Open For Discussion: - Fandom Forums
Fandom Forums



Go Back   Fandom Forums > Indepth Interests > Debates Section

Debates Section Enjoy a good discussion? This is the place for you! Only knowledgeable discussions allowed!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-01-2009, 03:33 AM   #1
maddog
Chuunin
 
maddog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Philippines
Posts: 730
Thanks: 126
Thanked 137 Times in 110 Posts
maddog is an unknown quantity at this point
Open For Discussion:

In your opinion, which is more important in making a sculpture masterpice, the SCULPTOR, or the MARBLE that he will use?


please put in the reasons for your opinion...
__________________


I HATE IT WHEN INNOCENT PEOPLE DIE ...
maddog is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 06-01-2009, 10:49 AM   #2
orvell0072006
Genin
 
orvell0072006's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: arab world
Posts: 132
Thanks: 31
Thanked 20 Times in 18 Posts
orvell0072006 is an unknown quantity at this point
Cool Re: Open For Discussion:

These two are both important,but since I only choose one,I choose for sculptor,because even if the sculptor has no marble he can still pursue a creative activity of figures or designs in three dimensions by using the hard fibrous lignified substance under the bark of trees, & even made of wax.
__________________

levro007 ..seek perfection of character!be faithful!endeavor!respect others!& refrain from violent behavior!

Last edited by orvell0072006; 06-01-2009 at 10:56 AM.
orvell0072006 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2009, 11:16 AM   #3
The Madness
Passion Rules
 
The Madness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: MA, US
Age: 25
Posts: 1,102
Thanks: 2,548
Thanked 4,648 Times in 1,771 Posts
The Madness is just really niceThe Madness is just really niceThe Madness is just really niceThe Madness is just really niceThe Madness is just really niceThe Madness is just really niceThe Madness is just really nice
Re: Open For Discussion:

The sculptor.

If he is good enough then the marble doesn't matter. But no matter how high quality the marble is if the scupltor is garbage then it won't work.

/discussionyoumudhutdfag
The Madness is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to The Madness For This Useful Post:
Miburo (11-25-2009)
Old 06-01-2009, 11:34 AM   #4
Matthekage
Missing-Nin
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 552
Thanks: 256
Thanked 141 Times in 96 Posts
Matthekage is a glorious beacon of lightMatthekage is a glorious beacon of lightMatthekage is a glorious beacon of lightMatthekage is a glorious beacon of lightMatthekage is a glorious beacon of lightMatthekage is a glorious beacon of lightMatthekage is a glorious beacon of lightMatthekage is a glorious beacon of light
Re: Open For Discussion:

You could say that every piece marble is unique and forged over many millennium under specific conditions, therein lyes great value. However, a Masterpiece comes from the hands of an artistic master. Without him/her the marble is just a fine piece of stone.
Matthekage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2009, 11:39 AM   #5
The Madness
Passion Rules
 
The Madness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: MA, US
Age: 25
Posts: 1,102
Thanks: 2,548
Thanked 4,648 Times in 1,771 Posts
The Madness is just really niceThe Madness is just really niceThe Madness is just really niceThe Madness is just really niceThe Madness is just really niceThe Madness is just really niceThe Madness is just really nice
Re: Open For Discussion:

tl;dr

rock is rock until its art
The Madness is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to The Madness For This Useful Post:
Matthekage (06-01-2009)
Old 06-01-2009, 03:53 PM   #6
Mal
Scotch
 
Mal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,090
Thanks: 12,725
Thanked 10,818 Times in 3,844 Posts
Mal is a glorious beacon of lightMal is a glorious beacon of lightMal is a glorious beacon of lightMal is a glorious beacon of lightMal is a glorious beacon of lightMal is a glorious beacon of lightMal is a glorious beacon of lightMal is a glorious beacon of lightMal is a glorious beacon of light
Re: Open For Discussion:

