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Old 08-03-2011, 05:49 PM   #1
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Shisui, Tobi, Moon Eye and a Very Plausible Account of the 'Real Plot'

This is my idea given the current state of things - it isn't completely covered by evidence, but give it a read and see if you think it could be and if you think that would be cool. Here's the TL;DR - Tobi is the elder sage's son, he is trying to become complete like his father was and attempting to get as much power as he can in order to 'use power to achieve peace'. Read on for details.

1) The goal of the moon eye plan and how it represents the older sage's son -

The original feud between the sage's sons was about how to attain peace - through love or through power. I believe that this is the conflict we are going to see as the main arc of the story. The 'Tobi' entity, who claims to be several different people and appears to boast several different ninja's powers wants to use power - the fully powered sharingan on the moon in order to instill peace in the world, just like shisui's sharingan could influence the will of others.

Naruto will likely fight against this and say "no, love and believing in everyone is the key to peace in the world, not power - you cannot just force people to be peaceful or else it is meaningless". This will be the final battle in my opinion.

This is a pretty cool ethical problem and it makes 'Tobi's' character pretty neat - akatsuki is just his means of gathering great power in order to achieve peace in his own way. He isn't just 'evil'. He is creating a common enemy in the zetsu army to force the shinobi to work together (a la watchmen) and will top it off with his mugen tsukuyomi to seal the deal. Not a bad plan, kind of immoral but it gets the job done. Naruto will want people to achieve peace on their own, of course.

So we can see the major ethical problem from the sage's son echoed here - peace through power or through love?

So then, what is 'Tobi' exactly, if my aforementioned guess at the hidden plot is true?

Who was controlling Yagura?! - in that revealing look into Kisame's memory, it looked like Madara with his long hair - it even claimed to be Madara, but it had Shisui's eye power. Ao even claims that it was Shisui's chakra. There seems to be a serious problem here. Both of Shisui's eyes were accounted for yet madara somehow had his power. Hrmm. I see three options here:
a) Shisui was working with 'tobi' and was still alive and operational when that all went down.
b) Tobi shares the same power and very similar chakra to Shisui...
c) Shisui was somehow integrated into 'Tobi' the way Hashirama and Madara have been. Tobi's identity could be the will of the elder son of the sage.

I lean towards c). I think that the elder son somehow, using his rinnegan, found a way to cheat death and last long enough to find Madara (or maybe Madara found him - the tablets might reveal some info on this). 'Tobi' might be the older son. His will and chakra are so strong, he found a way of storing it and then implanting himself in another's body. His will of using power to control people and achieve peace was fused with Madara in 'Tobi' and they found a way to integrate Hashirama in there as well in order to become complete. They are trying to become complete in that Tobi, the elder son, wants to supplant his father, the sage, and prove to the world that great power can create peace.

So, here's the basic run of my guess at the true plot here -

Older son found a way to store his will and power, perhaps in the tablets or something. Madara unlocks mangekyo and learns of this, merges with this older son's will/soul and then continues to try to become complete. He steals cells of Hashirama and creates zetsu and now seeks the Demon Juubi in order to gain the power he needs. His goal is the same as the original sage's son's: to use his crazy power in order to achieve peace in the ninja world.


I would consider this good writing.
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Old 08-03-2011, 06:05 PM   #2
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Re: Shisui, Tobi, Moon Eye and a Very Plausible Account of the 'Real Plot'

I would really, really prefer tobi to not be madara, but at this point its going to probably be the simplest answer.

masked man is madara, tobi is the hashi split personality from using a zetsu body to which he controls remotely from his T/S dimension to achieve his goals.

That sound like a kishi outcome IMO.
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Old 08-03-2011, 06:53 PM   #3
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Re: Shisui, Tobi, Moon Eye and a Very Plausible Account of the 'Real Plot'

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Originally Posted by Konnaha_yellow_flash View Post
I would really, really prefer tobi to not be madara, but at this point its going to probably be the simplest answer.

masked man is madara, tobi is the hashi split personality from using a zetsu body to which he controls remotely from his T/S dimension to achieve his goals.

