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Old 01-09-2012, 12:52 PM   #14716
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Re: The Longest Thread Ever v28

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Originally Posted by Miburo View Post
.....I can't honestly imagine that the whole fuck gays thing has much to do with financial shit.
See, I cannot imagine anything other then some monetary motivation. I run this shit through my head one if not a hundred times, and that is the only explanation that makes and sense. Still totally disagree with it on every level, but it at least makes sense to me. What else could it possibly be? Not from the perspective of the middle american bigots. But higher than that, what is the motivation. I cannot fathom any other advantage to it. Even pointing at lower tier political entities. Like, you cannot be an a informed global citizen, a social fucking being, without regular daily perhaps meaningful and necessary contact with the homosexual community. Unless they live in a cave eyes closed with their fingers in their ears... Just doesn't seem possible. It's 2012 and Dem'Gays are everywhere. With the noticeable lack of effort to stifle the gay community in any other respect other than serving in the military (which is another extreme level of retardation). Gays can get educated, own businesses, adopt children and have a semblance of the family unit otherwise. So from the top above the bigotry looking down I just... I don't know. Maybe its a fallacy on my part to attribute some basic level of sensibility to people who may very likely have none. But no other explanation even makes sense.



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Mostly because regular old heterosexual marriages would be equally as bad, so you'd think the powers against the gays would want to do more to discourage everyone from getting married. Or at least figure out some way to dick people over or make money from that shit. Especially since there are way more heterosexuals than homosexuals and whatnot. I'm sure they could easily jam some hardcore bullshit taxes on married couples without kids or whatever into some bill so long as they call it something like the Ultra Freedom Apple Pie Bill and it would roll right through congress in a matter of days.....
All of that. Pretty much exists today, right now. Before going into specifics, generally speaking, marriage seems doomed to fail in many cases. In my state for instance, you can decide to get married in the morning, be married by noon, and be divorced before dinner. Despite the fact that it is incredibly easy to get married and indeed because of that fact, the situation could foster a broken marriage. Being with someone day in and day out, living together for say.. six months straight. Is a completely different beast then just dating, going out every evening, spending the night over for a couple days to a week at a time. It is very difficult to notice the nuance's of any given individual with out an extended period of time spent together. I see it all the time. People get married way to fast, they think they are in love after 3 months, or one of them gets pregers (hopefully the woman) and society says they have to get hitched. These are the marriages doomed to fail. With a divorce rate in this country of over 50% (this percentage goes up about 15% per additional marriage, 2nd marriage 65% ect).... Fail they do.

For a specific example, we need not for further than our tax code. There are significant marriage penalties that work against lower-income couples. Admittedly most of the penalties depend on a wide array of variables. But, still there do exist financial disincentives. Many the programs that poorer families tend to require are the very things that hurt them in theses cases. The earned income tax credit, Food Stamps, Temp Assistance to Needy families, Medicaid and the State administered child health insurance programs. You know. Programs that are very likely necessarily for an underprivileged home survive. Are the very things that end up costing someone money probably a significant amount I'd imagine if you are already poor. It is only recently (last 10 years or so) that I have noticed any appreciable changes in the tax code, that attempt to rework these flaws to the system. As it pertains to marriage at least. Even still, its a slow and arduous process.
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Old 01-09-2012, 01:34 PM   #14717
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Re: The Longest Thread Ever v28

Axiom, while I applaud your attempt to rationalize the homophobia present in politics, nobody in said politics rationalizes anything about it. Most politicians simply equate the loudest hearsay as the will of the voting populace and go with the flow, clearly ignoring the facts.

If I was in the US and the governor of my state said "We can't legalize same-sex marriage due to financial issues", I'd scream on top of my lungs "BULLSHIT". I checked the data about same-sex marriage in NY and I found a projection of the state's economy gaining 210 million dollars exclusively from said marriages (which are only 1% of the newly wed couples) in 3 years. I seriously doubt the marriage benefits the state government has to spend to such a tiny percentage outweighs that economy gain.

