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Old 05-25-2008, 07:04 AM   #1
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Itachi v.s. Jiraya argument needs to come to an end

This argument needs to be put to rest.

Itachi the child prodigy, at a mere age of 11 years old destroyed Orochimaru with but a kunai and genjutsu. In fact, Itachi let the poor sucker live to tell the tale.
Itachi at 11 years old pawned Deidara. Itachi at 11 years of age was a member of Akatsuki. Itachi at the age of 11-13 threatened the elders of the village for the safety of Sasuke.

In fact Sandaime even says - " A shinobi that can take on Orochimaru does not exist in this village at this moment " - after this quote Itachi appears in Konoha. Clearly Sandaime was thinking of Itachi. Itachi >>>>>>>>>> Orochimaru. There is no doubt about this. If you deny this then you are ignorant and biased.

You say Itachi was not trying to kill Orochimaru while you can say the same the other way around. Itachi was playing Orochimaru like a fool. Itachi did not even kill him in the end.

Now, we've been through Itachi's character and background story. Clearly, his initial interest in coming to Konoha was to check on the safety of his younger brother and to warn the elders that he still lives to protect Sasuke.

Itachi never wanted any harm done to Konoha's nins. You should be able to see that Itachi is playing around with the elite jounin of konoha.

In fact, the only reason he even took out the MS was to show Kakashi the power of a true Uchiha - this shows pride not weakness. Itachi did not need to end the fight so quickly using MS... 2 - 3 moves of his ninjutsu or 1 move of his genjutsu would have done it, kakashi would have been dead. Another point, "Why didn't he kill me... he could have if he wanted to..." Itachi did NOT even kill Kakashi under tsukyomi.

And i even see people saying Kakashi and Itachi are on the same league. Bitch, please.
If Kakashi can't take Kakuzu 1 on 1 and is on par with Hidan than he has no chance in hell against Itachi who can potentially take both Kakuzu and Hidan together.

Now i am a fan but i am basing all this information on true manga facts, i am not biased. I am not saying that Itachi is the stronger or whatever. In fact, he admitted that if he had EMS he could defeat Madara. Therefore, we can say that the only thing dictating the power levels of Madara from Itachi is the EMS Madara has.

Now for the Jiraya debate.

NOw i ask you one question. ...

In a fight of Itachi against Orochimaru and Tsunade... who would win?
Being the prodigy and the destroyer of a whole clan of elite level ninja, Itachi with his unimaginable speed wins. Even the sharingan is unable to catch his speed, his jutsu speed included.

Itachi who pawns Orochimaru in 2 panels moves onto the weaker Tsunade. THis is no match. Itachi wins.

Now what's to say that he can't take on the whole sannin crew?
This is not a farfetched claim since many have been said to be able to do so.

Itachi was given the position of Minato, in fact the very throne Itachi was sitting on symbolized Minato's position in the fight against Kyuubi.
Itachi may very well be > = to Minato who is undoubtedly > Jiraya.

Itachi being the hero of Konoha would never harm the toad sannin who lives by the live of fire.

Itachi's whole life is a lie. I am willing to bet this was one of the many lies Itachi pulled with Kisame to get out of the situation and go somewhere peaceful and rest or w/e,,,

It's not something new that Itachi lies and mostly with Kisame. Kisame even questions why he has to avoid the fight. Kisame clearly knows what Itachi is capable of. In fact, i'm sure Itachi has kicked Kisame's ass at one time.

Itachi had no intention in capturing Naruto, he never did. He came, he saw, he conquered. Too bad, Gai was a second away from joining the Jiraya vs Itachi/Kisame duel. Who knows how many anbu were following GAI....

Itachi did the smart thing. He knew Kisame would not listen if he said anything else...

Itachi is > sannin.

THANK YOU

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Old 05-25-2008, 08:05 AM   #2
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Re: Itachi v.s. Jiraya argument needs to come to an end

Nahhh... Jiraiya was a far greater shinobi than Itachi was..
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Old 05-25-2008, 08:08 AM   #3
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Re: Itachi v.s. Jiraya argument needs to come to an end

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Nahhh... Jiraiya was a far greater shinobi than Itachi was..
Well, then clearly you need to read the latest chapters in which it gives that Itachi has always been alive to protect Konoha and Sasuke.
There would be no reason for Itachi to even fight Jiraya who is all about the will of fire. Itachi has always been a liar, his whole life has been a lie, a genjutsu.

