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Old 11-02-2008, 08:21 AM   #16
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Re: @ Bible People

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Originally Posted by ShinobiKnight View Post
I've seen enough.

People, avoid relying on RNB to answer any biblical questions. He's very confused.
Would you like to explain why?
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Old 11-02-2008, 08:23 AM   #17
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Re: @ Bible People

Gladly, when I come back.
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Old 11-02-2008, 11:12 AM   #18
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Re: @ Bible People

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Originally Posted by Redneckboy View Post
Technically, there is no devil according to Christianity.

Anyways, the book you are probably talking about is pronounced the "Sudopigrapha," but I don't know what the real spelling is. If you are looking for the really good epic about this, it is called Paradise Lost by Milton.
Milton created the name lucifer.
in the bible is referred as morning star or day star.

about your duality theory I don't know where you go it from but doesn't seem likely.
of course it makes a lot of sense since those cultures where influenced by hermetism which is based on the duality of everything. But I don't think your argument is supported by many theologists.
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Old 11-02-2008, 02:04 PM   #19
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Re: @ Bible People

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Originally Posted by maidenofkunais17 View Post
Milton created the name lucifer.
in the bible is referred as morning star or day star.
That passage isn't talking about the devil, which I am assuming you are talking about the one with the reference to the Morning Star.

Quote:
about your duality theory I don't know where you go it from but doesn't seem likely.
It actually does.

Quote:
of course it makes a lot of sense since those cultures where influenced by hermetism which is based on the duality of everything. But I don't think your argument is supported by many theologists.
It actually is. See, evil came from the human decision to break the relationship with God. Evil stems from man's decision. If there was a devil then why would God allow this devil to corrupt the world?
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Old 11-02-2008, 02:11 PM   #20
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Re: @ Bible People

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Originally Posted by Redneckboy View Post
That passage isn't talking about the devil, which I am assuming you are talking about the one with the reference to the Morning Star.


It actually does.


It actually is. See, evil came from the human decision to break the relationship with God. Evil stems from man's decision. If there was a devil then why would God allow this devil to corrupt the world?
yeah but your argument can be used to prove the lack of truth in the bible. If you say there no such thing as the devil, then why is mentioned in the bible so much?
if you say it was something just added by the israelites then why cant we think the same about a lot of things the bible says.
Christians claim the bible is complete truth, so if we take the devil as human influence, then why cant we say a lot of other things are.
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Old 11-02-2008, 02:35 PM   #21
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Re: @ Bible People

Quote:
Originally Posted by maidenofkunais17 View Post
yeah but your argument can be used to prove the lack of truth in the bible. If you say there no such thing as the devil, then why is mentioned in the bible so much?
if you say it was something just added by the israelites then why cant we think the same about a lot of things the bible says.
Christians claim the bible is complete truth, so if we take the devil as human influence, then why cant we say a lot of other things are.
I am not just saying the devil is not real off of a totally illogical whim. I am looking at history and seeing how the Isrealites would have responded to the writings at the time. You can't read the Gospels without understanding the culture of that time. It is the same with the rest of the books of the Bible. The thing is, you can question a lot in the Bible. The Bible is full of exaggeration and symbolism, and some Christians believe we should take this literally as if it wasn't written by humans. However, the Bible was written by humans, and was only inspired by God. So, there is religious truth in every text of the Bible. The life of Jesus is key to unlocking the religious truth of the Old Testament and some of the New IMO. The events of the Old Testament and the history of Israel is key to unlocking Jesus' true message.
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Old 11-02-2008, 02:58 PM   #22
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Re: @ Bible People

So you're like Trey, in the sense that you just ignore parts of the Bible and still consider yourself a Christian?

I don't mean to knock Trey's or your beliefs, but it doesn't really make any sense to think only parts of a source of religious truth are true. It's like Catholicism; if you just ignore or discard parts of the Bible, your religion isn't so much Christianity as it is another religion based on Christianity (loosely in the case of Catholicism).
Also, it says in the Bible that all Scripture is "God-breathed", so if you think humans wrote it based on what they think might be true, you're only taking parts of the Bible that are convenient or conform to your idea of the truth.
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Old 11-02-2008, 03:06 PM   #23
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Re: @ Bible People

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redneckboy View Post
I am not just saying the devil is not real off of a totally illogical whim. I am looking at history and seeing how the Isrealites would have responded to the writings at the time. You can't read the Gospels without understanding the culture of that time. It is the same with the rest of the books of the Bible. The thing is, you can question a lot in the Bible. The Bible is full of exaggeration and symbolism, and some Christians believe we should take this literally as if it wasn't written by humans. However, the Bible was written by humans, and was only inspired by God. So, there is religious truth in every text of the Bible. The life of Jesus is key to unlocking the religious truth of the Old Testament and some of the New IMO. The events of the Old Testament and the history of Israel is key to unlocking Jesus' true message.
And I totally support that.
The only thing I'm against of is your bold statement that theres no devil.
If you say that the devil isnt god inspired but an addition of human influence in the bible you are taking away credibility. Christians belive in the complete truth of the bible. Of course not completely literally theres things that you have to know history, like many of the relevance in Christ miracles. But the existence of the devil or not in the bible isnt something relative or symbolic.
Satan in the bible is presented as a being, with a history, not a representation of evil.
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Old 11-02-2008, 03:08 PM   #24
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Re: @ Bible People

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinobiKnight View Post
So you're like Trey, in the sense that you just ignore parts of the Bible and still consider yourself a Christian?

