Veggiegirl101

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mashed Potato Honestly, if you're going to cite Jesus Christ as a sound part of your premise, that'll automatically douse the credibility of the rest of your argument. :/

Not to be rude or anything like that, but have you ever read anything that Jesus said? Here are two things:

1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. "(Matthew 7:1-2)

"12So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets."(Matthew 7:12)

So can you find anything here unsound or untruthful about what He said?

Miles T

No; faith is bare assertion and delusion.

Love can be explained as the result of reactions in our brains. Nothing about love defies logic.

That doesn’t necessitate God’s existence. Additionally, the irrationality of ‘believing in God’ has been demonstrated countless times.

There are more than two common arguments that attempt to defend theism. The one you present there is a cosmological one, though not a logical one. Perhaps you’d like to reformulate it as a logical argument.

You are prevented from reaching the truth here by your wishful thinking.

You are blind to the possibility of Gods unlike the one of your own creed.

I suppose you should figure that out quickly if you haven’t already, lest you burn in the lake of fire for eternity.

Why don’t you use faith to make up an answer?

That’s because the Bible said so? What makes the Bible an authority on the truth?

Believe in ‘Him’ for a bunch of flimsy assertions that constitue your ‘argument’? No.

No! I’m guessing that this is a rhetorical flourish; I’m sure you knew my answer.

Show why I should take the Bible to brain.

No; being able to identify an invalid argument is tremendously useful for identifying unsound arguments without needing to consider the veracity of its premises and conclusions.

Of course it isn’t. ‘It’s true because I think it’s true.’ isn’t a valid argument. Sure; you can claim that, ‘Everything I think to be the case is true. I think that it is true. Therefore it is true,’ is a valid argument, but I was not referring to that sense of validity. Faith is an invalid tool to derive knowledge in the sense that it is not a reliable tool

I’m trying to say that an argument that depends on bare assertion does not yield knowledge. While you can put forward your faith-based claims that God does exist, one can also put forward faith-based claims that God does not exist. The same applies for any proposition; accepting faith as valid can result in the proposition being true and also being false simultaneously, which doesn’t make sense. As an infinite number of propositions can be formulated, there are an infinite number of contradictions in any formal system of faith—that is, a system with an axiom that states that that which is thought to be true is necessarily true).

“Fools despite wisdom,” eh? That is an interesting claim from the Bible. By the by, the parts of your posts where you don’t presumptuously cite passages from the Bible tend to be more interesting and thoughtful.

No, it’s not. Faith is bare assertion. Bare assertions is not a sound informative tool. Surely you don’t really think that ‘Because I said so’ is valid.

Even if only because it will increase my healthy disgust and stockpile of evidence for the dangerousness of that accursed text.

Miles T

Miburo was talking about using logic to rule something out as logically impossible. His point was that a proposition (such as that God exists and that ‘black people’ are inferior) not being a logical impossibility does not necessarily make it true.

Miburo doesn’t actually think that; he was showing how it could be ‘proven’ that black people are inferior if the burden of proof is put upon those refuting an argument, as opposed to upon the claimants.

Because the Bible says so? Ja ja ja…

The Bible is not an undeniable authority on truth. Stop citing it in the places of where you should provide your own arguments.



What are we doing arguing here!? We should be abolishing the judicial system!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Veggiegirl101 "12So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets."(Matthew 7:12)

Where did Mashed Potato not do unto another as she would have them do unto her? Criticising the use of the Bible as an absolute authority and thus wounding your feelings and ego does not spell out hypocrisy.

I can!

Veggiegirl101

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Miles T Where did Mashed Potato not do unto another as she would have them do unto her? Criticising the use of the Bible as an absolute authority and thus wounding your feelings and ego does not spell out hypocrisy.

I was using those two scriptures as examples of what Jesus has said, nothing about what He said in those two scriptures are untruthful. The gist of it is to not judge other people as in if someone is on drugs or something like that we shouldn't judge them because we do not know their situation, circumstances, what they are going through, we are not them so who are we to judge anyone else because we all have our own problems, some peoples problems are just more apparent than others and by the standard that we judge others like saying,"Oh he doesn't believe in Jesus he must be the devil.", that's wrong, what do we know about the person to judge them and say that about them? Their was once a time when those who believe in God didn't know Him either.

Regarding Mashed Potato she pointed something out and in turn I pointed out something back to her, she basically said that quoting Jesus would make the rest of what I said not credible and I in turn tried to show her that Jesus's words are sound, that they are truthful.