Also, if finances were ever the trouble, there's 3 easy taxes that wouldn't discriminate anyone, on the contrary, it'd make things only the more equal: taxes upon properties owned by religious groups, taxes upon religious representatives and taxes upon religious services. I find it unfair that a farmer has to fill up taxes for owning and working on a farm and has to declare the costs and gains of its crops (which are essential product for any human) and anybody with a megachurch doesn't have to pay a dime for delivering a service that is pretty much a luxury. And those taxes are completely constitutional, thanks to the First Amendment. And again, you can't rationalize the absence of such taxes because there's no rationalization in the matter to begin with.

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On a different but related note, this is pretty funny. A re dubbing of Herman Cain soundbites and footage. "Tiger DNA" got me good.
Didn't notice the difference. Specially the Michelle Bachmann one, I swear I wouldn't be surprised if she ever said "and when I buy stickers for folks in prison, I bring milk, not backyard meth. It's a prison party" with a straight face.
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Old 01-09-2012, 02:49 PM   #14718
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Re: The Longest Thread Ever v28

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Originally Posted by Numinous View Post
Axiom, while I applaud your attempt to rationalize the homophobia present in politics, nobody in said politics rationalizes anything about it. Most politicians simply equate the loudest hearsay as the will of the voting populace and go with the flow, clearly ignoring the facts.

If I was in the US and the governor of my state said "We can't legalize same-sex marriage due to financial issues", I'd scream on top of my lungs "BULLSHIT". I checked the data about same-sex marriage in NY and I found a projection of the state's economy gaining 210 million dollars exclusively from said marriages (which are only 1% of the newly wed couples) in 3 years. I seriously doubt the marriage benefits the state government has to spend to such a tiny percentage outweighs that economy gain.
I hear what you're saying but... it's an incredibly depressing notion. What kind of world am I living in where the people making outrageous and provocative claims cannot even rationalize their positions to themselves.

There was a point in time, not even 5 years ago tbh, that I would have been willing to just accept that it was simply a matter increasing a political candidates constituency. But not now. If it was 100% about gaining voter support, then more politicians would be for same sex marriage. Opponents against it are now the minority, and on a steady and steep decline. If this emerging trend continues along the same tangent, the USofA will have a 70/30 percent split in favor of gay marriage before the next-next presidential term.

With no dire political ramifications plainly visible, that makes it the sensible choice. When your parties very voter base begins to move towards equality, the reasonable action from the political view point would be to follow suit. Especially when the movement is a twenty+ year long trend. I do entertain the idea this trend can specifically be attributed to the passing of the previous generations who were holding on to a level of socially groomed bigotry. And as they die, the newer more progressive generations bring with them the new ideas of what's socially acceptable. But with that, any political hopeful should be reading the trends as they develop and adjust their campaign efforts accordingly. Which somehow still doesn't seem to be the case though.




Quote:
Also, if finances were ever the trouble, there's 3 easy taxes that wouldn't discriminate anyone, on the contrary, it'd make things only the more equal: taxes upon properties owned by religious groups, taxes upon religious representatives and taxes upon religious services. I find it unfair that a farmer has to fill up taxes for owning and working on a farm and has to declare the costs and gains of its crops (which are essential product for any human) and anybody with a megachurch doesn't have to pay a dime for delivering a service that is pretty much a luxury. And those taxes are completely constitutional, thanks to the First Amendment. And again, you can't rationalize the absence of such taxes because there's no rationalization in the matter to begin with.
Totally agree with all of this. Many chruches exist as tax shelters for people/businesses. It is often the hassle free way to gain those last minute exemptions. I do sort of the same thing, with donations to the goodwill at the end of every year to protect a portion of my income.
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Old 01-09-2012, 05:36 PM   #14719
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Re: The Longest Thread Ever v28

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axiom View Post
I hear what you're saying but... it's an incredibly depressing notion. What kind of world am I living in where the people making outrageous and provocative claims cannot even rationalize their positions to themselves.
Unfortunately, it seems that speaking from emotion seems to reach people better than speaking from reason.

Quote:
There was a point in time, not even 5 years ago tbh, that I would have been willing to just accept that it was simply a matter increasing a political candidates constituency. But not now. If it was 100% about gaining voter support, then more politicians would be for same sex marriage. Opponents against it are now the minority, and on a steady and steep decline. If this emerging trend continues along the same tangent, the USofA will have a 70/30 percent split in favor of gay marriage before the next-next presidential term. With no dire political ramifications plainly visible, that makes it the sensible choice.
Quote:
I do entertain the idea this trend can specifically be attributed to the passing of the previous generations who were holding on to a level of socially groomed bigotry. And as they die, the newer more progressive generations bring with them the new ideas of what's socially acceptable.
As I said, it's all about hearsay, not facts. But disregarding that and seeing the facts, the ratio is already 70:30 in favor of gay marriage in the younger generation (18 to 34 years old), but in the leading generation (55+ years old) it's still 39:61, with the Republicans sinking such ratio (it's 28:72 for them). Sauce.