It's the same with sculpting as it is with photography, you can have the fanciest camera on the market but if you don't know shit, your photos will be shit.
Mal is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Mal For This Useful Post:
Kina (06-01-2009), Miburo (11-25-2009), Sevi (07-21-2009)
Old 06-01-2009, 05:25 PM   #7
maddog
Chuunin
 
maddog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Philippines
Posts: 730
Thanks: 126
Thanked 137 Times in 110 Posts
maddog is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Open For Discussion:

I would like to agree with you that the sculptor is very important. and i am also in the impression that both need to be good. but seeing if i have to take just one, and nobody is taking the Marble's side yet, i'll take it.

the Marble is the important thing in the making of a great sculpture. I agree with Matthekage that a marble is, if i may quote "every piece marble is unique and forged over many millennium under specific conditions, therein lyes great value". and here goes my arguement. no matter how good an artist may be, if the material that he uses is not good, then the result will not be good also. even a "Michaelangelo", will not accept a Marble of low quality, for it might diminish the quality of his work.
yes you might say that the good sculptor will just throw the low quality marble and exchange it for something better, or use other materials for that matter. but then you have to accept the fact that he still needed "good marble" even though he is already a "good sculptor."

considering matthekage's contention that "every piece marble is unique and forged over many millennium under specific conditions, therein lyes great value", then the marble is already with great value, even without the scuptor, or before the sculptor was even born. but the sculptor, cannot be considered a great sculptor yet, without making his first masterpiece, using a good quality marble, or other good quality material.

then i will take Mal's contention, and i quote "you can have the fanciest camera on the market but if you don't know shit, your photos will be shit.". If we take the photographer as the Sculptor, and the material is the subject of the shot taken, then the rebuttal there would be, even if you have the fanciest camera, and the greatest photographer, you will still need a good scene, combined with a good subject, to have a good photo. one National Geographic Photographer admits, that even with hi fanciest camera, he usually uses up 40rolls of film just to put decent pictures on a 2page fold consisting of a not more than 10pictures. that's because he needs to have the best subject before he can call it a good photograph.

i would like to use another analogy on the Material vs Artist scope. take a piece of metal for example. no matter how good a swordsmith is, if the metal is not of good quality, the sword will never be sharp, and sturdy. just like a Sculptor plying his trade and craftmanship on a low quality marble. it may take shape because of the sculptor's skill, but it could never be considered a masterpiece. for it will always be considered as a low quality sculpture.
__________________


I HATE IT WHEN INNOCENT PEOPLE DIE ...
maddog is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to maddog For This Useful Post:
Matthekage (06-02-2009)
Old 06-01-2009, 06:04 PM   #8
kluang
One Punch Man
 
kluang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 6,404
Thanks: 3,166
Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,087 Posts
kluang is a splendid one to beholdkluang is a splendid one to beholdkluang is a splendid one to beholdkluang is a splendid one to beholdkluang is a splendid one to beholdkluang is a splendid one to beholdkluang is a splendid one to beholdkluang is a splendid one to beholdkluang is a splendid one to beholdkluang is a splendid one to beholdkluang is a splendid one to behold
Re: Open For Discussion:

Scupltor.

With him/her/it that marble will be just another marble
__________________









To err is human, to forgive, divine. Humans aren't machines... they have souls, feelings. They live, they die, they love, they hate... And yes, they even make mistakes.....

When kluang finds you creepy and wrong then you are beyond horrible.

He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you.

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe.



Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Being Malaysian is about driving in a German car to an Indian restaurant for an Indonesian food, then travelling home, grabbing a Pakistani kebab on the way, to sit on Swedish furniture and watch American shows on a Japanese TV. Because we have no originality.






kluang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2009, 06:20 PM   #9
RNB
El Topo
 
RNB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Pennsylvania
Age: 21
Posts: 1,169
Thanks: 3,293
Thanked 1,887 Times in 822 Posts
RNB is a jewel in the roughRNB is a jewel in the roughRNB is a jewel in the roughRNB is a jewel in the roughRNB is a jewel in the roughRNB is a jewel in the rough
Re: Open For Discussion:

The problem here is that the word, "masterpiece", is too subjective. Personally, I see a masterpiece as an art piece that expresses the emotion correctly that the artist tried to convey in the simplest form it can be conveyed.