What I said was not meant as an attack and I am not offened or hurt by anything that she has said or that anyone else has said for that matter, I'd be pretty lame if I let myself become offened by something like that right?
What you have to say is important, to really hear what you have to say is more important than getting upset over something that was said. As in you and everyone else are more precious than whatever words that might seem offensive that you might say, I don't know if I'm communicating what I'm trying to say so well...

But my ego is not hurt because this is not about me, what I'm trying to say is that all of you mean more to me than any critical or negative thing that you or anyone else might say. It might sound strange, and possibly different but it's the truth, so if I sound like I'm trying to be superior or arrogant or anything like that, please believe me when I say that is not what I'm trying to do here at all. I'm just one person trying to tell/show you what Jesus is like.

And at Redneckboy it is possible to know know that God exist. I would of used this as an example earlier but I didn't for certain reasons. Okay well here it is, you can feel or sense God's Spirit or presence at Church, if He is their some people can sense/feel His presence there. Not everyone can recognize/sense/or feel Him at church for certain reasons I don't know all of the reasons and I won't even pretend to act like I do know. But I can tell you that it doesn't just end at church, sometimes I can sense/feel His presence at home in my room when I pray, worship, praise Him...etc. It's not a 24/7 thing I know that He is with me all of the time, and even though I can not feel/sense Him near that He is still with me but at these times it is made obviously apparent that He is with me.

Miles T

Edit: Ah! There’s more!

I’m not getting what you mean there.

I allude, primarily, to the Bible’s despicable sexism.

You have great cheek to profess such ignorance when so many bigots seek to subjugate, demonise and criminalise people for being female or homosexual or non-Christian—all with the backing of the Bible you live your life by.

I’m not getting what you mean there.

Oh, evidence is worthless and bare assertions are the currency of ‘truth’, are they? I think you know, on some level, what rubbish that is.

Not being able to explain a phenomenon does not mean that God exists.

I thought you said that evidence wasn’t ‘such a big deal’.

Insanity and delusion can also ‘just hit’ people.

It is. Not all those who tried to lead before Jesus had been ‘thieves’ and robbers. Additionally, the ‘sheep’ had listened to some of those who had tried to lead before, including some who had been ‘thieves and robbers’.

Not only is arrogance not inherently wrong, but also I was correct. Christianity does belittle humanity.

Humanity is perfectly capable of directing its own future. It’s not analogous to one falsely thinking that one is entirely self-sufficient.

I’m not getting what you mean here.

I know enough to write it off as an authority on ethics and information.

It might work against others, but you padding your posts with your dogma will not convince me.

I did not state that humanity is worthless.

I do see what you’re saying. I just don’t agree with it. I also don’t agree with this holier-than-thou attitude of yours.

‘Searching my heart’ being a euphemism for ‘accepting my religion blindly’, no thanks. I keep an open mind, one much more open than your own, which is so often incapable of seeing things without the deceptive lens of Christianity.

Save your pity and sense of superiority for those pitiable fools below you.

Don’t make assumptions about a situation without knowing the circumstances? Did Mashed Potato do that? Is that what the passage actually suggests? So far as I can see, the answer to both those questions is, “No.” Using the Bible as evidence does discredit your argument because of how this is done incorrectly an overwhelmingly vast majority time. The passage you cited said not to judge. That’s blatant folly! Sure, you can say use the ‘context defence’ and claim that it meant that one shouldn’t judge without knowing the circumstances, but that’s not what it said. What it said was very different. What that passage suggested would contradict, for example, having a judicial system with juries, because jurors judge, and judging would be wrong.

Miles T

She wasn’t suggesting that you were necessarily wrong on every point because you cited the Bible. What she said was that using the Bible’s teachings to support an argument makes that argument seem less credible; people have a lower regard of the argument. To someone who is not a Christian, the Bible’s teachings do not necessarily apply, while to a Christian, the Bible’s teachings may be undeniable. It’s like if a Scientologist cites Hubbard as ‘undeniable proof’ of the veracity of Scientology: by and large the only people who will agree with that reasoning will be Scientologists themselves.

Indeed, considering others’ positions is paramount. It is good that you recognise this. However, you must also recognise the importance of not arguing over a proposition from a position that assumes the veracity of that proposition. Arguing for the existence of the God of the Bible and Jesus primarily by citing the Bible is usually circular. The Bible must still be analysed and shown to be a credible source; it is not exempt from scrutiny just because it addresses the question of the divine.