It's a great advance since 96, with only 27% of people favoring gay marriage, but the problem is that the leading generation is still there, it's still bigoted and it's still the loudest. Probably only in 10 years, with the next generation taking over like you mentioned, the situation might change.

Quote:
When your parties very voter base begins to move towards equality, the reasonable action from the political view point would be to follow suit. Especially when the movement is a twenty+ year long trend.(...) But with that, any political hopeful should be reading the trends as they develop and adjust their campaign efforts accordingly. Which somehow still doesn't seem to be the case though.
Political tip here: politicians in government are fucking slowpokes when it comes to update rights, even if people are dropping the hints for years. Just look at the date of countries that already legalized same-sex marriages:
  • Argentina: legalized homosexuality in 1887, legalized same-sex marriage in 2010.
  • Belgium: legalized homosexuality in 1795, legalized same-sex marriage in 2003.
  • Canada: legalized homosexuality in 1892, legalized same-sex marriage in 2005.
  • Iceland: legalized homosexuality in 1940, legalized same-sex marriage in 2010.
  • Netherlands: legalized homosexuality in 1811, legalized same-sex marriage in 2001.
  • Norway: legalized homosexuality in 1972, legalized same-sex marriage in 2009.
  • Portugal: legalized homosexuality in 1852 (interrupted by fascism), legalized same-sex marriage in 2010.
  • South Africa: legalized homosexuality in 1994, legalized same-sex marriage in 2006.
  • Spain: legalized homosexuality in 1822 (interrupted by fascism), legalized same-sex marriage in 2005.
  • Sweden: legalized homosexuality in 1944, legalized same-sex marriage in 2009.
Since homosexuality in the US was only legalized nationwide in 2003... yeah, good luck with the waiting. It surely won't take as much as over a century, but consider the US lucky if it happened during the current decade.


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Totally agree with all of this. Many churches exist as tax shelters for people/businesses. It is often the hassle free way to gain those last minute exemptions. I do sort of the same thing, with donations to the goodwill at the end of every year to protect a portion of my income.
Well, at least you're donating and combining the useful with the pleasant. I can't say the same about the religious leaders. Ted Haggard comes to mind, earning hundreds of thousands of dollars monthly by bashing them gays while receiving intimate "massages" from a "masseur". Making money from your hypocrisy is already despicable, but knowing that little to none of such money was redirected to do something actually useful to society just nauseates me to no end.
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Old 01-09-2012, 06:19 PM   #14720
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Re: The Longest Thread Ever v28

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Originally Posted by Axiom View Post
See, I cannot imagine anything other then some monetary motivation. I run this shit through my head one if not a hundred times, and that is the only explanation that makes and sense. Still totally disagree with it on every level, but it at least makes sense to me. What else could it possibly be? Not from the perspective of the middle american bigots. But higher than that, what is the motivation. I cannot fathom any other advantage to it. Even pointing at lower tier political entities. Like, you cannot be an a informed global citizen, a social fucking being, without regular daily perhaps meaningful and necessary contact with the homosexual community. Unless they live in a cave eyes closed with their fingers in their ears... Just doesn't seem possible. It's 2012 and Dem'Gays are everywhere. With the noticeable lack of effort to stifle the gay community in any other respect other than serving in the military (which is another extreme level of retardation). Gays can get educated, own businesses, adopt children and have a semblance of the family unit otherwise. So from the top above the bigotry looking down I just... I don't know. Maybe its a fallacy on my part to attribute some basic level of sensibility to people who may very likely have none. But no other explanation even makes sense.

