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Old 07-25-2008, 08:49 PM   #121
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Re: Opinions on Christianity

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Originally Posted by Miburo View Post
Are you serious, dude? Seriously? Just read that aloud. You're basically asking "Why is it logical to be logical?" It's logical by virtue of being logical. A=A, 1=1, etc. Come on, man. = /
How is it logical to take a leap of faith at all though? As we all agree, believing in something that cannot be proven logical is not logical. So isn't logic technically illogical.

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Look, I know the philosophical line of thought you're going by here. Descartes type shit, right? Not really a fan of his, honestly. But whatever. Using that line of thought, nothing can be trusted completely. Even first hand knowledge, because our senses can be tricked. Pretty much nothing is without doubt.
I want to make it clear this in no way is me trying to prove the point that God is a logical thought. All I am trying to understand is why faith in one thing outweighs faith in another if the leap of faith is totally illogical.

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Sure, that's a neat way of thinking and all, I suppose. But it's completely useless too. What does doubting almost all known knowledge do for us, really? Not a damn thing, and I'm sure you know it. I could use your same exact argument to argue against literally almost any known fact to put a degree of doubt upon it. You're not proving anything though, and you're not making any point at all.
I understand I am not proving or making a point. I am not really trying to debate.

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Besides, there's a huge difference in having faith in something like, say, the fact that the earth revolves around the sun compared to the a claim that has no credible supporting evidence like there being a magically powerful entity that controls all space and time, and other equally baseless things. That goes far, far beyond the default amount of doubt that is found in all human knowledge. They are in no way comparable.
How is faith comparable. How is it more logical to take one leap of faith than the other if both require no proving facts to do so.

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No one is saying you can't believe in that stuff. Just that it is illogical. That's all.
I understand that. BTW it is called skepticism, which is a term that has been butchered by people these days as being someone who questions.
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Old 07-25-2008, 09:03 PM   #122
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Re: Opinions on Christianity

Whatever man. You are just arguing the same crap over and over and over and over again.
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Old 07-26-2008, 12:12 AM   #123
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Re: Opinions on Christianity

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Originally Posted by Freshgrease View Post
From what I got out of Trey's statement must have been reading too far into it, but my underlying frustration deals with people that use logic as the sole authority for justifying an existence or means. To push it even further, it is atheist zealots that try on a daily basis to disrupt a Christian's faith with solely logic-based arguments. I wouldn't mind it so much if they were not forcing their beliefs on us expecting us to "see the light" as it were, but with their arguments comes the inevitable "he is stupid because he doesn't see the logic my way" deal.
Do atheists go to your church and give you shit or something? You think I go around telling people they're stupid all the time? (I do, but not because of their faith. XD) It's the topic of discussion. From what I've seen, no one gives a shit so long as people aren't trying to dick things up by applying their faith to things it shouldn't be being applied to.

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You'll see that Christians are diverse in their acceptance of science. It is common to believe that we all believe in "some magical entity" that magically controls everything, but some believe more in a direct intervention from God than others.

For example, there is no way the Earth and man were created in seven complete rotations of the planet Earth. We have science to prove that the Earth is billions of years old. Perhaps "days" is of a different timescale, hundreds of millions of years our time? I dunno. If man is in God's own image (as said in the Bible, and image is interpreted to be more than physical appearance), perhaps God's thought process is similar as well (though infinitely superior). Due to the similarity in the thought process and the vastness in amounts of time determined to be a "day", it can be deduced that he sees time faster than we would. Why would he involve himself so deeply in a small whip of time with menial matters of revolving the Earth around the Sun in a similar orbit for billions of years?

He could just setup the system, push it forward and concentrate more on his humanity game plan. The world needed a savior, so he sent his son. The individual human needed guidance, so he sent the Holy Ghost.
I think its just more of a made up story that teaches some sort of moral...or something. If there is a God, I'm sure he would be smart enough to tell the story in such a way that his audience would understand. It wouldn't make sense for him to use 'god days' when his audience works off of normal earth days.

