd like to point out the infinitely faster style of learning provided by the Sharingan. Spend your whole life learning something? Or learn it in a few years!
Sharingan cannot use the style of a Byakugan user. Case and point.

Quote:
Secondly, that part about having to push more and more to gain power, is pretty much based on your previous assumptions about the manner in which the Sharingan develops in it's user, which of course, you could not give any evidence of, and of course, I gave evidence to the contrary on already.

Awww, about that last part, while I'm sure the Uchiha clan are touched by your concern, this is not a moral debate. It is a debate of which is stronger/better overall, the Byakugan or the Sharingan.
For evidence of that "previous assumption, see my previous post, it demonstrates the way strength and mentality plays into the gaining of Sharingan's levels. It also serves to show that Sharingan is distinctly based on the user's own development, and as that is a variable, Sharingan is not, in fact, going to be stronger, as it's base skills are matched and countered by a byakugan user.
And morals play a big part in also showing the downfalls of achieving that power, and the rare possibility of you ever even gaining it. The morals of the clan also demonstrated how MS was not the norm, which discounts many of your previous assumptions of such.

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Hell, that brings me to something funny that I've been thinking about...did you know that if you trained an Uchiha like a Hyuuga, they'd be even better as far as fighters go then the Hyuuga?

While it's true, they cannot see tenketsu, they can see chakra just fine. And that is what you said helps them to refine their chakra control no? So an Uchiha is just as capable as learning chakra control as the Byakugan. They may not be able to shut down tenketsu effectively, because they cannot see those points, but such points can also be memorized. Just like a medic nin will memorize the body, and be able to hit specific tiny little key points on your body with chakra to seriously maim or disable you. *Kabuto or Tsunade anyone?* And with their rate of learning, the Sharingan would learn it even faster.

On top of that, unlike the Byakugan, as I said earlier, they can learn all those other fields as well, something the Byakugan can't do, because they simply can't learn as fast as the Sharingan...funny isn't it? The Jyuuken itself, and all it's benefits, can work in favor of the Sharingan just as much as the Hyuuga. You just trade off the all seeing vision for the speed learning and a great deal more combat prowess.
Haha. Wow. Bullshit, this is. They'd be knowwhere near as better fighters due to what you said, the lack of seeing tenketsu. The only way for them to attain such a refined sense of chakra control is having the pinpoint sight the Byakugan give them, along with that particular training. The ability to see chakra is, one, ony a general and basic sight, and has only been demonstrated by Sasuke thus far. You can't tell me that every Sharingan user can see chakra because Sasuke can now, when so far as we know, Itachi can't even do it.

Medical jutsu is a specific style which is completely separate from this debate, so it can't be brought in to be used as an example. It, too, is a specific and hard training course. Tsunade herself said it takes certain abilities to become a medical ninja, so unless a Sharingan user has those capabilities, their quick learning would do them little to no good whatsoever. Likewise, this same stlye of chakra control is specific to those who have Byakugan and are able to perform it. The ability to learn it quickly would matter less considering they don't have the actual proven means by which to do it, unless thaty are that rare case like Sasuke, who can see chakra and have good chakra control. Once again, these are not common among all Sharingan users, so this statenment can't be included.

Quote:
Oh and on a side note, limitless jutsu may not be all that great, but it makes a pretty damn big difference or else Kakashi wouldn't be so feared. And I'd also like to add, that while the Chakra of the Sharingan user might not be infinite, neither is the chakra of the Hyuuga. They can't keep up the super whirl forever.

And even then, if the Sharingan user in question has trained in the Jyuuken something you were so kind enough to agree with would be possible (since you base it on chakra sight), would it do them any good? I don't think the Byakugan can reverse the position and copy 1000+ jutsu with their Jyuuken, whereas the Sharingan, can be trained in the Jyuuken, gain all those precious abilities, and still retain the 1000+ jutsu capability.
Ah, but Hyuuga have higher chakra control, allowign them to expend chakra at a much slower rate.

Also, the type of traing with Jyuuken is not only total bunk as already stated, but for a Sharingan user to train in Jyuuken in that amnner, they wouldn't just have to hav copied the taijutsu, but also the entire ability of using the chakra and manipulating it in the same way a Byakugan user does, while using it in offense to the same destructive force. Not only is it improbable in that way, but the training methods are exclusive to the Hyuuga and are very secretive.

Don't forget, the Hyuuga lived in the same village with the Uchiha, and they still kept their style very discreet. It was centered around other clans not getting their hands on the bloodline limit. That's the entire meaning behind the main and branch families. Something sercured that much and built into a style's abilities wouldn't be copied as easily as you make it out to be.

Maybe more, but this disproves the role-reversal, and completely removes it fromt he arguement, so there should be very little more to come aside from my final statement.
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