Itachi >>> Jiraya//
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Old 05-25-2008, 08:15 AM   #4
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Re: Itachi v.s. Jiraya argument needs to come to an end

Off course there hasnt been a reason for them to fight.. But still you made a thread sayin' Itachi would defeat Jiraiya in battle, if they had to fight..

Im just sayin'.. Nahhh.. Jiraiya was far greater shinobi than Itachi was..
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Old 05-25-2008, 08:20 AM   #5
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Re: Itachi v.s. Jiraya argument needs to come to an end

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Off course there hasnt been a reason for them to fight.. But still you made a thread sayin' Itachi would defeat Jiraiya in battle, if they had to fight..

Im just sayin'.. Nahhh.. Jiraiya was far greater shinobi than Itachi was..
Provide reasons for your fallacious claim.

Don't just tell me this and that. Provide reasons why Jiraya is a greater shinobi than Itachi. In what terms?

If you have anything to back up your claim that is, i will happily refute your points - insignificant as they may be.

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Old 05-25-2008, 08:35 AM   #6
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Re: Itachi v.s. Jiraya argument needs to come to an end

All you've posted is Itachi accomplishments.. And those are surely impressive..

Itachi defeated Orochimaru with ease.. But as Orochimaru countless times has showed us, that he has a great weakness against gejutsu.. He fell right into it against Itachi and Sasuke.. He didnt learn.. Jiraiya has seen two of Itachi's MS jutsus, and I'll assume that he would be wise enough not to fall into Itachi's genjutsu..

Jiraiya speed and brute strenght is far greater than Itachi's, in hemit-mode (we saw that against Pain).. And the frog-genjutsu doesnt need eye contact, and seems to be just as powerful as Itachi's Tsukuyomi.. Im not even sure the frog-genjutsu can be heard..

Im pretty confident that Jiraiya would defeat Itachi..
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Old 05-25-2008, 08:44 AM   #7
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Re: Itachi v.s. Jiraya argument needs to come to an end

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Originally Posted by SharinganWarrior View Post
All you've posted is Itachi accomplishments.. And those are surely impressive..

Itachi defeated Orochimaru with ease.. But as Orochimaru countless times has showed us, that he has a great weakness against gejutsu.. He fell right into it against Itachi and Sasuke.. He didnt learn.. Jiraiya has seen two of Itachi's MS jutsus, and I'll assume that he would be wise enough not to fall into Itachi's genjutsu..

Jiraiya speed and brute strenght is far greater than Itachi's, in hemit-mode (we saw that against Pain).. And the frog-genjutsu doesnt need eye contact, and seems to be just as powerful as Itachi's Tsukuyomi.. Im not even sure the frog-genjutsu can be heard..

Im pretty confident that Jiraiya would defeat Itachi..
It's been said that Jiraya has never been very able with genjutsu. If the sannin genius, Orochimaru, pretty much got owned in a genjutsu... what much chance does someone like Jiraya have?

Speed and brute strength to not signify ones overall abilities. True skill, however does. In every battle Itachi's been in, you can see him quickly rid of his enemies in but a few panels. In Konoha he took on a whole a group of elite jounin and destroyed them literally. He destroyed the Uchiha clan, called to be the most elite and feared clan.

If these accomplishments to not dictate his superiority to Jiraya then i don't know what does.
Sure Hermit mode is impressive. But Itachi has the best genjutsu, ninjutsu and taijutsu in the whole series.

Susano-o as broken as it is, is unavoidable and invincible with unlimited defense and offense.

Amaterasu burns in an instant. If Itachi looks at Jiraya, Jiraya would be turned to ashes,... this the power and efficiency of Amaterasu.


I hate to think what will happen to Jiraya under tsukyomi whcih happens in an instant.
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Old 05-25-2008, 10:40 AM   #8
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Re: Itachi v.s. Jiraya argument needs to come to an end

Itachi even said himself that Jaraiya would have destroyed him after him and kisame tried to take Naruto.