All of that. Pretty much exists today, right now. Before going into specifics, generally speaking, marriage seems doomed to fail in many cases. In my state for instance, you can decide to get married in the morning, be married by noon, and be divorced before dinner. Despite the fact that it is incredibly easy to get married and indeed because of that fact, the situation could foster a broken marriage. Being with someone day in and day out, living together for say.. six months straight. Is a completely different beast then just dating, going out every evening, spending the night over for a couple days to a week at a time. It is very difficult to notice the nuance's of any given individual with out an extended period of time spent together. I see it all the time. People get married way to fast, they think they are in love after 3 months, or one of them gets pregers (hopefully the woman) and society says they have to get hitched. These are the marriages doomed to fail. With a divorce rate in this country of over 50% (this percentage goes up about 15% per additional marriage, 2nd marriage 65% ect).... Fail they do.

For a specific example, we need not for further than our tax code. There are significant marriage penalties that work against lower-income couples. Admittedly most of the penalties depend on a wide array of variables. But, still there do exist financial disincentives. Many the programs that poorer families tend to require are the very things that hurt them in theses cases. The earned income tax credit, Food Stamps, Temp Assistance to Needy families, Medicaid and the State administered child health insurance programs. You know. Programs that are very likely necessarily for an underprivileged home survive. Are the very things that end up costing someone money probably a significant amount I'd imagine if you are already poor. It is only recently (last 10 years or so) that I have noticed any appreciable changes in the tax code, that attempt to rework these flaws to the system. As it pertains to marriage at least. Even still, its a slow and arduous process.

See, that's the problem. You think these guys most have some other motive besides they're hateful bigots that are pandering to all the other hateful bigots. Because hating gays is retarded as fuck and cannot be logically rationalized. But it sure as hell can be illogically rationalized. Marriage is a sacred bond between a man and a woman, this magic book says it's bad, or whatever. They rationalize it plenty. It's stupid as fuck, but to them it actually makes sense. Just like everything else stupid people believe.

And yeah, a lot of our politicians hate poor people too. So no surprises there.


But it doesn't really even matter. They're mostly horrible immoral monsters no matter if they're simply as dumb as they portray themselves as or if they're doing it for sweet lobbyist moneys or both.
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Old 01-11-2012, 12:22 AM   #14721
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Re: The Longest Thread Ever v28

Cannot even escape this kind of nonsense in my own state, where I actually have as heard voice. Had to go to court today, and got a chance to see the newly built multi-million dollar common court house(which I apposed fervently). A state hemorrhaging money and in sever debt. That doubled the cost of public transportation, cut nearly all state funded health benifits, denied and reabsorbed 90% of current and upcoming earned pension payouts.

I am all for building larger facilities to cope with the population spike. But not when that building ends up having 40 foot high cathedral like ceilings, featuring a shit ton of heartwood everywhere... Much less concerned with the form of a state building, over its function. And the legal system would function just as well without that overly lavish palace to conduct its business. Or, maybe it was totally worth denying 10's of thousands what they earned in retirement benefits.

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I don't think I'm going to be "fuck yeah, america"ing anytime in the foreseeable future. = /
^This. Not that I had much reason else wise.

Num- Those figures are rough. Considering the rate for which civil liberties are being removed in the US, it'd be lucky to validate same sex marriage by those stats median. Only 115 or so more years to go.
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Old 01-11-2012, 02:05 PM   #14722
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Re: The Longest Thread Ever v28

Marriage is a sacred bond between a man and a woman! That's why I cheat on my wife, but with another woman, so I can have plenty of options should this current sacred bond fail me!

Also, I like getting caught doing crystal meth while at a gay bondage club, because drugs and queers are the devil!

(God, I hate politicians...)
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Old 01-11-2012, 02:08 PM   #14723
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Re: The Longest Thread Ever v28

They're just trying to experiment with what they condemn. Over and over and over again till they're sure it's evil.
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Old 01-11-2012, 02:26 PM   #14724
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Re: The Longest Thread Ever v28

We have the results of New Hampshire and Romney is still on the lead and only a miracle would throw him out. As expected Santorum fell right back when people realized how much of a douche he is.