That sound like a kishi outcome IMO.
That sounds like a KYF prediction!
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Old 08-03-2011, 07:02 PM   #4
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Re: Shisui, Tobi, Moon Eye and a Very Plausible Account of the 'Real Plot'

It ought to be either one of those. My theory gives:
~ 'Tobi' a good reason to remain masked despite that we know he is 'Madara' (i.e. he isn't really madara)
~ A 'better' reason for Tobi to have been able to give nagato the rinnegan (the older brother had it)
~ A good reason to 'become complete'
~ Some nice closure for the whole power vs. love as a key to peace from the older bro's feud

It would tie things together a little more nicely.
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Old 08-03-2011, 07:08 PM   #5
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Re: Shisui, Tobi, Moon Eye and a Very Plausible Account of the 'Real Plot'

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~ A 'better' reason for Tobi to have been able to give nagato the rinnegan (the older brother had it)
Except the elder brother did NOT have the Rinnegan. The elder brother's eye was a spiral, not the concentric circles of the Rinnegan.
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Old 08-04-2011, 05:12 AM   #6
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Re: Shisui, Tobi, Moon Eye and a Very Plausible Account of the 'Real Plot'

^really spiral don't remember it like that
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Old 08-04-2011, 07:48 AM   #7
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Re: Shisui, Tobi, Moon Eye and a Very Plausible Account of the 'Real Plot'

I understand your comment on the spiral, I took a close look at the panel myself but then I thought, hey - what are the odds that it is just a drawing error and not a subtle hint that a new-eye-jutsu-was-afoot. It was pretty clearly stated that the elder son inherited the sage's eyes. I hold that the panel with the spiral looking eyes is really just too small and error filled.

What's worth considering?
~ Are you positive they are spiral and not concentric circles? Could this just a be a drawing error?
~ does their spiral-ness make them any different from a rinnegan?
~ did the eyes come from the juubi or did the sage have them before he sealed the beast? Juubi has concentric circles, not spiral eyes.

I am going to hold that those eyes are actually concentric circles, that the panel in question is just vague and uninteresting and that the elder sage bro simply had a rinnegan. We are all aware that Kishi's writing allows for just about anything to happen, but I'll opt for my little guess because it is more interesting and ties the whole plot together. :/
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Old 08-04-2011, 07:53 AM   #8
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Re: Shisui, Tobi, Moon Eye and a Very Plausible Account of the 'Real Plot'

Here is criticism of my guess from another website. I give it to you because I am awesome:


And this is somehow more plausible than Tobi being Madara? Sorry, but not everything is written/directed by M. Night Shyamalan.
Also, can you direct us towards the chapter in which you claim Ao said it was Shisui controlling Yagura? As I recall, Ao only mentioned Shisui when he recognized Shisui's chakra, within Danzou, while Danzou was controlling Mifune with genjutsu. And Ao recognized the chakra because he had met Shisui in battle some time in the past.
Here are a few things that make me doubt your claim, but if you point me to what chapter you are talking about, maybe I'll be convinced. 1) At the Kage Summit, Mei admitted that she/Kirigakure didn't know who was controlling Yagura, but she/they suspected it was Akatsuki. 2) Shisui died while Yagura was still the Mizukage, and he probably couldn't have been controlling Yagura after his own death. (I don't know of an official timeline, but Yagura was still Mizukage when Zabuza first met Haku, and that is about when the Uchiha Massacre occured) 3) Last Chapter Itachi said his love/loyalty to Konoha was heavily influenced by Shisui, so why would he willingly join Tobi, who has been trying to control the entire world? 4) Controlling someone with genjutsu is not something entirely unique to Shisui. The only thing unique about Shisui's technique was that the victim had no idea when it was happening, or if it even happened once the genjutsu ended. Madara would be just as capable of controlling Yagura with genjutsu. However, if Madara eventually lost control of him, he would have recognized that he was under Madara's influence.
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Old 08-04-2011, 08:27 AM   #9
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Re: Shisui, Tobi, Moon Eye and a Very Plausible Account of the 'Real Plot'