I don't mean to knock Trey's or your beliefs, but it doesn't really make any sense to think only parts of a source of religious truth are true. It's like Catholicism; if you just ignore or discard parts of the Bible, your religion isn't so much Christianity as it is another religion based on Christianity (loosely in the case of Catholicism).
Also, it says in the Bible that all Scripture is "God-breathed", so if you think humans wrote it based on what they think might be true, you're only taking parts of the Bible that are convenient or conform to your idea of the truth.
I believe EVERY part of the Bible is there for a reason. What I disagree with you on is how we should view these scriptures. First off, is the God of the Old Testament the same as the New (meaning Jesus)? Tell me why you believe this.
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Old 11-02-2008, 03:29 PM   #25
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Re: @ Bible People

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redneckboy View Post
I believe EVERY part of the Bible is there for a reason. What I disagree with you on is how we should view these scriptures. First off, is the God of the Old Testament the same as the New (meaning Jesus)? Tell me why you believe this.
Yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1 Samuel 15:29
He who is the Glory if Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a man, that he should change his mind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malachi 3:6; emphasis mine
I the Lord do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by James 1:17; emphasis mine
Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like the shifting sands.
There; Old and New Testament sources. And while I'm at it, to contradict your disbelief in the devil:
Quote:
Originally Posted by James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone...
So if God doesn't tempt people, it must be someone else; Christians call that someone else "the devil".

And yes, I did use a concordance for this.
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Old 11-02-2008, 03:31 PM   #26
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Re: @ Bible People

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redneckboy View Post
I believe EVERY part of the Bible is there for a reason. What I disagree with you on is how we should view these scriptures. First off, is the God of the Old Testament the same as the New (meaning Jesus)? Tell me why you believe this.
Old Testament = God the Father
New Testament = Jesus -> God the Son
A Christian's conscience = God the Spirit

In the Holy Trinity, they are the same but different.

The portrayal of God through the two parts is different, but they are the same being. Just in the Old Testament you had God the Father talking through burning bushes and performing miracles through a proxy (Moses, Abraham, etc). In the New Testament he sent the human embodyment of himself to be a more direct means of teaching. Now, after the Bible days, he uses God the Spirit to guide those who trust and believe in him.

For what I understand, In the early years, God the Father (I see as the dominant of the trinity) was more communicative in a direct means. People lost faith and the psycology of people changed. He sent a pure human (his son) to guide man as one of them. This brought new faith and such back to God. Now, as the both the Father and Son are in Heaven, our only link to God is through the spirit.

Different philosophies accept different theories. I believe the mind and body are seperate entities where the brain is the "gateway" or bridge. Thus, I believe in a physical and spiritual realm to reality.

Last edited by Freshgrease; 11-02-2008 at 03:32 PM.
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Old 11-02-2008, 03:56 PM   #27
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Re: @ Bible People

Quote:
Originally Posted by maidenofkunais17 View Post
And I totally support that.
The only thing I'm against of is your bold statement that theres no devil.
If you say that the devil isnt god inspired but an addition of human influence in the bible you are taking away credibility. Christians belive in the complete truth of the bible. Of course not completely literally theres things that you have to know history, like many of the relevance in Christ miracles. But the existence of the devil or not in the bible isnt something relative or symbolic.
Satan in the bible is presented as a being, with a history, not a representation of evil.
Christians are followers of Christ. We do not have to believe the Bible should be taken literally. I am not taking away the credibility of the Bible. The Bible was not meant to be a history book or a factual one. It was meant to center around Jesus' message of the Kingdom of God, which is a kingdom that will lead on this earth. It is a kingdom that will come voluntarily by man's choice to embrace peace and love for one another. Jesus' message was not about a heaven or a hell or a Zion. It is about God's message of peace and love ruling the earth. People think it is about a hell and a heaven because they read the Bible the wrong way. It is like reading an allegory (not saying the Bible is) and taking it literally.

Quote:
Yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1 Samuel 15:29
He who is the Glory if Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a man, that he should change his mind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malachi 3:6; emphasis mine
I the Lord do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by James 1:17; emphasis mine
Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like the shifting sands.
There; Old and New Testament sources.
Wait, but what happened to the guy who killed a whole family because a guy pulled out during sex? He completely contradicts Jesus's message of loving others and peaceful resolution. I am not arguing to say that God changed. I am saying that if you take the Bible literally you must believe God changed. The two images of God contradict each other.

Quote:
Old Testament = God the Father
New Testament = Jesus -> God the Son
A Christian's conscience = God the Spirit

In the Holy Trinity, they are the same but different.