Ultimately, the sculptor must be the most important if this is the case because no emotion is expressed if their is no one expressing it. You can believe in all that personal interpretation stuff, but without an author there is no objective meaning. Therefore, I don't think it qualifies as art. That is a different discussion.

A sword is a bit different in quality. It really depends on what you wish to use the sword for. If you are using it for fighting, then of course one would need a strong metal. No sword smith could use horrible materials and make a strong sword. If the sword is art, then the material does not matter. Art is just a visual way of showing emotions. With good or bad quality materials any artist should be able to convey the emotion. The idea of art is to take the mind more off the fact that what is in front of you is just paint on a canvas.
__________________
"Nature loves to be hidden."

- Heraclitus
RNB is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to RNB For This Useful Post:
Matthekage (06-02-2009), Miburo (11-25-2009)
Old 06-02-2009, 01:49 PM   #10
Matthekage
Missing-Nin
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 552
Thanks: 256
Thanked 141 Times in 96 Posts
Matthekage is a glorious beacon of lightMatthekage is a glorious beacon of lightMatthekage is a glorious beacon of lightMatthekage is a glorious beacon of lightMatthekage is a glorious beacon of lightMatthekage is a glorious beacon of lightMatthekage is a glorious beacon of lightMatthekage is a glorious beacon of light
Re: Open For Discussion:

As RNB said, art isn't the best example. It's too subjective.

Michelangelo's David is considered one of the worlds greatest sculpting masterpieces. Yet, it is sculpted from what is considered pretty poor quality marble. The value comes from the hands of the artist and their ability to use a medium to communicate an idea. Flaws in the chosen medium, and the artists method of resolving the difficulties that they cause, can either add or subtract from the work.

The Sword is different. There's an old saying, "You can only build as high, as your foundations are deep". Obviously, the quality of the metal is going to limit what type of sword the Weaponsmith can produce, ceremonial or fighting. I believe that most would consider, unless it's ceremonial, that the attributes that give a great sword it's value come from either it's strength, weight, or the sharpness of it's edge. All are directly influenced by the quality of the materials used. Again, as RNB said, If the sword is ceremonial, it's value is artistic and subjective. The materials are less important

Last edited by Matthekage; 06-03-2009 at 03:29 AM.
Matthekage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2009, 03:03 AM   #11
maddog
Chuunin
 
maddog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Philippines
Posts: 730
Thanks: 126
Thanked 137 Times in 110 Posts
maddog is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Open For Discussion:

still nobody is rooting for the marble. everybody loves the good sculptor. been out for quite a while. Matthekage is now a missing-nin?

RNB mentions that the word "masterpiece" as too subjective. i believe that "art" itself is subjective. but "masterpiece" is no longer subjective. because before it is called a "masterpiece" it must have passed certain standards therefore making it a "masterpiece".

you may call your artwork a "masterpiece" because you are proud of your work. but before other people starts to call it a "masterpiece" also, they must see it in the light of what the art world will now consider as the norm. not all of michaelangelo's work are considered "masterpieces" by the art society. only those that passed the standards.

now, taking that into consideration, the sculpture David is not made on poor quality marble. it was made from a block of marble originally from a quarry in Carrara, a town in the Apuan Alps in northern Tuscany.* Carrara is a city in the province of Massa-Carrara (Tuscany, Italy), famous for the white or blue-gray marble quarried there. Carrara marble has been used since the time of Ancient Rome; the Pantheon and Trajan's Column in Rome are constructed of it. Many sculptures of the Renaissance, such as Michelangelo's David, were carved from Carrara marble. For Michelangelo at least, Carrara marble was valued above all other stone, except perhaps that of his own quarry in Pietrasanta. The Marble Arch in London and the Duomo di Siena are also made from this stone.**

the article in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelangelo's_David clearly describes that Michaelangelo was not even the first choice of making the statue. others were also in mind. but the Operai authorities were more concerned of the marble that was to be used and the cost of it, than who would be the one to make the sculpture.



