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Old 04-18-2005, 06:56 PM   #1
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Arms sales to Taiwan - showing our true hand?

It’s been plastered all over the news - China wants Taiwan back, and the U.S. is refusing to take a stand to help Taiwan.

Well, that’s technically true…but is it really?

Going over a list of arms sales over the last few years, I noticed something rather interesting. In late 2002, the U.S. sold Taiwan four Kidd-class guided missile cruisers, and a stock of nearly three hundred missiles. In addition, they threw in software for systems specifically used as anti-submarine warfare packages, all for a mere 1.2 million extra.

Prior to that, the U.S. also beefed up Taiwan’s navy some more with over fifty amphibious assault ships, a load of Harpoon missiles, seven Knox-class frigates, several tank landing craft, over a hundred torpedoes, and a host of parts to soup up whatever navy they have.

How much did Taiwan spend over the course of 7 years upgrading their navy? Over 1.5 billion U.S. dollars. Seem like a big amount? Not for as much materiel as they got.

But what’s in a Navy? One of the real shows was the amount of materiel they’ve purchased for land-based aerial defenses and fighter planes. Mind you, Taiwan isn’t that big of an island. So, with that in mind, let’s see how much Taiwan has bought from the U.S. alone.

For nearly two billion dollars, they got themselves a pair of ultra high frequency long range early warning radar systems. They also upgraded their fighter radars, purchased spare parts and a lot of missiles for those fighters, spare engines for Chinook helicopters, some Chinooks themselves, an incredible amount of Stinger Air Defense missiles, as well as launchers, navigation and targeting pods for F-16’s, loads of 2.75” Hydra rockets, and a total of 34 Kiowa Warrior and Super Cobra attack and recon helicopters.

How much did this grand load cost? Roughly 6.1 billion dollars. 6.1 billion dollars. Add that to their navy, and the large number of artillery and anti-tank weapons they’ve bought, and we’ve gotten some eight billion dollars from Taiwan, all for weapons we deemed were surplus.

You know, here’s a side thought - if Bush just got some 81 billion to spend on warmaking, to get our boys everything they need, then why did we make such a paltry amount selling off weapons that we can use? Some of these sales were only a year or two ago. All of the sales that I mentioned are from 97-04. We’ve been at war for how long, and yet we’re still selling off weapons that our own troops need? Anyways…

How is China reacting to all of this? We say that we’re keeping neutral, and yet we’re selling eight billion dollars worth of materiel to Taiwan, and are selling nothing to China. Yeah, Taiwan’s looking to get some teeth, and being the capitalists we are, we’re ready to jump at the chance…but look at it this way.

Taiwan now has enough of an air force, and enough of a navy, to hold China at a standoff for perhaps a week, depending on how much the Chinese throw at them on the first wave. Taiwan’s navy numbers in about one hundred and seven ships, ranging from a few destroyers, a decent number of frigates, some subs, fast missile boats, and some amphibious ships.

China, on the other hand, can throw nearly two hundred vessels into the battle, as well as 730 naval aviation planes, ranging from bombers to fighters to light attack and recon jets. This means that China can, with a long enough mobilization period, overwhelm Taiwan with fair ease.

But take a look at one of Taiwan’s earlier purchases. They bought a pair of very expensive, but very powerful, early warning radar systems. These radars would show bombers, fighters, or ships coming over from a long ways out, giving Taiwan enough time to call for aid to our troops stationed in South Korea, or Japan.

So, is the U.S. just looking to make money hand over fist, or are we tacitly supporting Taiwan over China, even at the risk of going to war with an enemy that would take years and countless lives to subdue?
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Old 04-18-2005, 07:18 PM   #2
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wOw i knew our USA sucked but to this degree *sighs*
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Old 04-18-2005, 07:42 PM   #3
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I hate Bush. I knew something like this would happen.
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Old 04-21-2005, 01:01 PM   #4
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the US has been looking for an excuse to bomb China for a while, prolly because they dont have a democratic gov't like us? Im not saying communism is great, but if it works for them, we should just leave them alone. Thas wat the US's problem is, we stick our nose in everything
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Old 04-21-2005, 03:43 PM   #5
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the u.s. did similar things in the middle-east, not a big surprise. I wonder where Iraqi weapons came from... hrmmmm....
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Old 04-21-2005, 09:02 PM   #6
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Well alot of those sales were made under clinton, so we can't blame only bush. Also some were sold because we now have even better stuff. Also, America doesn't really need those things, unless bush keeps invading country after country. There is also another way to look at it. If Taiwan posed more aof a threat, prehaps war could be avoided all together. No body want's a war with China, although if China decided to invade another country (esp Taiwan since as far as I know they never did anything wrong) I suspect that most of thw world would support Taiwan. Truthfully I don't China would risk it.
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Old 05-02-2005, 08:54 PM   #7
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whatever dudes, taiwan deserves its independence. it's been fricking seperated from china for such a long time already..
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Old 05-08-2005, 12:45 AM   #8
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Well alot of those sales were made under clinton, so we can't blame only bush. Also some were sold because we now have even better stuff. Also, America doesn't really need those things, unless bush keeps invading country after country. There is also another way to look at it. If Taiwan posed more aof a threat, prehaps war could be avoided all together. No body want's a war with China, although if China decided to invade another country (esp Taiwan since as far as I know they never did anything wrong) I suspect that most of thw world would support Taiwan. Truthfully I don't China would risk it.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Try again. Clinton sold them arms but this story is so important today because we still CONTINUE to do it and have only been INCREASING the number of weapons we're sending them. This is a Bush problem... Hence the whole irony in the situtation.