Jaraiya would tear Itachi to pieces, especially in Hermit Mode. Itachi may have pwned Oro but Jaraiya is on a comepletely different level than Oro would have ever been.

Jaraiya was on a level right under being a God. I believe if there wasn't 6 bodies of Pein then Jaraiya would have obliterated him.
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Old 05-25-2008, 10:44 AM   #9
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Re: Itachi v.s. Jiraya argument needs to come to an end

Yeah pretty much from what we've seen with Susano and the other 3 MS jutsus, I'm sure Itachi could beat Jiraiya in a 1v1. It was shown that Itachi escaped out of Jiraiya's frog stomach, which was supposedly inescapable. And I'm also positive that Itachi has greater speed than Jiraiya, for Jiraiya isn't known for speed, taijutsu, or genjutsu--he's known for his variety of toad jutsus. But even then, Itachi has a good and extremely powerful arsenal of jutsus match, or are even superior than Jiraiya's. In addition to that Itachi has greater genjustu, which would rape Jiraiya in a second, greater speed, and probably equal taijutsu----overall Itachi's got the edge on Jiraiya. I love Jiraiya and all, he was one of my fav characters, but he wouldn't have beat Itachi in a fight.
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Old 05-25-2008, 10:45 AM   #10
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Re: Itachi v.s. Jiraya argument needs to come to an end

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Originally Posted by itachiisback View Post
This argument needs to be put to rest.

Itachi the child prodigy, at a mere age of 11 years old destroyed Orochimaru with but a kunai and genjutsu. In fact, Itachi let the poor sucker live to tell the tale.
Itachi at 11 years old pawned Deidara. Itachi at 11 years of age was a member of Akatsuki. Itachi at the age of 11-13 threatened the elders of the village for the safety of Sasuke.

In fact Sandaime even says - " A shinobi that can take on Orochimaru does not exist in this village at this moment " - after this quote Itachi appears in Konoha. Clearly Sandaime was thinking of Itachi. Itachi >>>>>>>>>> Orochimaru. There is no doubt about this. If you deny this then you are ignorant and biased.

You say Itachi was not trying to kill Orochimaru while you can say the same the other way around. Itachi was playing Orochimaru like a fool. Itachi did not even kill him in the end.

Now, we've been through Itachi's character and background story. Clearly, his initial interest in coming to Konoha was to check on the safety of his younger brother and to warn the elders that he still lives to protect Sasuke.

Itachi never wanted any harm done to Konoha's nins. You should be able to see that Itachi is playing around with the elite jounin of konoha.

In fact, the only reason he even took out the MS was to show Kakashi the power of a true Uchiha - this shows pride not weakness. Itachi did not need to end the fight so quickly using MS... 2 - 3 moves of his ninjutsu or 1 move of his genjutsu would have done it, kakashi would have been dead. Another point, "Why didn't he kill me... he could have if he wanted to..." Itachi did NOT even kill Kakashi under tsukyomi.

And i even see people saying Kakashi and Itachi are on the same league. Bitch, please.
If Kakashi can't take Kakuzu 1 on 1 and is on par with Hidan than he has no chance in hell against Itachi who can potentially take both Kakuzu and Hidan together.

Now i am a fan but i am basing all this information on true manga facts, i am not biased. I am not saying that Itachi is the stronger or whatever. In fact, he admitted that if he had EMS he could defeat Madara. Therefore, we can say that the only thing dictating the power levels of Madara from Itachi is the EMS Madara has.

Now for the Jiraya debate.

NOw i ask you one question. ...

In a fight of Itachi against Orochimaru and Tsunade... who would win?
Being the prodigy and the destroyer of a whole clan of elite level ninja, Itachi with his unimaginable speed wins. Even the sharingan is unable to catch his speed, his jutsu speed included.

Itachi who pawns Orochimaru in 2 panels moves onto the weaker Tsunade. THis is no match. Itachi wins.

Now what's to say that he can't take on the whole sannin crew?
This is not a farfetched claim since many have been said to be able to do so.

Itachi was given the position of Minato, in fact the very throne Itachi was sitting on symbolized Minato's position in the fight against Kyuubi.
Itachi may very well be > = to Minato who is undoubtedly > Jiraya.