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EDIT: Yeah. Descartes is pretty interesting, but we don't need to go back to basics. Sadly, its been forever since PHIL 302 (the philosophy class for non-Philosophy majors. I'm trying to think of the philosopher that said that you cannot know anything without justified true belief. So in essence knowledge is only knowledge if you can justify a belief. I guess this can go either way and knowledge is not static nor is it exact.
Descartes sucks. =p

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Originally Posted by Redneckboy View Post
How is it logical to take a leap of faith at all though?
Because one goes far above and beyond the default amount of doubt that is universal to all knowledge, while the other doesn't.

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As we all agree, believing in something that cannot be proven logical is not logical.
There's a difference in philosophical universal doubt, and claims that lack any credible support at all. In this case, the belief in God has the same universal doubt as everything else does PLUS it has the whole completely baseless claim thing going for it too. Get it yet, dude?

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So isn't logic technically illogical.
No. And this question/statement is beyond ridiculous. JUST READ IT! I mean, holy shit, dude. ^^;


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I want to make it clear this in no way is me trying to prove the point that God is a logical thought. All I am trying to understand is why faith in one thing outweighs faith in another if the leap of faith is totally illogical.
The universal doubt thing is basically ignored because it's a silly philosophical concept that serves no purpose what-so-ever other than to be a topic of discussion in shitty entry level philosophy classes for about a week or so. It has no application in logical thought, no use in the development or advancement in knowledge or understanding. It's seriously useless, and silly.

Everything is on the same playing field as far as universal doubt goes. Everything. It's like multiplying every number by one in an equation. In fact, let's do that. L stands for Logic. -L stands for something illogical.

(L)(1)=L
(-L)(1)=-L

Since the universal doubt thing applies to everything, it's functionally useless. It doesn't make something we consider logical any closer to being illogical then something that actually is illogical. It's really a stupid concept to apply to anything. I seriously can't stress that enough, man. It's extremely, extremely stupid.

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How is faith comparable. How is it more logical to take one leap of faith than the other if both require no proving facts to do so.
As I've shown, one is an actual belief that is illogical, the other is a useless, philosophical silly leap of faith that applies to everything. Including the illogical belief.

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I understand that. BTW it is called skepticism, which is a term that has been butchered by people these days as being someone who questions.
I meant exactly what I said there. : )
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Old 07-26-2008, 05:39 AM   #124
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Re: Opinions on Christianity

I <3 Descartes. I think the Bible is as loosely interpreted by the average person as the Constitution is by the Neoconvervatives. Heh .
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Old 07-26-2008, 05:43 AM   #125
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Re: Opinions on Christianity

Lol, "god days."

Anyways, there are some people out there who's sole objective is to "shed the light" on those "delluded in their faith." Science and faith should be seperated, but still have some harmony in one who wants to incorporate both (i.e; me).
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Old 07-26-2008, 10:07 AM   #126
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Re: Opinions on Christianity

@FG-You would heart some french dude. ; )

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Anyways, there are some people out there who's sole objective is to "shed the light" on those "delluded in their faith."
I'm not doubting this, I'm sure it's true. But there's people like that on both sides. Probably more so on the faith side, if anything. I've never seen anyone who's initiated conversation with a religious person in hopes of persuading them to become non-religious. Ever. Can't say the same about the reverse though.

I know I've personally never talked about even being atheist myself unless someone was being a douchebag about God shit towards me (I actually had a person go ape-shit crazy on me for not being interested in seeing The Passion of the Christ, for fuck's sake). And even then, just like debates here, I never had any ambitions to change their beliefs.

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Science and faith should be seperated, but still have some harmony in one who wants to incorporate both (i.e; me).
Assuming you don't mean that in a "teach god shit in science class and shit as possible alternatives" kind of way, then sure. There's nothing wrong with having illogical beliefs so long as people don't try to project them into anything that actually matters beyond a strictly personal sphere of things.
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Old 07-26-2008, 10:05 PM   #127
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Re: Opinions on Christianity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miburo View Post
@FG-You would heart some french dude. ; )



I'm not doubting this, I'm sure it's true. But there's people like that on both sides. Probably more so on the faith side, if anything. I've never seen anyone who's initiated conversation with a religious person in hopes of persuading them to become non-religious. Ever. Can't say the same about the reverse though.