Older sage and elder sage is the sage of six paths?
Just wondering if you really go by age or you meant someone else...
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Old 08-04-2011, 08:37 AM   #10
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Re: Shisui, Tobi, Moon Eye and a Very Plausible Account of the 'Real Plot'

This is what happens when the plot structure is so poor.
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Old 08-04-2011, 09:48 AM   #11
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Re: Shisui, Tobi, Moon Eye and a Very Plausible Account of the 'Real Plot'

Well it's a nice stuff you got it here with this theory. I applaude you that you don't follow the KYF pattern and you actually accept criticism. Now, related to the theory: Even if Madara were to integrate Shisui into his body he would't acquire Shisui's eye powers because one eye was took by Danzo and one by Itachi. I will go with the B option that Madara has similar abilities with Shisui the same way that Kakashi's Mangekyou has a similar ability with Madara teleportation tech.
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Old 08-04-2011, 09:57 AM   #12
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Re: Shisui, Tobi, Moon Eye and a Very Plausible Account of the 'Real Plot'

The spiral motif in the elder son's eyes is intended, being one of the evidence the anime team and the volume version not modifying the pattern. Also when it was said he inherited the "eyes", it was implied it was the dojutsu powers, not the dojutsu itself.
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Old 08-04-2011, 11:03 AM   #13
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Re: Shisui, Tobi, Moon Eye and a Very Plausible Account of the 'Real Plot'

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Also when it was said he inherited the "eyes", it was implied it was the dojutsu powers, not the dojutsu itself.
Exactly. That is why the Uchihas dont have the RG cos it was not the eye they inherited but rather the 'eye prowess' which evolved over time
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Old 08-04-2011, 11:08 AM   #14
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Re: Shisui, Tobi, Moon Eye and a Very Plausible Account of the 'Real Plot'

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Tobi' a good reason to remain masked despite that we know he is 'Madara' (i.e. he isn't really madara)
Tobi is Madara. One more prove is Tsuchikage. He said Madara has a very powerful genjutsu that no matter who u are he will be able to control u. Yagura being controlled by Madara and now Tobi did the same to Konan(for the locaton of Nagato).
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Old 08-04-2011, 12:34 PM   #15
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Re: Shisui, Tobi, Moon Eye and a Very Plausible Account of the 'Real Plot'

Quote:
Originally Posted by TokenSmoke View Post
I understand your comment on the spiral, I took a close look at the panel myself but then I thought, hey - what are the odds that it is just a drawing error and not a subtle hint that a new-eye-jutsu-was-afoot. It was pretty clearly stated that the elder son inherited the sage's eyes. I hold that the panel with the spiral looking eyes is really just too small and error filled.

What's worth considering?
~ Are you positive they are spiral and not concentric circles? Could this just a be a drawing error?
~ does their spiral-ness make them any different from a rinnegan?
~ did the eyes come from the juubi or did the sage have them before he sealed the beast? Juubi has concentric circles, not spiral eyes.

I am going to hold that those eyes are actually concentric circles, that the panel in question is just vague and uninteresting and that the elder sage bro simply had a rinnegan. We are all aware that Kishi's writing allows for just about anything to happen, but I'll opt for my little guess because it is more interesting and ties the whole plot together. :/
His eyes were spirals. The design wasn't a mistake. Like Num said, the design wasn't altered (fixed?) when the chapter was placed in a volume, nor was it altered when that chapter was turned into anime.

Seriously, why would Kishi make such a grave mistake by giving the elder son spiral eyes if he meant to give him the Rinnegan? Even his editors/publishers would've noticed and go "dude, wtf?".
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