Itachi being the hero of Konoha would never harm the toad sannin who lives by the live of fire.

Itachi's whole life is a lie. I am willing to bet this was one of the many lies Itachi pulled with Kisame to get out of the situation and go somewhere peaceful and rest or w/e,,,

It's not something new that Itachi lies and mostly with Kisame. Kisame even questions why he has to avoid the fight. Kisame clearly knows what Itachi is capable of. In fact, i'm sure Itachi has kicked Kisame's ass at one time.

Itachi had no intention in capturing Naruto, he never did. He came, he saw, he conquered. Too bad, Gai was a second away from joining the Jiraya vs Itachi/Kisame duel. Who knows how many anbu were following GAI....

Itachi did the smart thing. He knew Kisame would not listen if he said anything else...

Itachi is > sannin.

THANK YOU
hmmm, some of it is really true, but Itachi definitely cannot defeat Madara because why wouldn't he have already done it ;o?, Also, Jiraiya was not being serious against Itachi when they "Fought" In his toads stomach.You are biased because all you are saying is that Itachi is the greatest, although I agree that he can defeat a lot of people in Konoha but he cannot, and will not ever been able to defeat the toad sage, and claiming he could defeat all three sanin at the same time is just an exaduration of your wild fantasy.
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Old 05-25-2008, 10:56 AM   #11
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Re: Itachi v.s. Jiraya argument needs to come to an end

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Originally Posted by itachiisback View Post
It's been said that Jiraya has never been very able with genjutsu. If the sannin genius, Orochimaru, pretty much got owned in a genjutsu... what much chance does someone like Jiraya have?
Jiraiya wasnt good at usin' genjutsu, never said that.. Said the frog-genjutsu.. I'll say it once, Orochimaru, the genuis, got caught in genjutsu twice.. Thats his weakness.. He was never good against any genjutsu attacks.. Itachi's genjutsu needs eye contact.. Gai proved that you could fight an Uchiha without havin' to look into their eyes..

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Originally Posted by itachiisback View Post
Speed and brute strength to not signify ones overall abilities. True skill, however does. In every battle Itachi's been in, you can see him quickly rid of his enemies in but a few panels. In Konoha he took on a whole a group of elite jounin and destroyed them literally. He destroyed the Uchiha clan, called to be the most elite and feared clan.
True.. Speed and brute strenght doesnt explain a shinobi's overall skill, but its just as important as any skill, look at Gai.. Flashy moves, isnt always the greatest.. All the opponent Itachi has fought, didnt have any greater knowledge of Itachi genjutsu abillities, Kakashi didnt nor did Deidara.. Therefore they were easily defeated.. The second time Kakashi fought Itachi, he wasnt caught by Itachi genjutsu, (Kakashi's clone off course, but he knew better than get caught himself again)

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Originally Posted by itachiisback View Post
If these accomplishments to not dictate his superiority to Jiraya then i don't know what does.
Sure Hermit mode is impressive. But Itachi has the best genjutsu, ninjutsu and taijutsu in the whole series.
We've seen Itachi create a waterclone, not that impressive, genjutsu off course and a coulpe of fireballs, nothing Jiraiya couldnt do (not genjutsu).. Not to mention Jiraiya's awesome summonin' skills.. We havent seen Itachi summon anything..

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Originally Posted by itachiisback View Post
Susano-o as broken as it is, is unavoidable and invincible with unlimited defense and offense.
Indeed a great defense, but isnt without cost.. How long can Itachi maintain it? Probably not for long..

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Originally Posted by itachiisback View Post
Amaterasu burns in an instant. If Itachi looks at Jiraya, Jiraya would be turned to ashes,... this the power and efficiency of Amaterasu.
Just like Susanoo, it isnt without cost.. It consumes a lot of chakra.. And there must be a delay before it makes contact otherwise Sasuke would been hit.. There are several ways for Jiraiya to avoid it.. During the last coulpe of chapters, its shown that the Amaterasu was burning on the top of the ground, not burnin' through (at least at any speed), so a mudwall or whatever its called should prevent Jiraiya from being hit..