*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelangelo's_David
**http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrara
__________________


I HATE IT WHEN INNOCENT PEOPLE DIE ...
maddog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2009, 09:28 AM   #12
kalocho08
Academy Student
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 6
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
kalocho08 is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Open For Discussion:

sculptor because he makes a masterpiece out of a fantastic piece of marble and could just as easily make a masterpiece out of a crappy piece of marble so it's the sculptor
kalocho08 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2009, 12:31 AM   #13
LightDreamer
Jounin
 
LightDreamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Age: 23
Posts: 741
Thanks: 1
Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts
LightDreamer is on a distinguished road
Re: Open For Discussion:

First off I've only read up to post 7 on this thread. So I hope nobody blames me for "re-stating" what they've already said or whatever.

In my opinion, the sculptor is the most important aspect in creating a so called "masterpiece." The marble is necessary but marble is just marble. If every piece of marble could be a masterpiece. Art connoisseurs would run around kitchens admiring great marble counter-tops going "mm this should be on display." But they don't and they shouldn't. Marble is beautiful don't get me wrong, which is why it is considered "high class" and and a inexchangable material no doubt. But it is more or less common and not that hard to come by.

In my opinion, a masterpiece is "priceless" something you would not give anything for not even if you were dying of starvation and desperately needed money.

Marble, to me, is art in the same way a raw quartz or raw diamond is. They're awes of nature, but nobody walks around with those raw materials banded around their finger. They need to be cut and sculpted into a form where people go "oh! I haven't seen that before that's wonderful." But is raw marble a "masterpiece"...meeehhh no.

Of course I still believe a genius sculptor would try their best to look for the best tools and equipment and materials to work with. And perhaps michaelangelo refused to work with low quality marble but if he had absolutely no other options than to use low quality marble would he have cast away his passion in sculpting and instead turned to accounting? I don't think so. Would he still have created sculptures that would amaze generations even today? I believe so.

And even still not every sculptor is fortunate enough to have high quality marble. I believe, highquality marble sculptures are viewed by society in the same way Louis Vuitton purses are viewed. They're only masterpieces because they're pricier and they're "better quality" but does that mean a middle-class person's purse is not just as qualified to be a purse? No. Perhaps this is why high quality sculptures are held in such rapture, for it's obviously higher pricing which can be better maintained by the "upper class"

But I agree with whoever said the word "masterpiece" is subjective. A sculptor whether highly sought after or barely known will most definitely create in his/her opinion their "masterpiece" even if they create it out of rubble it will have been called a masterpiece.

Finally I don't believe you can compare a sword to a sculpture. A sculpture has no purpose it is not a tool, it is nothing other than to be admired and loved. A sword has a purpose and needs to have a certain level of material quality put into it in order to achieve this purpose.

And finally, who said low quality couldn't be a masterpiece? I have seen masterpieces made out of soapstone and I have seen masterpieces made out of sand. They may not be as durable and they may not be able to chop people in half but they are priceless.
__________________
GUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUHHHHHHHHHHHHHH (now imagine that 100 billion decibels louder than your average fire truck alarm and you will get the summation of my feelings towards your childish bickering)

--
If you gave me the letters hrt you could give me [ea] to get h[ea]rt or [u] to get h[u]rt, but I'd rather have hurt than a heart without [u]
- GOD I love that. You could give me a hundred thousand million years and I wouldn't have thought of that.

--
All this time I've spent trying to change into someone you would love, I didn't notice you changed into someone I can't love anymore. Goodbye My King .

---

The adulation of strangers.
LightDreamer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:24 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.