Because we don't need those weapons, we should feed the fires of two nations that could potentially throw weapons of mass destruction at one another? Yeah. Sounds logical.

And it is CHINA that wants the war with Taiwan. Not the other way around. They want Taiwan back.
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Old 05-08-2005, 01:04 AM   #9
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haha well i find it funny that the chinese hav always been sayin that taiwan was a part of them.....
that taiwan was nv independant and now they want taiwan back......how does that work....
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Old 05-08-2005, 07:44 AM   #10
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i hate having these dicustion about china and taiwan, but thnx guys for stand up for taiwan...for those who doesn't know, China has bn threatening taiwan for a long time now, eg they force us(the citizens) to vote for a particular party during election by declaring war, that is jus so unfair...personally i would luv to hav a war wit china and get it over and done wit

bt i'v never knew that taiwan spent so much money on weapons and defence systems
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Old 05-08-2005, 03:35 PM   #11
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Taiwan technically HAS never left China. The original deal in their "parting" was that Taiwan could never officially declare independence.

But truth be told: Taiwan could not win a war with China. Ever. No matter how many weapons they get from the US, China would win. They have far superior fleets and aircraft (and in far greater numbers). They have nuclear weapons. They have the option to literally arm over 5 million people in less than a month. Taiwan would be wiped from the face of the earth.
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Old 05-08-2005, 04:20 PM   #12
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First of all I don't see how givving Taiwan weapons would make war more likely to happen. Also Taiwan is and should be independent of china, that would be like england asking to have America back, not going to happen. Also you say that china would beat Taiwan. Well if it was just China and Taiwan that is true, no question, although I doubt that would be the case. I mean if the US is givving Taiwan weapons they obviously have out backing. I think the war would spread. Also I don't see what China could really gain by getting Taiwan back, they should just leave them alone. I personally don't think that war is going to happen. Also ~*ChizurU千鶴*~ do you live in Taiwan? Just curious, cause i doubt that most people there would want a war, especially with china.
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Old 05-08-2005, 08:36 PM   #13
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Why? Because Taiwan will feel like they have the ability to fight back. Other than that? It won't make war more likely. However, I don't believe I said it would. The real point is: Why are we just giving Taiwan all this cash? We're not getting much back. In fact, we get practically nothing back. So why are we aggrevating China like this? What's the point of it?

It isn't anything like the England/American relationship. We fought 2 wars to remain separate from them. Taiwan didn't and only left a little while ago under much secrecy. They also never officially LEFT. Furthermore, most of China's government disagreed with the move anyway.

I don't think anyone else would get involved. Both countries might ask for help, but China is a member of the UN. For about a week or two, they'd fight and China might possibly win... Meanwhile, the UN would be trying to solve the problem (poorly). It'd be like the 7 day war between Israel and the Palestinian countries.

What would China GAIN from getting back Taiwan? Pride, huge amounts of cash, and a good fishing industry.
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Old 05-08-2005, 09:43 PM   #14
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eh, ida know I still thing it seems unlikely. The desire of givving Taiwan weapons may be to avoid war, and who knows maybe it's because of communism. I don't think China's position in the UN would help them (also is Taiwan in the UN?). But I mean, the truth is that currently they are free, and of course china disagreed with them leaving england disagreed too, that is why they were shooting us.

I mean, i guess if you simplify it, whether or not china would win would depend on if others would help Taiwan. And because I believe that others would I think think China would start the war to begin with. I guess we will just have to wait and see.
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Old 05-10-2005, 09:45 PM   #15
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We're not getting anything back, yet we're giving them shit loads of weapons. To tell the truth, I believe you hit the nail on the head: Communism. ...But hey, nobody seems to know the real reason behind it.

(Taiwan is NOT in the UN. They have been barred from entering by the Chinese government.) ...And technically, no. They are NOT free. They have yet to declare independence. I thought I mentioned that several times already.


But now we're off from the topic of this debate: Is it right for the US to provide weapons to another country that is potentially dangerous and has been known to do some fairly ruthless and terrible things? To me, it sounds quite a bit like how we gave (you guessed it) Osama bin Laden all those weapons in hopes that they'd strike out against Russia...
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