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I hate to think what will happen to Jiraya under tsukyomi whcih happens in an instant.
Once again I doubt Jiraiya would make eye contact with Itachi.. Tsukyomi isnt worth bullcrap, if there isnt any eyecontact..

Im not sayin' Itachi isnt one of most powerful character in Naruto, but Im sayin' Jiraiya would beat Itachi, if came to that..
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Old 05-25-2008, 12:16 PM   #12
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Re: Itachi v.s. Jiraya argument needs to come to an end

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Itachi even said himself that Jaraiya would have destroyed him after him and kisame tried to take Naruto.

Jaraiya would tear Itachi to pieces, especially in Hermit Mode. Itachi may have pwned Oro but Jaraiya is on a comepletely different level than Oro would have ever been.

Jaraiya was on a level right under being a God. I believe if there wasn't 6 bodies of Pein then Jaraiya would have obliterated him.
What you fail to grasp is the complexity of such a character as Itachi.
His whole life had been a lie, in fact a genjutsu directed at the audience and everyone else in the manga. Kishi portrayed his character beautifully.

To think that Kisame would question his motive of avoiding the battle, there was definitely something up.

Itachi obliterated Orochimaru, he two paneled him. Now Orochimaru had been the genius of the sannin. Everytime Orochimaru and Jiraya fought, Orochimaru would ALWAYS come out on top. Orochimaru had been the genius of the sannin and the one who gave the name sannin such good praise.

Sannin are all on nearly the same level. You say Jiraya is on a complete level above Oro. Where's your proof? Just looking at the pretty pictures proves nothing, absolutely nothing. You have to learn to understand the story and the way characters act.

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hmmm, some of it is really true, but Itachi definitely cannot defeat Madara because why wouldn't he have already done it ;o?, Also, Jiraiya was not being serious against Itachi when they "Fought" In his toads stomach.You are biased because all you are saying is that Itachi is the greatest, although I agree that he can defeat a lot of people in Konoha but he cannot, and will not ever been able to defeat the toad sage, and claiming he could defeat all three sanin at the same time is just an exaduration of your wild fantasy.
Itachi cannot defeat Madara but its been stated that the difference in their power is defined by the EMS Madara has. When they supposedly fought, how was Itachi being any more serious than Jiraya? In fact, Jiraya attacked Itachi when he had his back turned on him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SharinganWarrior View Post
Jiraiya wasnt good at usin' genjutsu, never said that.. Said the frog-genjutsu.. I'll say it once, Orochimaru, the genuis, got caught in genjutsu twice.. Thats his weakness.. He was never good against any genjutsu attacks.. Itachi's genjutsu needs eye contact.. Gai proved that you could fight an Uchiha without havin' to look into their eyes..

To implement and control genjutsu or even to escape it, you must be smart. This is stated in the manga that genjutsu is a form of ninjutsu that only incredibly intelligent nins can use.

JIraya has been noted to be the idiot of the sannin. If genjutsu worked on the GENIUS of the sannin... i don't see how it wouldn't work on Jiraya. In fact, in their encounter, Jiraya looked directly into Itachi's eyes - he didn't know what was up. If Itachi wanted to, he could have Tsukyomi'd or amaterasu'd him right then and there. Don't tell me Jiraya is faster than light speed and can defend himself against amaterasu. These techniques happen in an instant and to be able to even hold some resistance against it, as you said, you must be an Uchiha.

In fact Itachi says, "Only an Uchiha can hope to defeat me".

Gai's trick does not work. Itachi uses finger genjutsu, he could point his fingers anywhere he wants.





True.. Speed and brute strenght doesnt explain a shinobi's overall skill, but its just as important as any skill, look at Gai.. Flashy moves, isnt always the greatest.. All the opponent Itachi has fought, didnt have any greater knowledge of Itachi genjutsu abillities, Kakashi didnt nor did Deidara.. Therefore they were easily defeated.. The second time Kakashi fought Itachi, he wasnt caught by Itachi genjutsu, (Kakashi's clone off course, but he knew better than get caught himself again)

Itachi's CLONE, 30%. In fact, Itachi wasn't even on Akatsuki's side. It's no wonder Itachi didn't put up much of a fight. You need to understand that Itachi is a good guy, he was trying to hinder Akatsuki's forces.