I know I've personally never talked about even being atheist myself unless someone was being a douchebag about God shit towards me (I actually had a person go ape-shit crazy on me for not being interested in seeing The Passion of the Christ, for fuck's sake). And even then, just like debates here, I never had any ambitions to change their beliefs.



Assuming you don't mean that in a "teach god shit in science class and shit as possible alternatives" kind of way, then sure. There's nothing wrong with having illogical beliefs so long as people don't try to project them into anything that actually matters beyond a strictly personal sphere of things.
Admittedly, I haven't been following the arguments here, but when I read that, I thought I'd respond. I have had a teacher (8th-grade English teacher) who gave several short talks and had us do an activity designed to convince us of the fallacy of religion in general (although of course he didn't directly say "Religion is false" or anything like that). And modern society is pretty anti-Christianity and anti-religion, although most of the time it's not as direct as telling someone "Your God is a lie!" So there's more pressure put on Christians to change their beliefs than there is on atheists.

Also, the guy who went apeshit on you for not wanting to see the Passion was an idiot. IMO, since Christians strongly believe bringing others to the faith is their duty, it's inevitable that they would talk to others about their religion, invite others to church, etc. But if the person says no, the Christian should say "Okay" and not bring up religion with that person again, or ask others to do so. Christians, God won't reward you for purposely pissing people off, especially since it further prejudices the person against Christianity; and to judge someone for being an atheist is considered a sin, and is hypocritical. In addition, like Miburo said, you should keep religious talks at a personal level outside of church.

So there, that's my piece. I may or may not drop by again to check responses.
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Old 07-26-2008, 10:09 PM   #128
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Re: Opinions on Christianity

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Originally Posted by Miburo View Post
@FG-You would heart some french dude. ; )


Only in a platonic respect for the man. <3 doesn't mean I wanna f'ck him.
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Old 07-27-2008, 09:40 AM   #129
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Re: Opinions on Christianity

@SK--The vast majority of the world's population is religious, science just has more weight behind it than it used to.
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Old 07-27-2008, 11:49 PM   #130
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Re: Opinions on Christianity

Well, Trey, while that's a good point, that doesn't change what I said. And many people claim to be religious because they come to church every few months, or think there may be a higher power out there, but they don't live any differently from non-religious people, and many even ostracize those who are really religious. So in the end, what I said holds true.

Also, in some countries where most of the people are of one religion, they openly persecute Christians. And since we're talking about Christianity specifically, that applies to what I said.
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Old 07-28-2008, 08:22 AM   #131
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Re: Opinions on Christianity

Okay, some sixty percent of the theists in the world are Christians. Trust me, it must just be where you're from, but religion is still huge. Colossal even.

There's more pressure on Atheists to convert, because religion is everywhere you go. There are some scientists who believe in a god. The pressure's not on those who believe not to believe, because there's more folks who are on their side. They don't have to question their god, because they're taught not to. That everything he does is good. Without any actual proof he does them.
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Old 07-28-2008, 08:29 AM   #132
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Re: Opinions on Christianity

if people have something they strongly believe in then i say more to them
although i am a catholic i would say i am religious in any way because i don't practice my faith
christianity is different everywhere...it's like having an opinion for or against something and we all share similar concepts

but i think religion is flawed and always will be because of who practices it and the way they practice it
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Old 07-28-2008, 08:39 AM   #133
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Re: Opinions on Christianity

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Originally Posted by Trey
Okay, some sixty percent of the theists in the world are Christians. Trust me, it must just be where you're from, but religion is still huge. Colossal even.
Apparently, Christian's may only account for about 33.06% of the worlds religious adherents. Still, more than any other.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religions

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Old 07-28-2008, 12:40 PM   #134
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Re: Opinions on Christianity

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Apparently, Christian's may only account for about 33.06% of the worlds religious adherents. Still, more than any other.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religions
That was a third of the world population, not those of religious adherents.
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Old 07-28-2008, 07:01 PM   #135
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Re: Opinions on Christianity

I say that God is real no matter what you say......but that's what you think....if you put you whole heart mind and soul into him you won't have any questions
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