I'm surprised about Huntsman rise, but too little too late. Also don't be surprised if Rick Perry drops out with his 0,71% of shame. Well, that's what one gets for being a Brokeback-Mountain-jacket-wearing homophobe.
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Old 01-11-2012, 06:36 PM   #14725
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Re: The Longest Thread Ever v28

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We have the results of New Hampshire and Romney is still on the lead and only a miracle would throw him out.
Called it.
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Old 01-12-2012, 10:47 AM   #14726
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Re: The Longest Thread Ever v28

So, who wanna go to Camp Crystal Lake?
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Old 01-13-2012, 03:37 PM   #14727
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Re: The Longest Thread Ever v28

Maybe someone might enlighten me on the matter, but how the fuck rating agencies (like Moody's, Standard & Poor's, etc) just cut the ratings of European countries in weeks they're getting back on their feet just to pull the rug and send everything to chaos?

Excuse my ignorance on such matters, but it feels like economical terrorism against the people on those countries, who end up paying the bill.
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Old 01-13-2012, 04:42 PM   #14728
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Re: The Longest Thread Ever v28

There are a lot of problems associated with the rating agencies. But the biggest thing is, they actually have no legitimacy to rate countries. They are right, though, and that makes it difficult to stop them. They are an indicator for people who invest in those countries/companies, and rely on the rating from these experts (Though the state has enough competent economists to see that for themselves).

There is talk of founding a european rating agency, but there you have the problem with the legitimacy again. What would be theirs? But there is also no law that forbids the analysis of the economies of countries.

The way Angela Merkel reacted is the only way to stop the agencies to have too much influence on the markets. Just say that it is irrelevant and the countries economy is not influenced by decisions of Moody's or whomever. We still have a economic growth rating of over 1% and no recession, so that shows that a reduction of the German rating would not be correct.

But you also have to see that they are right in some cases. Nothing against your homecountry Num, but Portugal is simply not a good area to invest in at the moment. Such is Greece, Spain. I assume that they want to pressure the EU to get the €-rescue going again.
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Old 01-13-2012, 05:55 PM   #14729
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Re: The Longest Thread Ever v28

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There are a lot of problems associated with the rating agencies. But the biggest thing is, they actually have no legitimacy to rate countries.
The thing I'm more concerned about is the fact Standard & Poor's used the guillotine in the end of a week where there was a lot of economical recovery for European countries. The agency could've waited a little more to actually have a legitimate reason for the cuts instead of looking like a troll.

About their legitimacy...

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They are right, though, and that makes it difficult to stop them. They are an indicator for people who invest in those countries/companies, and rely on the rating from these experts (Though the state has enough competent economists to see that for themselves). There is talk of founding a european rating agency, but there you have the problem with the legitimacy again. What would be theirs? But there is also no law that forbids the analysis of the economies of countries.
Such law to limit the scope of rating agencies is vital in the economical turmoil we're living in. That's why I'm in favor of having an European rating agency IF the scope is limited to country/union companies (not even countries), like S&P (among others) rating US companies only and the European agency rating European companies only.

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The way Angela Merkel reacted is the only way to stop the agencies to have too much influence on the markets. Just say that it is irrelevant and the countries economy is not influenced by decisions of Moody's or whomever. We still have a economic growth rating of over 1% and no recession, so that shows that a reduction of the German rating would not be correct.
Yeah, but not everyone is Germany, like you mention later. I speak for Portugal, we don't need any more money or further austerity measures, we just need stability to stay on the boat. Portugal can't simply say "oh, you agencies are nothing" because they're precisely stripping us of what we need.

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But you also have to see that they are right in some cases. Nothing against your homecountry Num, but Portugal is simply not a good area to invest in at the moment. Such is Greece, Spain. I assume that they want to pressure the EU to get the €-rescue going again.
I'll correct and say that those countries are not good areas for average economists to invest in at the moment. Any economist with enough wits and courage will see those countries as golden opportunities to have them by the balls.

You build some factory there and they'll worship you like a god. Of course profit will be scarce in the near future, but at the long run it'll pay off because those countries will give special benefits for helping them in a time of need. That's what I assume the Chinese who are buying almost everything have in mind, most companies they're buying look like failsauce but give it time and you'll see China-Europe commercial relationships heavily benefiting the former.

About pressuring further the crisis... did the guys running those agencies suddenly forget their XX century history classes?
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Last edited by Numinous; 01-13-2012 at 05:56 PM.
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Old 01-13-2012, 07:44 PM   #14730
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Re: The Longest Thread Ever v28

I'm not too concerned - all of global economics seems to be one giant shell game. If everyone was to call in what was owed, we'd probably have under 10,000 people with actual money left.
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