Even Kakashi said he stands no chance against Itachi.




We've seen Itachi create a waterclone, not that impressive, genjutsu off course and a coulpe of fireballs, nothing Jiraiya couldnt do (not genjutsu).. Not to mention Jiraiya's awesome summonin' skills.. We havent seen Itachi summon anything..

...we haven't even seen a 100% Itachi but we have seen a 100% Jiraya. Itachi was that much overpowered fro Kishi to have him killed by a disease.
Itachi is the master of sharingan. Kakashi has a 1000 jutsu copied with 1 sharingan. Imagine Itachi. Itachi in the kurenai fight showed nothing of his abilities. He was playing them like a fool. In fact no one has made Itachi go as far to using his more powerful jutsu since they get defeated in teh genjutsu stage or weak ninjutsu stage. Itachi is that skilled. With a kunai he is able to kill kage level opponents. With a kunai and genjutsu he was able to destroy Orochimaru.

Again, you need to understand the complexity of the character. The pretty pictures don't just do.
In the Sasuke encounter, Itachi used MS in the start since Itachi wanted to die in teh first place.





Indeed a great defense, but isnt without cost.. How long can Itachi maintain it? Probably not for long..

He could maintain it if he had not had a disease and did not want to die in the first place.





Just like Susanoo, it isnt without cost.. It consumes a lot of chakra.. And there must be a delay before it makes contact otherwise Sasuke would been hit.. There are several ways for Jiraiya to avoid it.. During the last coulpe of chapters, its shown that the Amaterasu was burning on the top of the ground, not burnin' through (at least at any speed), so a mudwall or whatever its called should prevent Jiraiya from being hit..


Hermit mode takes a hell of a time to load, same with the frog-song. What we know is that Itachi finishes his fights in jet speed. Jiraya would be caught in genjutsu before he even knew of it.

Nothing can stop amaterasu, it burns everything. In an instant it burns as hot as the sun. Read the databook Kishi made.


Once again I doubt Jiraiya would make eye contact with Itachi.. Tsukyomi isnt worth bullcrap, if there isnt any eyecontact..

Im not sayin' Itachi isnt one of most powerful character in Naruto, but Im sayin' Jiraiya would beat Itachi, if came to that..
there we go, hope you understand.

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Old 05-25-2008, 12:40 PM   #13
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Re: Itachi v.s. Jiraya argument needs to come to an end

Jaraiya was far better in my opinion, itachi relied too much on his MKS
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Old 05-25-2008, 02:20 PM   #14
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Re: Itachi v.s. Jiraya argument needs to come to an end

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Magical_Flying_TwixBar View Post
Jaraiya was far better in my opinion, itachi relied too much on his MKS

Far better in what way?


In terms of overall fighting prowess, Itachi takes this by a mile.
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Old 05-25-2008, 03:43 PM   #15
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Re: Itachi v.s. Jiraya argument needs to come to an end

@Itachiisback..

We dont agree, which character is best shinobi.. I dont think Jiraiya will get caught by eye-genjutsu - you do and base most of your arguments on that Jiraiya will get caught.. And Itachi actually said.. Well you can see for yourself.. http://s223.photobucket.com/albums/d...t=Genjutsu.jpg

You think Itachi has greater speed and strenght than Jiraiya - I dont..

You state if Itachi wasnt sick, he could maintain Sasunoo as long as he wanted to (That a "what if").. Theres no proof that thats the case.. I serviously doubt he cant.. Just AM and TS, just MS in generel consumes a lot of chakra.. Itachi couldnt use MS at the 30 % clone-thingy.. So I think its reasonable to assume that he cant maintain SA, or use AM and TS as much as he wanted to..

Jiraiya entered hermit-mode in matter of seconds (The bull Pain summoned was punched, kicked or whatever out of wall before the dust had settled..).. So doesnt take time to load..

I havent read Kishi's databook, so all I can do is explain what I've seen in the manga.. AM didnt burn through the ground, so I'd assume that AM didnt pack the same heat as the sun.. (So there a contradiction, I guess)

There we go, hope you understand (sarcasm).. Jiraiya>Itachi...
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