Aye, compassion is also paramount. Know that while my words may have negative connotations and may seem outright offensive, I make concerted efforts not to hate, not to resort to irrelevant defamation and not to resort to churlish insults, even with those who cause me the greatest distress. Even if I somehow lapse into such pettiness, know that it is simply a result of a mood that does not represent my long-term outlook, and that I will probably regret it later.

If I were raised from birth to believe that Teenage Purple Laser Turtles existed, were surrounded by billions of fellow Turtists and was promised eternal happiness by believing in the Turtles, I would quite likely ‘feel’ them. Our minds can deceive us; they can make us falsely draw fantastic conclusions from an innocuous event, which we may even imagine. We can see this from all the hundreds of millions of Muslims, Jews, Hindus and other non-Christian religionists who also think that their God is ‘the real God’, who also think that they have ‘felt’ their God and who think that their scriptures are correct. What makes the Bible and Christianity any more valid than any of these other texts and religions?

jon

Because some people believe in 'sacrificing' young children to thier god(s) in which Christians believe that it nothing more than murdering.

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RNB

Sorry, I didn't respond to this. I had a lot going on in the last week and forgot. First off, that is not evidence. I mean, the mind can be tricked to believe many things, which is one of the reasons why I am not for a totalitarian government. Read the book, 1984, and you will learn much more about the idea of Cognitive Dissonance. CD is basically the idea that when we hold to contradicting ideas, the stress brought about causes us to make a quick assumption. In 1984, this was used by the government to make people believe what they wanted, using propaganda. So what we feel isn't exactly logical.

Seriously, Veggiegirl, if you want to really comprehend Jesus message then do a ton of research on Jewish history using the OT and some resource to find out what happens after the OT and before Jesus. Then, when you comprehend the relevance of what Jesus's message is, you will understand is actual message, and not some pastor who tells you to save your friends from hell. I would really suggest you to go out and buy a book called, The Secret Message of Jesus by Brian McLaren. While I feel, on some issues, he makes conclusions where things should be left alone, such as what happens postmortem, he is on par with a lot of my beliefs. A lot of scholars are beginning to realize the church has been wrong for a long time, interpreting Jesus's message wrong for a long time. The early church understood, but then when the catholic church came about, we looked at the early church and took it literal.

See, Jesus's message was to bring heaven on earth. The whole idea of Christianity is that we can't do that using our own self because we will always fail. So, believing in Jesus won't do shit if you don't support his message, which was one of peace, acceptance, love, etc. You really should read that book because it is interesting stuff. Too often do I come across Christians who want as many humans in heaven as they can bash over the head with the bible, which you really aren't doing to that extent.

I mean, I am leaving my present church because of those kind of people, and I am going to attend a Mennonite church because those people have the found the correct message more than my previous church, and AOG.

BTW: For all those who don't know, Mennonite and Amish are two COMPLETELY different things. The more conservative Mennonites are very similar, but the newer ones are much different.

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Miles T

Doesn’t the Bible call for stoning non-believers?

Anyway, I was referring to ‘validity’ in the sense of veracity. My point there was that Christianity is not necessarily true just because it has holy texts and is believed by a lot of indoctrinated people.

RNB

That was a Jewish law, which obviously did not agree with God's message because Jesus's message was one of peace and love.

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jon

I think that was Judaism.

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Miburo

You're kinda, er, sorta...no, totally missing the point. It doesn't matter what they do, to them that's how it's done. In their eyes, their god(s) are real, and they feel just as strongly about it as christians do about their god. It doesn't matter what christians think about it, those guys aren't the ultimate authority of all things religious.

And there's plenty of non-christian religions that don't partake in sacrificial rituals anyway.

RNB

I lol at the flying spaghetti monster.

Those people who created that religion are some of the greatest trolls IRL.

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Miles T

http://www.anythingforum.com/is-kill...ier-t-273.html

Post #6

RNB

Ugh, you are interpreting the Bible like a fundamentalist.

You see, Jesus was (God and) a reformer of the Jewish faith. At first, humans didn't understand God's message because the Israelites took it at face value like you are doing. The Israelites started out as being God's way of trying to purify the earth back to its original state of Shalom (or complete peace of mind, relationships, etc.) Their laws were based on misinterpretations of God's message.

So, when Jesus comes around he straightens everything out so that the Jews realize the true message. Though because he spoke in parables, Christians are also taking his message at face value and not getting the true meaning. So, before you quote laws of the new testament, make sure they are in-line with the gospels, which is where Christianity really comes from.

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