The portrayal of God through the two parts is different, but they are the same being. Just in the Old Testament you had God the Father talking through burning bushes and performing miracles through a proxy (Moses, Abraham, etc). In the New Testament he sent the human embodyment of himself to be a more direct means of teaching. Now, after the Bible days, he uses God the Spirit to guide those who trust and believe in him.

For what I understand, In the early years, God the Father (I see as the dominant of the trinity) was more communicative in a direct means. People lost faith and the psycology of people changed. He sent a pure human (his son) to guide man as one of them. This brought new faith and such back to God. Now, as the both the Father and Son are in Heaven, our only link to God is through the spirit.

Different philosophies accept different theories. I believe the mind and body are seperate entities where the brain is the "gateway" or bridge. Thus, I believe in a physical and spiritual realm to reality.
I believe Jesus is God, and I believe the holy spirit is God. What I am saying is that God is always a God of love. The Israelites looked at the God in the Old Testament and saw a God of war and absolute justice without mercy. However, God realized this and sent his son in order to clear things up. This son told them that they got everything wrong and that the only way to truly experience the kingdom of God is to become like little children and relearn everything. The God of the old testament says eye for an eye, Jesus says if the man takes out your eye, show him you other. This being a form of protest so that everyone around may see evil in its true detestable form. Evil cannot be fought with evil.
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Old 11-02-2008, 04:04 PM   #28
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Re: @ Bible People

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Originally Posted by Redneckboy View Post
Wait, but what happened to the guy who killed a whole family because a guy pulled out during sex? He completely contradicts Jesus's message of loving others and peaceful resolution. I am not arguing to say that God changed. I am saying that if you take the Bible literally you must believe God changed. The two images of God contradict each other.
God, my misled friend, hates sin. He says so several times. I believe God was more willing to dole out serious punishment in the Old Testament because everyone who died back then didn't automatically go to hell if they were nonbelievers. Jesus, in reference to the Pharisees, once said something along the lines of "If they had not seen me and heard my message, they would not be guilty of sin." None of those people did, so they're not in spiritual danger. We, on the other hand, do have several accounts of Jesus' life and teachings, so we have no excuse. In addition, it makes more sense for God to make an example of people who won't go to hell if they die, in order to teach the people who will. The reason he doesn't still do such things is because he only did so to show examples of how he hates sin, and that it will always be punished.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redneckboy View Post
The Israelites looked at the God in the Old Testament and saw a God of war and absolute justice without mercy.
Not true. Try the book of Psalms. There're tons of verses there about God being loving, merciful, graceful, etc. They outnumber the verses about his wrath by far.
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Old 11-02-2008, 04:16 PM   #29
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Re: @ Bible People

Sorry I missed this:

Quote:
There; Old and New Testament sources. And while I'm at it, to contradict your disbelief in the devil:
Quote:
Originally Posted by James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone...
So if God doesn't tempt people, it must be someone else; Christians call that someone else "the devil".

And yes, I did use a concordance for this.
We are being tempted by our own nature as human beings, which is our nature to have choice. We also like to blame things on others because, being irrational Christians, we do not believe we should be accountable for our mistakes. So, we blame all sin on a being instead of on our own free-will to do wrong.

Quote:
God, my misled friend, hates sin. He says so several times. I believe God was more willing to dole out serious punishment in the Old Testament because everyone who died back then didn't automatically go to hell if they were nonbelievers. Jesus, in reference to the Pharisees, once said something along the lines of "If they had not seen me and heard my message, they would not be guilty of sin." None of those people did, so they're not in spiritual danger. We, on the other hand, do have several accounts of Jesus' life and teachings, so we have no excuse. In addition, it makes more sense for God to make an example of people who won't go to hell if they die, in order to teach the people who will. The reason he doesn't still do such things is because he only did so to show examples of how he hates sin, and that it will always be punished.
Why the hell did he send Jesus? I would have loved to do whatever I want and "go to heaven" automatically. By sending Jesus, it sounds like he made everything worse and put a burden on us.


You see, a loving God cannot want to send people to hell. The idea of a God judging an atheist after he dies saying that it was entirely his fault completely contradicts who Jesus was. How do you know God is real? You don't and it is based on faith alone. So for God to say, "Tough luck. Now onto your eternal suffering..." is completely out of the question. So I personally believe that God will give people a choice after they die or something so that these people can make the choice to live in God's kingdom of love and peace when they actually have something tangible in front of them. I believe that there may possibly people who say no and they will just be excluded from the Kingdom. No fire or anything, just complete absence of everything that is good because of the absence God. Personally, I believe no one will make that choice because God's love is too great for anyone to refuse.
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Old 11-02-2008, 04:24 PM   #30
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Re: @ Bible People

I'd say no out of spite. Fuck yeah.

Also, SK treats the Bible as if it's the word of God. RNB doesn't think God can write what he means, so he interprets it in such a way that makes sense to him.

Also^2, lolchristianity.
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